Halifax Stadium Discussion

[brettinhalifax]

account deleted

[FuzzyWuz]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

That doesn't fit at all. What does pride have to do with this? If a Federal Minister wants to support a stadium at Shannon Park then it is possible that is what the HRM will get. But saying "Pride goeth before a fall" just makes me shake my head.

I was thinking that saying to the minister, 'don't tell us where we're gonna put the stadium you're paying for' would be not a good idea. That was where the pride quote was coming from.

[brettinhalifax]

account deleted

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuz

I was thinking that saying to the minister, 'don't tell us where we're gonna put the stadium you're paying for' would be not a good idea. That was where the pride quote was coming from.

This is a great example of twisting someone's words around. I stated the opposite of what you stated. This is what I stated:

The fact that Defence Minister MacKay is touting it as a good location is a point in Shannon Park's favour, especially if it could receive some federal funding. If a ferry terminal could be built there then maybe the regular Metro Transit ferries could operate just during events which usually occur at different times than the peak ferry schedule. It might not cost too much just for a ferry terminal (?). Then if a few restaurants and shopping areas could spring up in that area also then it would be that much better.

In any case isn't the best location yet to be decided? And stating that the federal government is going to pay for a stadium in Halifax seems like a very simple interpretation of Peter MacKay's statement. Maybe you should just read what people state instead of putting your own spin on other people's words.

[wespidel]

I agree with you 100%! The only problem is what will Halifax build, a 60 million dollar stadium or less or the stadium they should build, a major 100 million dollar stadium and if built right, should be a pretty nice 25,000 permanent seat stadium, hopefully with all the amenities and open endzones to expand for a Grey Cup and other major events. I hope that`s the direction they will go and if not a 60 million dollar stadium would be less than what BMO field is, which is not big enough!

[halifaxboyns]

While I dislike making posts where I take a shot at anyone, I have to say fenwick your last post taking 'fuzzywuz' to 'task' was a little rude. Even I got where he was going and I'm never on the ball before at least 1 tripple tripple. I think he was just being sarcastic, something which I love to do. It's not meant to be rude, I thought he was trying to lighten the mood - sometimes we all get too wound up about this thread. Let's all breath and keep it civil and I'd suggest that when we're being sarcastic we try to make sure it's noted (like my fav: <sacrasm>).

That being said, back to the topic and I agree Brett - excellent comments. I was thinking about this stadium and wespidel's last post as well. My concern with all the pressure on both the Provincial and Municipal governments (in terms of the current financial situation) leads me to go believe they won't go totally cheap, but it won't be top of the line. Which means it won't be the best possible stadium it could be.

If that's the case and we're going to go middle of the road, as much as I share Mr. McKay's perspective on Shannon Park being a great spot - if it's not a great stadium, I wouldn't want it on that spot. If we're going to use the spot to 'showcase' the stadium as a great view up the harbour and then its not a well built design - what's the point? I don't know what others think, I would be interested to hear. But if they are going to go average or cheap, I'd say it might be better off in Dartmouth Crossing. But if they do go with a fully expandable stadium, well designed and best for the $, then SC should be okay.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

While I dislike making posts where I take a shot at anyone, I have to say fenwick your last post taking 'fuzzywuz' to 'task' was a little rude. Even I got where he was going and I'm never on the ball before at least 1 tripple tripple. I think he was just being sarcastic, something which I love to do. It's not meant to be rude, I thought he was trying to lighten the mood - sometimes we all get too wound up about this thread. Let's all breath and keep it civil and I'd suggest that when we're being sarcastic we try to make sure it's noted (like my fav: <sacrasm>).

No it wasn't being rude on my part and you are totally wrong. If you go back and read what I stated and his response you will see that he completely twisted what I said.

The term "Pride goeth before the fall" is a biblical term that is an insult and personal threat. I think you are interpreting pride to be something good. That is obviously not how he intended it. This is the meaning of that phrase - http://bible.cc/proverbs/16-18.htm

This wasn't a mistake on his part since he stated it and then in another post explained how it was intended. This is a forum where people should be able to state their views without being threatened or have their meaning completely twisted around. What location I think is best for a stadium is a mote point that has nothing to do with pride.

