DENVER | Transportation Thread

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

On Item 2 above... what RTD can afford depends on where they apply the money, right? Taking a look at this from the article - "Acceptance by voters of a 0.2 percent tax increase, coupled with the $305 million in advance funds, would allow RTD to complete 75 percent of FasTracks by 2016, Washington said, including the entire DIA and Gold Line routes..."

I was under the impression that the line to DIA was covered already. I think for Joe Voter, the DIA line is a big deal (whether that makes sense or not is a different discussion). You don't think RTD would hold completing the entire DIA route hostage to swing more votes, do you?

That's bullshit, they will be able to complete the DIA and Gold Line routes w/o a tax increase, with $305 million left over to build part of something else. For RTD to suddenly change their tune is quite disingenuous.

I don't think hostage taking is a good strategy, but the "we f**ked up" strategy isn't going to go over so well either.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I fear that if we are this skeptical, RTD is doomed. At least, if there is any concerted opposition that's reasonably well run, RTD is doomed.

There are going to be so many proponents and opponents coming out for this that it's not even funny. You've got the usual II nuts that will be crawling out of the woodwork, but you'll also have a hell of a lot of Chamber of Commerce members who are betting on the transit lines for construction jobs and recruiting employees and developers who are betting on new stations for their little projects (i.e. Ridgegate in Lone Tree). It's going to be like the Ugly Three again.

Bunt, you're also skeptical because you're now a bitter husk of a man disillusioned by years of dealing in the bureaucracy.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Bunt, you're also skeptical because you're now a bitter husk of a man disillusioned by years of dealing in the bureaucracy.

Sigh...

Is this the right time to announce my run for RTD Board in 2012?

[Cirrus]

Probably it is. Easy to get votes when it's obvious the existing board screwed up.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Sigh...

Is this the right time to announce my run for RTD Board in 2012?

Sure, are you running as an enraged Tea Party-er? I'll vote for you if you show up dressed as a colonial and prostrate yourself before a small altar of the Founding Fathers.

[Cirrus]

You know, as an American citizen that literally suffers from taxation without representation, it really offends me on a personal level that the tea party doesn't give a crap.

Not to derail the thread.

[bunt_q]

Is there such thing as an enraged liberal? Or an enraged moderate? It's really not fair that the political right has a monopoly on rage in America. I mean, since when does a "return to sanity" win elections? Fear! Fear fear itself, even.

[Brainpathology]

I thought the polls on asking for more money to finish this were running pretty well when the hypothetical question was posed to people?

Also did I catch an implication that out of all these suburban connections into Denver the DIA line isn't the most important? If I was asked which line to save out of all of them that would be at the top of my list.

Finally, let's assume this gets defeated, which I don't think is a foregone conclusion. What are the chances of the suburbs voting no vociferously on this while Denver approves it (which in my head is a virtual certainty as Denver voters are as choosy with tax increases as David Duchovny is with sexual partners), which might in turn make Denver look at expanding an URBAN network of streetcars/light rail/ and dare I say subway lines within the city limits?

Can RTD create subdistricts where tax increases are applied only to those cities which choose to have a line running through them? If not should they seek such authoritye?

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Is there such thing as an enraged liberal? Or an enraged moderate? It's really not fair that the political right has a monopoly on rage in America. I mean, since when does a "return to sanity" win elections? Fear! Fear fear itself, even.

Which era was the sane one again? 3/5's of a melanin enhanced person = 1 person? Dueling your opponents? Shooting presidents in the back of the head for wanting to have an amical way of reconstructing the union? Acually having to debate in front of the supreme court science vrs fairy tales to be taught in schools? Blacklisting everyone suspected of being pink? Denying the existence of AIDS? Impeachment for blow jobs? (not even close to an exhaustive list btw)

Which one of those do we want to return to exactly? The only insane ones are those who thing we're doing things differently now compared to earlier. The rich are winning right now but every victory they have stealing from the middle class/poor is just a choice they are making about how much they will be blamed and villified when voters (finally) catch on. Until/unless they find a way to deny the emerging surf class from actually voting they can't avoid this eventuality.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

Which era was the sane one again? 3/5's of a melanin enhanced person = 1 person? Dueling your opponents? Shooting presidents in the back of the head for wanting to have an amical way of reconstructing the union? Acually having to debate in front of the supreme court science vrs fairy tales to be taught in schools? Blacklisting everyone suspected of being pink? Denying the existence of AIDS? Impeachment for blow jobs? (not even close to an exhaustive list btw)

This one isn't too bad. It could lead to increased civility and compromise knowing that one too many angry barbs could result in you having to literally defend yourself from a reprisal.

