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  #1461  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2011, 12:17 AM
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Denver Union Station as built out under it's current plan will still be a better central downtown multi-model transit hub than most cities in this nation are even dreaming of having. There won't be 10 cities in the US with a better single-point transit hub.

The argument that Union Station's new design won't allow for future expansion, is only a viable argument when talking about at-grade expansion. Even then, it's somewhat inaccurate, as the current plan will allow for an additional at-grade light rail platform and currently on opening day will have two unused commuter rail platforms for future at-grade service.

Beyond that, the ~2 block separation between the Light Rail Terminal and Commuter Rail Terminal being connected by an under-ground pedestrian walkway will make possible some very intriguing options for future below grade expansion and integration into the station design. What's possible, is a cut & Cover rail line under Wewatta Street, under the Bus Terminal, with pedestrian access to the rail platforms from the Bus Terminal pedestrian walkway.

Or course there is also potential for cut & cover access to Union Station via 17th Street, with future Light Rail access directly up into the historic DUS building.

In addition to this, the existence of the CML freight tracks next to the Light Rail Terminal opens up possibilities for relocation of freight services and use of that ROW for additional passenger rail, or construction of elevated passenger rail over the freight tracks or construction of passenger rail under the freight tracks.

The current DUS redevelopment plan is a good, solid plan with plenty of potential for future expansion and upgrades.
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  #1462  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2011, 12:21 AM
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ugh... see I hate potential... things with "potential" have NOTHING.

Pueblo has potential.

New York doesn't have "potential"

I hate admitting that Denver or anything in Denver has "potential".
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  #1463  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2011, 2:11 AM
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New York has amazing potential. Things without potential, have nothing. Potential is directly correlated to future value. Without potential, future value is quickly reduced in an economic reaction known as depreciation.
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  #1464  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2011, 8:16 PM
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Yes, there is plenty of potential to fix Union Station.

The problem is that we're designing it from the get-go knowing full well that the next generation will have to fix it. That isn't responsible.

But it's like buntie said, as long as we can pretend not to have to pay for it...
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  #1465  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2011, 8:17 PM
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But yes, for all its faults Union Station is still going to be awesome by the standards of most of the rest of America. Nobody in this country has a train shed like that. Nobody.
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  #1466  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2011, 9:48 PM
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But yes, for all its faults Union Station is still going to be awesome by the standards of most of the rest of America. Nobody in this country has a train shed like that. Nobody.
And perhaps THIS, rather than reaching for near perfection, is what we need to be thinking about more often here when it comes to FasTracks and DUS, folks. No question, DUS is going to be an awesome facility when it's done, and I have a feeling the DIA train shed is going to be pretty freaking awesome as well. It may not be a London or a Paris or even a Rotterdam or Berlin (just guessing), but you know, it's still going to be pretty damn awesome!

Aaron (Glowrock)
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  #1467  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2011, 12:54 AM
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And perhaps THIS, rather than reaching for near perfection, is what we need to be thinking about more often here when it comes to FasTracks and DUS, folks. No question, DUS is going to be an awesome facility when it's done, and I have a feeling the DIA train shed is going to be pretty freaking awesome as well. It may not be a London or a Paris or even a Rotterdam or Berlin (just guessing), but you know, it's still going to be pretty damn awesome!

Aaron (Glowrock)
Which is what I tell everyone I meet.. but here I like to vent. I am coming to enjoy being a curmudgeon about this one issue. :-P
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  #1468  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2011, 3:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowrock View Post
It may not be a London or a Paris or even a Rotterdam or Berlin (just guessing), but you know, it's still going to be pretty damn awesome!

Aaron (Glowrock)
I think it's safe to say it won't be any Berlin. No need to guess. And no need to stoop to curmudgeon-dom to make that minor critique.
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  #1469  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2011, 4:10 PM
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I am coming to enjoy being a curmudgeon
Yes, come to the dark side.