[fenwick16]

The fact that Defence Minister MacKay is touting it as a good location is a point in Shannon Park's favour, especially if it could receive some federal funding. If a ferry terminal could be built there then maybe the regular Metro Transit ferries could operate just during events which usually occur at different times than the peak ferry schedule. It might not cost too much just for a ferry terminal (?). Then if a few restaurants and shopping areas could spring up in that area also then it would be that much better.

When I posted this, it wasn't intended to be a sarcastic remark. I meant it the way I stated it. But since I am being attacked as if I was making a statement against Shannon Park then I will state why I don't like that location:

- This is a location that is intended almost entirely for vehicular traffic. The MacKay Bridge is essentially a limited access highway across the harbour. People can't walk across that bridge or even ride across it on a bicycle. There will likely never be any type of high-frequency, regularly scheduled public transit. Stating that shuttles can be used still doesn't make it a good location since even the shuttles will be going too far to get there.
- There isn't a large population in the immediate area that can walk to Shannon Park. It is essentially an island surrounded by a highway, a large body of water and industrial buildings.
- There are few amenities in the general area that people can walk to and there likely won't be in the future. There is a reason why this site hasn't been re-developed into a residential or commercial area. If this is such a great location then why hasn't a developer pushed to redevelop it?
- This won't be seen as a good location by either Saint Mary's University or Dalhousie University (if they get back into the CIS football program). So I don't think they will want to host a Vanier Cup there.

I only like Shannon Park for a few reasons - it would be cheap land with lots of space for a stadium, and it would be highly visible. But being highly visible may not be enough since it is isolated except by car. Even by car, it isn't a great location - if you miss the exit to the stadium then you will have to go all the way over to Halifax and back again to get turned around (I can see this happening frequently, especially for visitors who are not familiar with the area).

My concerns with Shannon Park have nothing to do with "pride" as fuzzywuz stated. I think that there is a high possibility that if a stadium is built at Shannon Park that it will be seen as a mistake, which the HRM will have to live with for decades. I keep looking at that location on a map and thinking that maybe I am wrong since so many people seem to like it - http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=halif...-63.615303&spn=0.04327,0.132093&t=h&z=14 . But no matter how hard I try to convince myself otherwise, I always end up thinking that Shannon Park is not a good location for a stadium.

Several people have stated that studies done for the Commonwealth Game prove it to be a suitable location. However, I read an independent study (after the Games had been abandoned) that stated that it was a less than ideal site.

Why has Dartmouth already been chosen as the location? There are only two locations that are being mentioned - both in Dartmouth. Aren't the upcoming studies intended to chose a location? This doesn't seem to be an unbiased selection by my interpretation.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

The most recent budget update is in this pdf

Current year deficit is $244 million (down from the initial forecast of $563 million) and capital spending is $550 million ($30 million under the $580 million budgeted) So taxation rates aside, NS is doing pretty good. NS deficit is about $250 per person, NB deficit is about $1,000 per person and ON is nearly $1,500 per person.

But that $30 million surplus in the capital budget sure looks like it would cover the provincial portion of a stadium. Defense Minister Peter MacKay just pointed out a nice piece of unused part of CFB Halifax that would be good for a stadium. I know I have rose coloured glasses on, but a stadium in HRM is looking more possible every day.

I actually agree that the possibility is quite strong, but largely I see that for two reasons: 1) the Mayor seems to have finally realized that he needs to push some of these issues rather than just follow or he may be in trouble next election given some of the names that have muttered about running against him and 2) unlike for the NS government who might take heat for giving money to a stadium, I see this as a vote getting for the Tories, given that the announcement could be made as part of an election run.

Having said that, this thread has now officially gone off the rails and I am joining the ranks of those who are abandoning it.

[wespidel]

Fenwick is very valuable to this site who I learned to respect a lot after we had a disagreement which we resolved. I think all of us should try hard to respect each others posts and try are best to get along because I believe we all mean well and bring a lot of interesting stadium opinions to the table. I believe all of us must make sure we don`t insult or tend to come across being somewhat rude and like Fenwick said he views are not anyway intended to be rude or insult anyone, only to defend his strong opinion which he believes to be factual and accurate, which is ok. Lets continue some great back to back opinions so we all can contribute to this great site and hopefully have enough influence on city council to have Halifax build a decent stadium.


