Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

That's because you're correct: it is a terrible location for a stadium.

So why does it keep coming to the forefront?

I submit that it is because the politicians are touting it for their own reasons, not because it is an intrinsically good location for such a facility.

Why are they doing that? I can offer a few suggestions:

- they are intellectually lazy, and have given no consideration to the practical aspects of siting a major public facility there
- the site is owned by the feds, hence they think it will be easy/cheap to acquire (neither is true)
- they are either ignorant of or are thinking they can deal with the Indian land claim issue by throwing money at it
- doing something on the site helps cover up another political embarrassment: the abandonment on a military housing center with no plan to deal with the consequences
- they rely on the Commonwealth Games proposal for the site, without realizing that it was equally flawed in its reasoning

Shannon Park represents the most visible location for a stadium which could translate into ticket sales. If a stadium were to be built there it would no doubt spur major development from Tufts Cove to Magazine Hill. Being a waterfront location there is great potential for a boardwalk, shops, restaurants/bars, condos etc. Perhaps another King's Wharf would spring up? The access from the bridge and westbound on the 111 can be improved upon. Dartmouth Crossing is a good location but highway access is no better and people would not be walking to restaurants etc. as the few family restaurants in DC are very spread out.

[wespidel]

MonctonRad I`m a CFL fan first and I know you are compassion about the CFL landing in Moncton which I respect and I kniow you are also very proud of what Moncton has done and should be. I also do agree with what you said about the design of Moncton`s stadium which I eluded to before. MoctonRad I sat on the smaller side and I really liked it during Touchdown Atlantic I, which I believe should have been made a lot bigger. But unfortunately like you said they screwed up building it. By the way I love Moncton and have made a lot friends in Moncton over the years and have a good friend who I stayed with during Touchdown Atlantic I, who owns a construction company in Moncton. MonctonRad I know Moncton stadium can expanded permanently to 27,000 seats but apparently not on the smaller side of the stadium. MonctonRad I believe Halifax could make the same mistake and not build a CFL model stadium and go cheaper which will not attract a potiental CFL owner or any other professional sports franchise or major concerts so I believe you are safe. I was hopeful they would build a major stadium which I think if build right they could build for 85 to 100 million but I believe now that this will not happen. Good Luck and I will be at TiychDown Atlantic II cheering for the stamps because my son has stampeder season tickets. I also wanted to comment on the great job Moncton did hosting the first CFL regular season game never held in Atlantic Canada and how great a job your Mayor has done and the people of Moncton and especially the Moncton Highshool football kids. It was superb!

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Fenwick I somewhat agree with you on Shannon park, it not being the best site but I believe there are politics involved with the Shannon Park site. I would like to see it personally downtown Halifax, but where!

I don't know of many places near downtown Halifax. There are a couple but I don't think that it will happen. One problem with a location close to downtown is that the land will be expensive and it should be a landmark type of building. The HRM really can't afford an iconic type of stadium that would look good on the waterfront (there is only one site with enough room - next to the Via Station where the unused train tracks are).

The list provided by MonctonRad is actually much better than Shannon Park:

1) - Dartmouth Crossing (excellent access, lots of nearby restaurants and activities, transit options can easily be improved).
2) - Mainland North Common (would fit in well with existing recreational facilities on site, access problematic but perhaps could be improved since it is so close to the bi-hi).
3) - CFB Halifax properties in the north end of the city (probably the best option if everyone really wants the stadium on the peninsula).

Except I would reverse the order. However, #3 doesn't get much support from people on this thread, so I would go with #2 and then #1 on MonctonRad's list.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by wespidel

MonctonRad I believe Halifax could make the same mistake and not build a CFL model stadium and go cheaper which will not attract a potiental CFL owner or any other professional sports franchise or major concerts so I believe you are safe. I was hopeful they would build a major stadium which I think if build right they could build for 85 to 100 million but I believe now that this will not happen.

I don't think that you should be too discouraged at this point. Even if Halifax doesn't spend that much money to start with, if a stadium is designed so that it can be expanded then it might become such a stadium in the future.