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  #1470  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2011, 5:39 PM
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I think it's safe to say it won't be any Berlin. No need to guess. And no need to stoop to curmudgeon-dom to make that minor critique.
I like being a curmudgeon as well, Brent, but I prefer being an obnoxious elitist self-righteous ass!

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  #1471  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2011, 11:05 PM
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You drink your Shiner Bock with one pinky out, eh?
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  #1472  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2011, 2:01 AM
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You drink your Shiner Bock with one pinky out, eh?
Screw Shiner Bock, I'll take some Saint Arnold's, (512), Real Ale, or Southern Star!

(Houston, Austin, Blanco, Conroe)

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  #1473  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2011, 1:59 PM
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Latest Cost & Ridership Projections

This is what, I believe to be, a conglomerate of all the latest, most up to date, FasTracks corridors cost and ridership estimates, as well as planned frequency of service.


Central Corridor Extension
Vehicle Type: Light Rail
Length (miles): 0.8 new
Stations: 2
Parking: 1,685 existing spaces; no new spaces (parking will be shared with East Corridor at 38th and Blake)
Capital Cost: $67.3M*
2030 Ridership: 5,800
Proposed Frequency of Service (Rail): 15 min (peak)/15 min (off-peak)


East Corridor (under construction)
Vehicle Type: Commuter Rail - Electric Multiple Unit (EMU)
Length (miles): 22.8
Stations: 6
Parking: 2,848 existing spaces; 681 new spaces; Total: 3,529 parking spaces (opening day)
Capital Cost: $1.34B*
2030 Ridership: 37,900
Proposed Frequency of Service (Rail): 15 min (peak)/15 min (off-peak)


Gold Line Corridor (under construction 2011)
Vehicle Type: Commuter Rail - Electric Multiple Unit (EMU)
Length (miles): 11.2
Stations: 7
Parking: 711 existing spaces; 2,050 new spaces; Total: 2,250 parking spaces (opening day)
Capital Cost: $590.5M*
2030 Ridership: 20,100
Proposed Frequency of Service (Rail): 7.5 min (peak)/15 min (off-peak)


I-225 Corridor
Vehicle Type: Light Rail
Length (miles): 10.5
Stations: 8
Parking: 1,225 existing spaces; 1,800 new spaces; Total: 3,025 parking spaces (opening day)
Capital Cost: $694.9M*
2030 Ridership: 34,200
Proposed Frequency of Service (Rail): 7.5 min (peak)/10 min (off-peak)


North Metro Corridor
Vehicle Type: Commuter Rail - Diesel or Electric Multiple Unit (DMU/EMU)
Length (miles): 18.7
Stations: 8
Parking: 3,100 new parking spaces (opening day)
Capital Cost: $924.4M*
2030 Ridership: 24,100
Proposed Frequency of Service (Rail): 15 min (peak)/30 min (off-peak)


Northwest Rail Corridor (phase 1 under construction 2011, phase 2 unfunded)
Vehicle Type: Commuter Rail - Diesel Multiple Unit (DMU)
Length (miles): 41
Stations: 7
Parking: 3,975 existing spaces; 4,393 new spaces; Total: 8,368 parking spaces (opening day; U.S. 36 Corridor and Northwest Rail share parking at two stations)
Capital Cost: $706.9M*
2035 Ridership: 17,400
Proposed Frequency of Service: 30 min (peak)/60 min (off-peak)


Southeast Corridor Extension
Vehicle Type: Light Rail
Length (miles): 2.3
Stations: 3
Parking: 6,962 existing spaces; 2,000 new spaces; Total: 8,962 parking spaces (opening day)
Capital Cost: $184.3M*
2035 Ridership: 14,800 (total ridership existing + extension: 56,800-64,000)
Proposed Frequency of Service (Rail): 6 min (peak)/7.5 min (off-peak)