SPYDER*

[q12]

For the sake of discussing Halifax's future stadium, let's all try not to get too serious on here. Let bygones be bygones and for those of you like me who would like to see this stadium built, let's try to keep the discussion positive with helpful suggestions on where, how big, how much. If you guys want to pick each other apart use private message.

Now for some news:

http://thechronicleherald.ca

Private partners must step up if a Halifax stadium is to be built

By ROGER TAYLOR
Sat, Feb 19 - 7:29 AM

There is little doubt Halifax needs a new multi-purpose stadium, but taxpayers alone cannot afford to pay for it.

That is why government needs to bring private-sector partners in right from the beginning. Partners that can help determine what the venue should look like before it is designed and built.

If companies like Sobeys, Nova Scotia Power, Bell Aliant or the breweries are to be tapped to help finance the stadium, then bring them in now at the initial stage. Let them assist in deciding how large the stadium should be or whether it should have a roof.

And don’t stop there.

The appeal should go out to any corporation that wants to get in on the ground floor of a once-in-a-generation public investment, which a new stadium for the provincial capital will be.

I think most people would agree that, if a stadium is to be built, it should be a low cost but not cheap looking structure.

Halifax council has already approved spending $100,000 on a consultant’s study to investigate the business case for a stadium and soon it will appoint about 12 people to serve on the city’s stadium steering committee.

It has been reported that councillors have decided the steering committee should include representatives of council, provincial government staff, sports organizations, the hospitality industry, other businesses and the community at large.

Halifax loves its bureaucracy but surely any steering committee must include developers, representatives from the construction sector, even experts in multimedia. But there isn’t much time to get all these people involved; council set 4 p.m. Monday as the deadline for applications.

The committee is supposed to have members who do not have a bias. Well one could argue every Nova Scotia taxpayer has a bias but I doubt there will be anyone on the committee who will be openly opposed to building a stadium.

I doubt the sports organizations will be without bias. And the hospitality industry, singled out by council for representation on the steering committee, may be one of the biggest beneficiaries of a new stadium. Should it have a spot saved for it on the committee?

Some politicians have suggested that building a new stadium in the Halifax area could cost up to $60 million. But how is anyone to know that before a steering committee is even selected? We don’t know yet what a stadium will look like.

It’s foolish to throw that $60 million out for public consumption because there is chance that it may not be an accurate prediction of the real cost.

We don’t know where the stadium will be built, so we don’t now know how much excavation is required or whether there are hidden problems with the building site. And nobody knows what construction materials will be used or what infrastructure is required for the various sports that are expected to use the stadium.

Will it have natural grass or artificial surface? How big will the scoreboard be? Will it use the most up to date technology or will we make do?

Putting a price tag on the stadium at this point only builds up expectation of achieving the goal at a low cost, which more often than not, leads to disappointment once the actual number comes in.

But there is no room for delay. Halifax has made a bid to take part in Canada’s plan to host an international women’s soccer tournament in 2015.

As far as I know, it is the only Canadian city vying to participate in the tournament that doesn’t already have a stadium capable of accommodating 20,000 spectators.


^ I agree with most of this except the last part, Victoria and Moncton don't have 20,000 seat stadiums.

Also if we want to suggest other places to put this stadium besides Dartmouth Crossing and Shannon Park, we need to look at locations than can be acquired in a year or two.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

My concerns with Shannon Park have nothing to do with "pride" as fuzzywuz stated. I think that there is a high possibility that if a stadium is built at Shannon Park that it will be seen as a mistake, which the HRM will have to live with for decades. I keep looking at that location on a map and thinking that maybe I am wrong since so many people seem to like it - http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=halif...-63.615303&spn=0.04327,0.132093&t=h&z=14 . But no matter how hard I try to convince myself otherwise, I always end up thinking that Shannon Park is not a good location for a stadium.

That's because you're correct: it is a terrible location for a stadium.

So why does it keep coming to the forefront?

I submit that it is because the politicians are touting it for their own reasons, not because it is an intrinsically good location for such a facility.

