Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[NucksFanInVan]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

My plan, which reflects the current plan that both Metro and the Province, as well as most SSP forumers that care about the subject agree too, would be:

1) Build Evergreen (after decades of waiting)
2) Build Surrey Extension (they already have Whalley Skytrain but took forever to densify it, especially under the governance of that ugly little troll known as Doug McCallum)
3) Build UBC extension (which frankly, should be last as per the Editorial and reasonings that I already explained)

Wow, that's brave! It's good that you have a pipeline into the minds of other SSPers!

Actually, to be blunt: I think you're wrong. I think most SSPers that know what they're talking about would say build the M-Line extension to Granville or Arbutus first as absolute priority number 1. Poll anyone?

M-Line extension would interchange with Canada Line and serve Central Broadway, taking the heat off the B-Line and providing a pressure release valve for the Broadway/Commercial transfer. Not to mention, no operating subsidies would be required, even right out of the gate.

Only after that should we be expanding to the east, which certainly won't reduce the number of people passing through Broadway & Commercial.

But then again, this subject has been flogged to death and like most I am happy as long as we are moving in the direction of necessary (overdue) expansion. So I take back all the stuff I said above. Just BTMFA.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

By the time UBC is done with "consultations", many more people would have already moved to the Tri Cities and Surrey. More buildings, both residential and commercial, will have been built. And even if UBC does grow, I doubt most people can afford to live in that area anyway. Those that do end up living there, will they take Skytrain to the burbs or drive to the nearby Broadway Commercial district?

As for the Broadway commercial district, what they will get is an enhancement. There are already many buses that traverse that area very frequently, the time to travel from Commercial to a Broadway destination simply ain't as long as someone travelling from Coquitlam Centre to Lougheed or Braid. Even if you miss a bus in Broadway because it is full, another one will be there after a few minutes. Miss a bus in Coquitlam due to its unreliable schedule, you wait 30 more minutes for the next one plus travel time.

I'd also like to point out that its kinda funny how people bash Derek Corrigan because his city already has two Skytrain Lines but seems against rapid transit expansion for other municipalities. Is it really that different from people who already live near Skytrain Lines (such as near Lougheed Mall) and yet want other people who have absolutely no decent transit options to be denied yet again the long promised line that they have waited for almost an eternity and continuously paid their more than fair share of taxes from gas and property to subsidize yet again another city of Vancouver only multi-billion dollar subway?

maybe my understanding of whats going on is wrong - but its my understanding that there is 100's of millions of dollars for the evergreen line right now - if the remainder is not found the whole project will just be scrapped and never to be revisited again basically

why not use the money since it should be enough to extend the m-line right now

as for evergreen i think its purpose is to get people from coquitlam centre the m-line - the current route isn't going to get that many riders in between imo and i think they should take the e-line and hook it up to braid station - no expensive tunnel needed people will get the service they need than use the money save not building a tunnel to spur a line to port moody and one to port coquitlam

the tunnel idea is just stupid

[Millennium2002]

Did someone say that Evergreen should be last? I can't see any mention of it here.

Frankly I don't even need to go to UBC... rather I have to climb up the hill that SFU is built on... and they really should build a gondola there soon.

You mention that many students should be in residence; however, that sometimes puts them far away from families and employment, and drives up the cost of university dramatically (in fact sometimes it's worth more than tuition). For students like me, that's just too much of a burden on our sometimes non-existent pockets, and therefore we have to rely on commuting for sometimes an hour from home. Make no mistake, if there was free quality residences a lot of people would take up that offer, but frankly that's more of a utopian thing at the moment.

Also, unless there are more universities and jobs centrally located within a portion of Surrey it'll be really hard to expect dramatic population and commuting pattern changes in that direction from Point Grey and UBC.

@ SpongeG, well... that depends on whether Port Moody smartens up from its selfishness... and I'm not sure about discounting the number of people at Ioco-Moray.

[queetz@home]

I'm not going to bother responding to personal attacks from others who simply disagree with me. But at the discussion at hand...