Southwest Corridor Extension
Vehicle Type: Light Rail
Length (miles): 2.5
Stations: 1
Parking: 2,597 existing spaces; 1,440 new spaces (1,000 opening day and 440 future); Total: 4,037 parking spaces (opening day)
Capital Cost: $165.6M*
2035 Ridership: 5,700 (total ridership existing + extension: 23,900-26,100)
Proposed Frequency of Service (Rail): 7.5 min (peak)/10 min (off-peak)


US 36 BRT Corridor (phase 1 complete, 2 under construction 2011, phase 3 unfunded)
Vehicle Type: Bus Rapid Transit (BRT)
Length (miles): 18
Stations: 6
Parking: 3,826 existing spaces; 1,278 new spaces; Total: 5,104 parking spaces (opening day)
Capital Cost: $208.5M*
2030 Ridership: 14,600
Proposed Frequency of Service: 2 min (peak)/4 min (off-peak)


West Corridor (under construction)
Vehicle Type: Light Rail
Length (miles): 12.1
Stations: 12
Parking: 646 existing spaces; 5,005 new spaces; Total: 5,651 parking spaces (opening day)
Capital Cost: $709.8M*
2030 Ridership: 29,700
Proposed Frequency of Service (Rail):
5 min (peak)/15 min (off-peak) - Denver to Federal Center
15 min (peak and off-peak) - Federal Center to Jefferson County


* inflated costs
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Last edited by SnyderBock; Jan 25, 2011 at 2:27 AM. Reason: Reverting
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  #1474  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2011, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnyderBock View Post
This is what, I believe to be, a conglomerate of all the latest, most up to date, FasTracks corridors cost and ridership estimates, as well as planned frequency of service.


Central Corridor Extension
Vehicle Type: Light Rail
Length (miles): 0.8 new
Stations: 2
Parking: 1,685 existing spaces; no new spaces (parking will be shared with East Corridor at 38th and Blake)
Capital Cost: $67.3M*
2030 Ridership: 5,800
Proposed Frequency of Service (Rail): 15 min (peak)/15 min (off-peak)


East Corridor
Vehicle Type: Commuter Rail - Electric Multiple Unit (EMU)
Length (miles): 22.8
Stations: 6
Parking: 2,848 existing spaces; 681 new spaces; Total: 3,529 parking spaces (opening day)
Capital Cost: $1.34B*
2030 Ridership: 37,900
Proposed Frequency of Service (Rail): 15 min (peak)/15 min (off-peak)


Gold Line Corridor
Vehicle Type: Commuter Rail - Electric Multiple Unit (EMU)
Length (miles): 11.2
Stations: 7
Parking: 711 existing spaces; 2,050 new spaces; Total: 2,250 parking spaces (opening day)
Capital Cost: $590.5M*
2030 Ridership: 20,100
Proposed Frequency of Service (Rail): 7.5 min (peak)/15 min (off-peak)


I-225 Corridor
Vehicle Type: Light Rail
Length (miles): 10.5
Stations: 8
Parking: 1,225 existing spaces; 1,800 new spaces; Total: 3,025 parking spaces (opening day)
Capital Cost: $694.9M*
2030 Ridership: 34,200
Proposed Frequency of Service (Rail): 7.5 min (peak)/10 min (off-peak)


North Metro Corridor
Vehicle Type: Commuter Rail - Diesel or Electric Multiple Unit (DMU/EMU)
Length (miles): 18.7
Stations: 8
Parking: 3,100 new parking spaces (opening day)
Capital Cost: $924.4M*
2030 Ridership: 24,100
Proposed Frequency of Service (Rail): 15 min (peak)/30 min (off-peak)


Northwest Rail Corridor
Vehicle Type: Commuter Rail - Diesel Multiple Unit (DMU)
Length (miles): 41
Stations: 7
Parking: 3,975 existing spaces; 4,393 new spaces; Total: 8,368 parking spaces (opening day; U.S. 36 Corridor and Northwest Rail share parking at two stations)
Capital Cost: $706.9M*
2035 Ridership: 17,400
Proposed Frequency of Service: 30 min (peak)/60 min (off-peak)