Why are they doing that? I can offer a few suggestions:

- they are intellectually lazy, and have given no consideration to the practical aspects of siting a major public facility there
- the site is owned by the feds, hence they think it will be easy/cheap to acquire (neither is true)
- they are either ignorant of or are thinking they can deal with the Indian land claim issue by throwing money at it
- doing something on the site helps cover up another political embarrassment: the abandonment on a military housing center with no plan to deal with the consequences
- they rely on the Commonwealth Games proposal for the site, without realizing that it was equally flawed in its reasoning

[wespidel]

Halifax article in the Herald this morning, Halifax being cautious!

Headline in Herald........ Halifax won`t rush 400,000 dollar pledge for FIFA Event!

Van. and Ottawa have made their 400,000 dollar pledge up front and are seriuos about hosting if Canada wins the FIFA bid which now is a 50/50 shot what I been reading and you know with FIFA and other bodies there have been payoffs. Last year when Africa hosted the FIFA mens World Cup, they were caught in fixing games and payoffs. Zimbabwe govt. could easliy do the same and payoff the president of FIFA. I really believe this is the only way Zimbabwe can win the bid because the European teams will not want to go back there and Zimbabwe do not have the facilities but have said they will build new unlike Canada but Canada has all there facilities in place but one. Well we will have wait and see the result on March6/2011, but personally I don`t trust FIFA and I hope I`m wrong but if Zimbabwe wins I believe I`m right.

Halifax continue to say in the article this morning that they will build up to a 60 million dollar stadium and Mayor Kelly despite what Mr. Lunn Federal Sports Minsiter said that they will be supported by three levels of Govt. and a private sector, to build the stadium. I also agree if Halifax is only willing to build a 60 milliion stadium which would be not as good as BMO field then they should not try to showcase a 60 million stadium which would be the same price as the sprind garden rd. library, on the harbour in Shannon park because I believe it would be a potiental eyesore.

Come on Halifax you can do better than that and should want to build at least a 85 to 100 million dollar stadium which would be the only major stadium in Atlantic Canada which is definitely needed in the only major city and remember city council, Peter MacKay`s exact words, he said he would be intereted in supporting a major stadium. I seriuosly don`t believe it`s asking too much, in relation to what all the other cities across Canada are building and where Halifax is not that much smaller than Hamilton or even Winnipeg and twice the size of Regina. Make us proud Halifax and put us on a National and Global scale!

[wespidel]

Taylor was really running down three down football, CFL, canadian university 3 down football, and making fun of TouchDown Atlantic I in Moncton and our Canadian game. It was an article he wrote in the Herald last year after Touchdown Atlantic was announced. I sent him an email and his boss and told him what I thought about the article in defence of our unversity football programs, highschool football, and all the parents and fans that support Canadian football and the CFL.

[wespidel]

I disagree with at least two of his comments. One stating that most people agree that it should be low cost but not cheap looking. Well how can you have both! What do you think guys, agree or disagree? Another point how can you have a potiental CFL owner unless it`s a CFL model 25,000permanent seat multi purpose stadium which I believe could not be build for 60 million dollars.

Another one about turfs, well if it`s a CFL model stadium it cannot be grass, it has to be artifical turf which the CFL has made clear unless it was totally built for soccer, but not for CFL or other major events like concerts which is precisely why Edmonton replaced their natural grass. Mr. Cohen has also told Moncton that if they had a permanent CFL team they would have to replace their grass to artifical turf which the Mayor of Moncton said he was willing to do.


It`s funny now where Halifax may build a stadium and possibly get a CFL team he`s now writing articles not running down the stadium, which actually he has in previous articles, while knowing that CFL could become a reality. Although he didn`t mention a word about the CFL did he! These are the type of writers we don`t need in this city especially after that article he wrote last year running the CFL into the ground and I`m sure he`s preparing another ignorant article to run down the CFL and Touchdown Atlantic II!

[MonctonRad]

I'm glad to see you supporting Touchdown Atlantic II Wes

With regards to possible stadium locations in Halifax:

I agree that Shannon Park is a horrible location for every reason that Fenwick mentioned. In particular, access to that site would be very difficult and there is nothing in the immediate neighbourhood for people to do after whatever event/game is held there. It would sit empty and neglected 95% of the time. In the long run it would be viewed as a mistake.