The only question is: edged weapons or firearms?

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

This one isn't too bad. It could lead to increased civility and compromise knowing that one too many angry barbs could result in you having to literally defend yourself from a reprisal.

The only question is: edged weapons or firearms?

Isn't that up to the challenger? Pistols at dawn, swords at dusk, iocaine powder in which glass of two buck chucks?

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

Isn't that up to the challenger? Pistols at dawn, swords at dusk, iocaine powder in which glass of two buck chucks?

Personally, I never would go against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

[Cirrus]

^
Unless you're immune to iocane powder.

Anyway:

Also did I catch an implication that out of all these suburban connections into Denver the DIA line isn't the most important? If I was asked which line to save out of all of them that would be at the top of my list.

Everyone likes airport lines because they picture themselves using them when they go to the airport, but most people only go to the airport a couple of times per year, so airport transit lines are often less effective ways to spend limited money than lines that serve a dedicated commuter base every day.

That having been said, there is clearly a political value to serving a destination that everyone in the region uses, even if only occasionally. It could be that the east line won't actually be worth it operationally, but could be worth enough political support that RTD is willing to take the hit in order to get people on board.

But that having been said, the ridership projections for the east line are relatively impressive, so it doesn't look like it isn't pulling its weight.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Personally, I never would go against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

Or get into a land war in Asia...

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

^
Unless you're immune to iocane powder.

Anyway:

Everyone likes airport lines because they picture themselves using them when they go to the airport, but most people only go to the airport a couple of times per year, so airport transit lines are often less effective ways to spend limited money than lines that serve a dedicated commuter base every day.

That having been said, there is clearly a political value to serving a destination that everyone in the region uses, even if only occasionally. It could be that the east line won't actually be worth it operationally, but could be worth enough political support that RTD is willing to take the hit in order to get people on board.

But that having been said, the ridership projections for the east line are relatively impressive, so it doesn't look like it isn't pulling its weight.

You've pretty much nailed why I would support it. Also though, it could be a surrogate way of getting to Fitz if a good shuttle was implemented from stop just north of campus. And, as part of my ongoing efforts to be more patriotic I'm trying to adopt attitudes of only favoring things which I get direct benefit from.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

And, as part of my ongoing efforts to be more patriotic I'm trying to adopt attitudes of only favoring things which I get direct benefit from.

In that case, I highly recommend land wars in Asia. Lots of direct benefit available there.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

In that case, I highly recommend land wars in Asia. Lots of direct benefit available there.

Since I dont own a car this won't be true until I get a free car instead of taxes for RTD.

[SnyderBock]

Cirrus,
You asked about how many people work at DIA, on the transportation forum thread about FasTracks. many posters were criticizing the 37,500 daily ridership projections for the East line in 2030. They said worldwide, 10,000-12,000 daily riders is about the best airport lines can do, even in the biggest of markets.

It turns out that in present day, DIA has 30,000 people that work there and 90% of them live in the greater Denver metro area. And of course, Union Station will allow for people from all across the metro, to easily transfer onto the east line to the airport.

The east line will also have a transfer station with the Central Corridor line at 38th/38th Street.

It will then have a station at the Stapleton redevelopment, which I believe will have over 30,000 people in 2030. Considering it's a fairly dense, new Urbanist redevelopment, I assume transit usage will be high, going to downtown as daily commuters, not just the other way to the airport.

Then there will also be another major transfer station at I-225/Smith RD. This will connect the entire SE metro area to the airport line, including the Denver Tech Center and the heavily populated Cites of Aurora and Centennial.

[Cirrus]

They said worldwide, 10,000-12,000 daily riders is about the best airport lines can do

This should be amended to read "dedicated airport lines". If you just happen to have an airport station on an otherwise normal line there would be no such limit.

[SnyderBock]

So I guess the question is, is Denver's east corridor EMU line, a dedicated airport line? I say it's not one and that's why it's ridership projections are so healthy and why so much private investment is going into it's construction. It will operate as both a dedicated airport line and also a daily commuter line.