Southeast Corridor Extension
Vehicle Type: Light Rail
Length (miles): 2.3
Stations: 3
Parking: 6,962 existing spaces; 2,000 new spaces; Total: 8,962 parking spaces (opening day)
Capital Cost: $184.3M*
2035 Ridership: 14,800 (total ridership existing + extension: 62,800-71,000)
Proposed Frequency of Service (Rail): 6 min (peak)/7.5 min (off-peak)


Southwest Corridor Extension
Vehicle Type: Light Rail
Length (miles): 2.5
Stations: 1
Parking: 2,597 existing spaces; 1,440 new spaces (1,000 opening day and 440 future); Total: 4,037 parking spaces (opening day)
Capital Cost: $165.6M*
2035 Ridership: 5,700 (total ridership existing + extension: 23,900-26,100)
Proposed Frequency of Service (Rail): 7.5 min (peak)/10 min (off-peak)


US 36 BRT Corridor
Vehicle Type: Bus Rapid Transit (BRT)
Length (miles): 18
Stations: 6
Parking: 3,826 existing spaces; 1,278 new spaces; Total: 5,104 parking spaces (opening day)
Capital Cost: $208.5M*
2030 Ridership: 14,600
Proposed Frequency of Service: 2 min (peak)/4 min (off-peak)


West Corridor
Vehicle Type: Light Rail
Length (miles): 12.1
Stations: 12
Parking: 646 existing spaces; 5,005 new spaces; Total: 5,651 parking spaces (opening day)
Capital Cost: $709.8M*
2030 Ridership: 29,700
Proposed Frequency of Service (Rail):
5 min (peak)/15 min (off-peak) - Denver to Federal Center
15 min (peak and off-peak) - Federal Center to Jefferson County


* inflated costs

Very good, now if it will all happen and work out? We can only hope! But one thing is for sure, Denver needs this to happen. I know 3 of the suggested are already taking place as we type. But we need all of the proposed to happen...
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  #1475  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2011, 12:06 AM
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Election to follow...
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  #1476  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2011, 6:11 PM
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the DP today said that they are going to go with the .2 hike. I wonder if it will pass.
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  #1477  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2011, 6:35 PM
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Let's post the article. Sad, I say. $7.2b for the same system (less, actually) that was supposed to be $4.7b. That's not a mere increase in construction costs; it's a massive f-up. Even if projected revenues hadn't taken a nose-dive, they still wouldn't have been close (maybe, with the PPPs, more federal money, etc etc, but still doubtful). I mean, if this was a perfect system, maybe I could understand taking a full generation (not exaggerating anymore - we're looking at 24 years from election to completion) to complete it. But this is only half a solution; a mediocre commuter system. I hate to play the China card, but what did their rail landscape look like 24 years ago? What will it look like in another 24 years? I have a hard time believing that automobile technology won't leave Fastracks in the dust at this rate. It pains me to say, but I'm pretty sure Google can find a way to double our freeway capacity long before RTD will get an extra 4 miles of train to Highlands Ranch completed.

denver and the west
RTD staff propose additional 0.2% sales tax for FasTracks
By Jeffrey Leib
The Denver Post
The Denver Post
Posted:01/26/2011 01:00:00 AM MST


RTD's staff is proposing that the agency's board of directors seek a 0.2 percent sales-tax increase in November to complete up to 90 percent of the FasTracks program by 2022 and all of the transit expansion by 2027.

The Regional Transportation District is short at least $2 billion to complete FasTracks with its current funding sources, which include a 0.4 percent sales tax approved by metro Denver voters in 2004.

In a presentation to directors Tuesday night, RTD planners rejected the option of asking voters to double the existing tax by approving a 0.4 percent hike, or, alternately, to ask for only a 0.1 percent increase.