I have a soft spot for Gorsebrook, but I am resigned to the fact that the south end NIMBY's would never agree to a stadium being located here.

Exhibition Park is in the middle of nowhere and is a non starter. Anywhere on the waterfront would be cold and foggy lots of the time. The Halifax Commons are sacrosanct and any suggestion to build here would start a popular revolt.

So, in relative rank order, my humble suggestions are:

1) - Dartmouth Crossing (excellent access, lots of nearby restaurants and activities, transit options can easily be improved).
2) - Mainland North Common (would fit in well with existing recreational facilities on site, access problematic but perhaps could be improved since it is so close to the bi-hi).
3) - CFB Halifax properties in the north end of the city (probably the best option if everyone really wants the stadium on the penninsula).

My two cents as a (somewhat) interested outsider and former resident of Halifax for nine years.

PS - If you guys do build a new stadium, I agree that it shouldn't be built cheaply, however it should be a modest but substantial facility that will serve your municipality for decades to come. I do agree with Wes that the Moncton Stadium has problems, but it wasn't really built with the CFL in mind and it served it's primary function as a host site for the IAAF World Junior Track & Field Championships very well. Any extra monies spent on the facility were used to make sure the track & field was world class. The stands were not given so much of a priority. In retropect this was a mistake and remediation will be expensive, costing tens of millions of dollars, but if worst come to worst and Moncton does not get a franchise, at least we won't be on the hook for huge amounts of money.

[q12]

Halifax won’t rush $400,000 pledge for FIFA event

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/1228957.html

By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE City Hall Reporter
Sat, Feb 19 - 7:26 AM
Two Canadian cities hoping to host games during an international soccer tournament that Halifax is also interested in have already earmarked lots of public dough for their proposed hosting duties.

But Mayor Peter Kelly said Friday that Halifax Regional Municipality has no immediate plans to match the $400,000 that municipal governments in Ottawa and Vancouver are setting aside in case their cities are awarded games as part of FIFA’s Women’s World Cup in 2015 and a companion event in 2014.

Kelly said Halifax city hall is collecting data on stadium construction and other related matters, "and until that has been done, then any allocations (of public money), I think, would be premature."

That could change, however, if Canada is awarded the soccer tournaments and Halifax gets to be one of several hosting cities.

Canada and Zimbabwe are battling for the hosting rights to the women’s World Cup, and FIFA, soccer’s world governing body, will make a decision in about 12 days.

The Canadian Soccer Association’s bid also includes hosting the 2014 under-20 Women’s World Cup.

According to media reports, city councils in Vancouver and Ottawa approved the tournament-related outlay of cash and enthusiastically backed their respective bids.

Earlier this month, Vancouver council voted unanimously to back the Canadian Soccer Association’s World Cup proposal and commit $400,000 to help support that city’s plans for the two tournaments.

Ottawa city council "approved its $400,000 contribution in cash and kind without debate after a motion" by a councillor, the Ottawa Citizen reported last week.

According to a report to Edmonton city council, $400,000 is a starting point — if the Alberta capital hosts some of the FIFA matches.

"The city of Edmonton will be required to fund the $25,000 bid fee . . . (as well as) $250,000 value in kind in 2015 and $150,000 value in kind in 2014. In addition, the city of Edmonton and the government of Alberta will be asked to contribute $50,000 each toward the development of a ‘World Cup cultural festival,’ " the report says, adding that corporate funding would also be sought.

Halifax regional council is solidly behind its proposal to host soccer matches but the municipality would need to build a stadium if it gets to be part of the 2015 FIFA competition and the earlier event.

Council last week authorized a $100,000 feasibility study on the proposed stadium project. A venue could still get built even if Halifax doesn’t end up hosting women’s soccer games.

Gary Lunn, the federal cabinet minister handling the 2015 tournament bid, was in Switzerland this week to deliver Canada’s bid book to FIFA officials. FIFA’s executive committee will vote March 3 to determine the successful bidder.

An official with the Canadian Soccer Association confirmed that Halifax is part of Canada’s bid, as are Moncton, Montreal, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Edmonton and Vancouver.

He said Moncton and Halifax could both host games because it’s not an either-or scenario with respect to regional representation.