Even a $60 million dollar stadium is a starting point which the HRM doesn't have right now. The Molson Percival Stadium was expanded once it was shown to be a good CFL venue.

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by wespidel

MonctonRad I`m a CFL fan first and I know you are compassion about the CFL landing in Moncton which I respect and I kniow you are also very proud of what Moncton has done and should be. I also do agree with what you said about the design of Moncton`s stadium which I eluded to before. MoctonRad I sat on the smaller side and I really liked it during Touchdown Atlantic I, which I believe should have been made a lot bigger. But unfortunately like you said they screwed up building it. By the way I love Moncton and have made a lot friends in Moncton over the years and have a good friend who I stayed with during Touchdown Atlantic I, who owns a construction company in Moncton. MonctonRad I know Moncton stadium can expanded permanently to 27,000 seats but apparently not on the smaller side of the stadium. MonctonRad I believe Halifax could make the same mistake and not build a CFL model stadium and go cheaper which will not attract a potiental CFL owner or any other professional sports franchise or major concerts so I believe you are safe. I was hopeful they would build a major stadium which I think if build right they could build for 85 to 100 million but I believe now that this will not happen. Good Luck and I will be at TiychDown Atlantic II cheering for the stamps because my son has stampeder season tickets. I also wanted to comment on the great job Moncton did hosting the first CFL regular season game never held in Atlantic Canada and how great a job your Mayor has done and the people of Moncton and especially the Moncton Highshool football kids. It was superb!

I believe that Moncton did an excellent job with the budget it had.
I am sure that the main idea for expanding Moncton's stadium between the goallines is to lower the playing field and place seats on top of the existing track. This would be considerably less expensive than building up with the support structure that would be required. The decks in Moncton are purposely placed far from the sidelines (and to some degree even the track) with this in mind. All anyone has to do is to look at aerial photos of the stadium to see this is the case. Depending on how close they want to get to the sidelines, I'm guessing they could relatively cheaply add 3500 to 4000 seats.

[c-way-dude]

A while back, Wespidel quoted the mayor saying the stadium budget could be as high as $2200/seat. At that rate, the plan must be for a 25000 seat stadium if the overall budget for the stadium is, at most, $60 million.
25000 seats x $2200/seat = $60 million

[wespidel]

You`re right on the 60 million stadium as a starting point but it`s 2011 Fenwick! In 1978 I believe when Edmonton was only 480 thousand people they built a 45 thousand seat stadium which they expanded to over 60 thousand. I believe Halifax should want at least to spend 80 to 85 million which should build them a stadium similar to BMO field but somewhat bigger, closer to 25 thousand seats. Do you think they can for 80 to 85 million? Also I agree with Mainland Commons as the best sight.
Fenwick I meant to tell you there is a steel metal company in Burnside and I wonder what their capabilities are. Are you familar or is it more of a specialized sheet metal, smaller project company. It`s Cherubini Metal Works Ltd., they advertise Structural & Miscellaneous metals. Anyway are you familiar with them. There on Joseph Zatzman. I don`t know if there comparable to Ocean Steel in NB. But I strongly believe if they build it right and buy direct from local material suppliers and have a local company build it and they don`t farmed it all out on contract to one large company like PCL who like to double their profit, than I believe Halifax could build a CFL model multi purpose 25 thousand permanent seat stadium with skyboxes, etc. for 85 million. Do you agree Fenwick or would it be more feasible to build it out of concrete to bring it in around 80 million.


SPYDER* What`s good is that stadium talk is really haeting up in Halifax and it may heat up a lot more or a lot less after March 3rd decision which is not far away. I believe the key to the final potiental finished product, ending up being a better stadium than what Halifax are talking about, is if there is a serious CFL potiental owner with enough money that could make the difference between a 60 million dollar stadium or a 80 to a 100 million stadium. That I believe is the most important element, that is really at this stage unknown which I believe we all will soon know!

[wespidel]

But I believe that you be a fixed type bowl structure, scaled down with features with not as many skyboxes, maybe only on one side. Something like the temporary BC lion stadium in design and size but scaled up to permanent status!