In choosing the 0.2 percent tax increase, RTD officials said if the additional levy is approved, it will stretch out completion of FasTracks into the next decade, and the cost of the entire project will grow to $7.2 billion from the current estimate of $6.7 billion, which assumes completion in 2019.

RTD will have momentum to win voter approval for a 0.2 percent tax increase this year, said general manager Phillip Washington, noting that the agency has $305 million to begin early construction of key elements of FasTracks that still will need proceeds from a successful tax vote to complete.

Another event that should aid in getting voter approval of a tax hike this year, Washington said, is his agency's expectation that the Federal Transit Administration in May will announce a $1.03 billion grant to RTD for the FasTracks public-private partnership that will build a train line to Denver International Airport and the light-rail Gold Line to Arvada/ Wheat Ridge.

Acceptance by voters of a 0.2 percent tax increase, coupled with the $305 million in advance funds, would allow RTD to complete 75 percent of FasTracks by 2016, Washington said, including the entire DIA and Gold Line routes, an initial segment of the Interstate 225 light-rail line from Parker Road to East Iliff Avenue, a segment of the North Metro commuter train to East 72nd Avenue, and the extension of HOV/HOT express lanes on U.S. 36 from Pecos Street to the Interlocken commercial complex.

The 0.2 percent scenario also would allow RTD to finish constructing the I-225 rail line to Smith Road and Peoria Street by 2019 and complete the entire North Metro line to Thornton/Northglenn and extensions of existing light rail to Lone Tree and Highlands Ranch by 2024, according to RTD's analysis.

The final rail line to be finished under this scenario would be the commuter train to Boulder/Longmont, which would not be finished until 2027, the analysis showed.

On Thursday, the FasTracks task force of the Metro Mayors Caucus is expected to endorse one of the tax-vote scenarios.

RTD directors will not vote until next month on whether to accept the staff's recommendation of going for a 0.2 percent tax hike, which would cost consumers an additional 2 cents on every $10 taxable purchase.

Jeffrey Leib: 303-954-1645 or [email protected]
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  #1478  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2011, 6:41 PM
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RTD was clearly so terrified of losing the original FasTracks vote that they asked for as little as they could get away with.

That was a terrible decision (and we've known it since the Union Station developer was chosen). To Joe Voter $7 billion doesn't sound much different than $4 billion; they're both too huge to be anything other than abstract. But going back a second time and asking for more, that's something Joe Voter understands. People are much more likely to think they're getting fleeced this time around, especially in the bad economy. Oh, and you can forget about any RTD cost projections ever being taken seriously again. Those days of "we've always come in on time and under budget" are over forever.

Obviously I haven't seen any polls, but I wouldn't be surprised to see RTD lose this one. I'd be pissed as hell if I were a voter, as much for the original screw up as for the current hike proposal.
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  #1479  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2011, 6:43 PM
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Anyway, I'd like to see a map with different colors showing:
1. The original plan.
2. What RTD can currently afford.
3. What they'll be able to afford if the new vote passes.
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  #1480  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2011, 6:56 PM
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Quote:
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Anyway, I'd like to see a map with different colors showing:
1. The original plan.
2. What RTD can currently afford.
3. What they'll be able to afford if the new vote passes.
I have no doubt the Independence Institute will provide you with something along those lines.

I fear that if we are this skeptical, RTD is doomed. At least, if there is any concerted opposition that's reasonably well run, RTD is doomed.

On Item 2 above... what RTD can afford depends on where they apply the money, right? Taking a look at this from the article - "Acceptance by voters of a 0.2 percent tax increase, coupled with the $305 million in advance funds, would allow RTD to complete 75 percent of FasTracks by 2016, Washington said, including the entire DIA and Gold Line routes..."

I was under the impression that the line to DIA was covered already. I think for Joe Voter, the DIA line is a big deal (whether that makes sense or not is a different discussion). You don't think RTD would hold completing the entire DIA route hostage to swing more votes, do you?
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