"It’s possible both could be included," said the association staffer, who asked not to be named. "No matter what city we’re talking about, it’s never an and/or situation at this point."

Kelly, a vocal stadium booster, feels the time is right to build a multi-use venue. He said the three levels of government and the private sector would cover the cost.

Stadium foes have said it’s an unnecessary and expensive piece of infrastructure in a small market that has other priorities right now.

FIFA requires a minimum of six cities for the women’s soccer events, and each city must have a stadium that seats at least 20,000 people. Halifax council heard recently that a stadium could cost up to $60 million.

Lunn, the minister of state for sport, said in Halifax last week that the federal government won’t be contributing public money to any sports infrastructure hooked to FIFA’s tournaments. But the Harper government is committing up to $15 million for the events, should Canada beat out Zimbabwe in the bidding race.

( [email protected])





Submitted by Bruce DeVenne on Sat, 2011-02-19 07:37.
Don't even send it in.
We've apent enough on games. Does Mayor Kelly think he's the emperor of Rome staging games to eep the masses happy? If so I would remiind him that. in many cases, the public figures paid for those games out of their own pockets as tributes to battles or relatives who died.

LOGIN OR REGISTER TO POST COMMENTS

A side from the fact this guy can't spell, This guy is not going to de-rail this attempt at a stadium. Time to get commenting people and fight back against this moron.

[q12]

Public consultation must be part of $100,000 stadium feasibility study

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/1228885.html

By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE City Hall Reporter
Sat, Feb 19 - 4:54 AM

City hall Friday issued its request for a consultant to do a feasibility study on a proposed multi-use stadium in the Halifax region.

Public consultation will be part of the cost-benefit analysis, says a tender on the municipality’s website.

Consultants have until March 4 at 2 p.m. to apply for the work. The successful bidder is to have a report ready for regional council by the end of June or in early July.

Council has authorized $100,000 for the study. A proposed stadium could cost up to $60 million.

According to the tender document, the last 20 years or so have seen "significant interest and some attempts" to get a stadium built in the Halifax area.

"In all cases, these discussions have not resulted in the development of (a) full business and economic development analysis, and have not included consultation with (the) public, stakeholders and members of potential user groups," it says.

The consultant will research "opportunities for (the) viable, long-term fiscal success of the facility, opportunities for major event hosting, sport tourism opportunities and daily benefit to citizens for sport, recreation and leisure access," the tender says.

As well, "ownership and operating models will be reviewed."

The tender document says focus groups will be used during the consultation stage and public forums will be organized. A telephone survey might also be part of the consultant’s work, it says.

"Survey data would be used in conjunction with the other needs-assessment activities to determine public interest, viability, priorities and expectations," it says.

Halifax Regional Municipality is part of Canada’s proposal to host the 2015 FIFA Women’s World Cup of soccer and a companion tournament, but the possible construction of a stadium is not connected solely to those competitions.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Another one about turfs, well if it`s a CFL model stadium it cannot be grass, it has to be artifical turf which the CFL has made clear unless it was totally built for soccer, but not for CFL or other major events like concerts which is precisely why Edmonton replaced their natural grass. Mr. Cohen has also told Moncton that if they had a permanent CFL team they would have to replace their grass to artifical turf which the Mayor of Moncton said he was willing to do.

Wespidel, do you know which types of artificial turf are recommended by the CFL? Here is a list of artificial turf fields in use at NFL stadiums - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_National_Football_League_stadiums

Hopefully the turf selected will be suitable for both the CFL and FIFA soccer. FIFA for several years banned artificial turf but have now accepted some brands - http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/developing/pitchequipment/footballturf/producers/preferred.html. Here is another link that outlines the testing requirements that FIFA has adopted - http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/pitchequip/fqc_requirements_manual_march_2006_326.pdf. There is also an interesting Wikipedia article on artificial turf - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_turf .

[wespidel]

Fenwick the only mention of the type of artifical turf was Edmonton`s as far as description. The manufactured product is a type of synthetic fibre made by synthesis as artifical grass. I know apparently there are different products of this type being made by several companies around the world.


Fenwick I somewhat agree with you on Shannon park, it not being the best site but I believe there are politics involved with the Shannon Park site. I would like to see it personally downtown Halifax, but where!