[fenwick16]

Wespidel, I don't know enough to answer your question but I agree that there are likely Maritime Companies that can build a stadium for less money than PCL. Based on stadiums that have been built recently in North America and the UK it seems as though quite a significant structure can be built in the $60 - $80 million range. But I am not entirely sure why there is such a discrepancy between the high cost stadiums and low cost stadiums.

Quite a few stadiums seem to be a combination of concrete and steel. If you look at the InfoCision stadium below, the lower section is concrete and the upper tier is steel. This stadium was built for $61 million and seats about 27,000.

(source: http://www.crimsonquarry.com/2009/8/6/980345/an-early-look-at-akron )


PS: I think that the following group of companies could do a complete design and construction of a stadium. The Hardman group was also the developer for the Halifax Metro Centre. If you look at the companies behind the Halifax MetroPark then at least two of these have experience in stadium design and construction that I know of: (source: http://www.cpci.ca/?sc=potm&pn=monthly32003 )
Developer: The Hardman Group - Halifax, Nova Scotia
Architects: Duffus Romans Kundzins Rounsefell Architects Ltd. - Halifax, Nova Scotia
Structural Consultants: Campbell Comeau Engineering Limited - Halifax, Nova Scotia
General Contractor: McAlpine Construction - Halifax, Nova Scotia
Precast Fabricator: Strescon Limited - Saint John, New Brunswick

The Halifax MetroPark is a significant structure and was built for about $10 million. The new Canada Games Centre was built for around $45 million dollars (I am not sure who built it). I think that it would be great to see a Maritime company design and build a stadium in the Halifax area.

I like the fact that Camden Yards in Baltimore, which is a baseball field, was built for $110 million in 1991 - 1992. This was considered to be a low cost MLB stadium at the time but has become the model of how baseball stadiums should be built. I have been to a baseball game in this stadium and it is a beautiful stadium. This is what I hope will happen in Halifax - a low cost football stadium will be built and designed by a Maritime company that will be very popular to fans. Many low cost US university football stadiums have become landmark structures - for example the Yale Bowl, Harvard Bowl, Rose Bowl and many others ...

[fenwick16]

Here is an image that Lucky Lukas (I don't know him) posted on a different online forum called skyscrapercity. He has an interesting post at this link about stadium costs - http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=46827483

(source: Lucky Lukas at skyscrapercity)

[wespidel]

Yes you`re right I met the architect who was involved in building the Halifax Canada Games Centre and he gave me his card, at the opening of the centre and we talked about a stadium. He believed also between 85 to 100 million to build a newer look stadium with a partial transparent skylight styled roof, that could seat 25,000 people. As well he agreed with a open endzone concept built stadium.


Fenwick, do you believe what you have shown and displayed on stadium costs, could be built today for the same price, around 60 million. So than if Halifax were to go with a permanent modular type, fixed bowl structured stadium, like BC lion`s temporary model but better built, do you believe it would be as well made as what you have just illustrated construction wise.


SPYDER* THE REASON I ASK THIS QUESTION IS BECAUSE HFX. WAS SERIOUSLY LOOKING AT THIS TYPE OF STRUCTURE.

[fenwick16]

The InfoCision stadium was completed about 18 months ago. I am not sure how much construction costs have increased during that time. Most of the stadiums shown in the cost image above are quite recent.

Regarding the modular stadium that you mentioned, do you know what it would cost? If it is similar to the Cardiff City Stadium then it was built for £48 and was completed in 2009. I think that would be about $80 million dollars. But based on the cost figure given by Mayor Kelly in the media, it sounds like he is thinking of something that is less expensive.

I hope that before a stadium is built in Halifax that someone from the HRM staff will visit several of the low cost stadiums to see how they were built at such a low cost.

[FuzzyWuz]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This is a great example of twisting someone's words around. I stated the opposite of what you stated. This is what I stated:

I wrote badly. I wasn't quoting/misquoting you or anyone in particular. I was feeling anxiety about what I felt was the tenuousness of the money situation. My first reaction was to feel that we should not do or say anything to risk money coming from the government. I know it's a back and forth process but it's a stress inducing one when I look at it. I'm sorry to have offended you.

[FuzzyWuz]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

No it wasn't being rude on my part and you are totally wrong. If you go back and read what I stated and his response you will see that he completely twisted what I said.

The term "Pride goeth before the fall" is a biblical term that is an insult and personal threat.

Personal threat? I just meant that in my experience working with NFPs who need to work with the government for funding, if you cross the wrong fed in a bad mood on the wrong day they have the discretion to make things difficult. I was worried on behalf of this group and the goal. Threat? Like "I'm gonna assault you"? That kind of threat? no. God.

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by wespidel

But I believe that you be a fixed type bowl structure, scaled down with features with not as many skyboxes, maybe only on one side. Something like the temporary BC lion stadium in design and size but scaled up to permanent status!

I would also prefer a stadium with 25000 seats along the sidelines and open endzones. I doubt that one could be built for $60 million. That is why I figure there is a better chance of a permanent version of Empire Stadium, or possibly something like old Varsity Stadium in Toronto. Varsity Stadium was a single deck horseshoe-shaped stadium built around a track. Perhaps add some luxury boxes, a media centre, and a roof covering the seats.

[ATL Stadium]

I think at this point with the Winter Games on its final week feels are high regarding the prospect of a Stadium. The Great Big Sea concert last night apparently drew a crowd of around 15000 in the Parade Sq....dont you think this would have drawn even more in an outdoor stadium even in the winter!?!?
'
The "naysayers" will obiviously be hawking the Stadium prices tag so being able to come up with 25000 seater for some sort of a bargain basement price tag would be a great selling feature. If the success and Pro Sports come later so be it.....my hope would be for a 30,000 seat with expandable end zones and a roof of some sort...not DOME but a roofed section for the stands...it just helps selling tickets for any events.

Cost should be as low as possible with ad-ons later or by private sales for boxes etc....concessions.

[ATL Stadium]

The Temporary stadium constructed for the BC Lions....is interesting....the original design was costed at $14 million.....not sure what it ended up at.
The design was for two 10,000 seat sides with 3500 in each end zone= 27000
I have no idea on the life cycle of a temporary stadium......but find it very interesting....perhaps compelling....
I have heard the Moncton site was somewhere around +$20 million....and its galvanized steel and aluminum, plastic bucket seats....basically foundations with bolt together stands.....and of course only 10,000 seats.
I was there for the CFL game last summer and the stadium sure felt solid enough....again no idea on life cycle...but the things that were grossly lacking were the other infrastructure items that add to the game/event experience..... washrooms/concessions/roof for bad weather/...
Halifax will need to address all of that and more....

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

I think at this point with the Winter Games on its final week feels are high regarding the prospect of a Stadium. The Great Big Sea concert last night apparently drew a crowd of around 15000 in the Parade Sq....dont you think this would have drawn even more in an outdoor stadium even in the winter!?!?

The Parade was PACKED for that show. I left a bit early because my legs were about to freeze off and the crowd stretched all the way back to the church, plus there would have been more people inside at the Dome.

I think the crowd was the result of a perfect storm of well-known regional band, central location of the Parade, and being a free show tied to a decently-sized event. Hard to know if a comparable crowd would show up for a stadium show in the winter if said stadium was further afield or if the show wasn't free, though for a popular act I think it'd be very possible.

[q12]

It would be great if we could get a list of sites that would be reasonably easy to acquire in time for the 2015 FIFA event.

I still prefer close to downtown and university's. However this seems to be unlikely especially with the NIMBYS.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by q12

It would be great if we could get a list of sites that would be reasonably easy to acquire in time for the 2015 FIFA event.

I still prefer close to downtown and university's. However this seems to be unlikely especially with the NIMBYS.

It seems to me that the list we came up with of 'easy' sites, was something like this:

• Shannon Park;
• Dartmouth Common;
• Bedford 'Common';
• Exhibition Park;
• Bayers Lake.

That's the only list I can recall we came up with many months ago.