Originally Posted by SpongeG

maybe my understanding of whats going on is wrong - but its my understanding that there is 100's of millions of dollars for the evergreen line right now - if the remainder is not found the whole project will just be scrapped and never to be revisited again basically

why not use the money since it should be enough to extend the m-line right now

The money allocated for Evergreen is definitely not enough to extend to Arbutus. I doubt Vancouver would allow cheap cut and cover, nor will the creme de la creme allow elevated rail lines into their turf. Just do the math base on distance and estimated cost, it won't be $800 million.

Originally Posted by SpongeG

as for evergreen i think its purpose is to get people from coquitlam centre the m-line - the current route isn't going to get that many riders in between imo and i think they should take the e-line and hook it up to braid station - no expensive tunnel needed people will get the service they need than use the money save not building a tunnel to spur a line to port moody and one to port coquitlam

the tunnel idea is just stupid

No, the purpose of Evergreen Line is to extend the reach of the existing rapid transit network to the Northeast Sector. It will not only serve people from Coquitlam Centre to the Millenium Line but to make it accessible to people from Maple Ridge, Pitt Meadows, and PoCo who won't have to drive all the way to Burnaby, Whalley, New West or Vancouver for their final destination. It will also give transit options to those taking WCE but have a destination other than downtown.

And ULTIMATELY, it is to shape land growth in the designated growth area for a Metro that is constantly influx with immigrants so instead of a sprawly Coquitlam in the future that is so damn car dependent, you would have a densely populated transit oriented Coquitlam Town centre with high density housing along its route, such as what we already see in Ioco, Lougheed, and soon, Burquitlam. Those people in those neighbourhoods will simply hop on a train instead of their car and there ya go. Plus those people already living in single family homes from Westwood and Burke Mountain can simply drive or get dropped off, or even take shuttle buses, to the end of Evergreen and take the train to their destinations all over the region, not just downtown Vancouver at peak hours.

The Northwest Route was not decided because PoMo lobbied for it due to their selfishness, but because it made the most sense. Southeast was not a good corridor as it consists of big box stores, sparsely populated, was a former landfill, industrial setting, etc. Northwest has transit oriented developments, existing residences and businesses, most which was built under the assumption that rapid transit is coming.

As for the cost of university residence, in the words of Kevin Falcon...BOO HOO! Why oh why should the taxpayers continuously subsidize the students, not only on tuition and transportation, while they get so little in return. That kind of sense of entitlement is really what's driving the UBC Line argument, isn't it? $2.8 billion just to make travel faster to students while majority of taxpayers, some being former UBC students themselves, continue to get stuck in traffic with little transit options and have little choice but to use their car whether they like it or not. Don't take this the wrong way, allan, but please read the editorial again.

Oh I'm sure if we can all live close to our jobs or along the existing skytrain lines, that would be great. But until the prices of homes along those lines are affordable to every person now living in the Northeast Sector and Surrey, I think those people in poorly served areas deserve some of the services back for the contribution that they have provided, right?

Anyways, this will be my last response in this thread for a while (currently travelling). Ultimately, yes this has been flogged to death, and it saddens me that as an 11 year SSP vet, that the same argument since the Millenium Line is underconstruction is still going on and yet no REAL progress is being made in this line.

[nname]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

as for evergreen i think its purpose is to get people from coquitlam centre the m-line - the current route isn't going to get that many riders in between imo and i think they should take the e-line and hook it up to braid station - no expensive tunnel needed people will get the service they need than use the money save not building a tunnel to spur a line to port moody and one to port coquitlam

the tunnel idea is just stupid

Then they'll spend more for longer route and/or shutting down the M-Line for reconstruction.

And this is a ridership estimate from a 1999 report measure the total hourly boarding+alighting during the peak... Note that the ridership from Coquitlam station account for less than half of the total ridership

Expo Line
Waterfront	  779
Burrard		 4066
Granville	 7218
Stadium		 1315
Main		 1668
Broadway	 7012
Nanaimo		  918
29th Ave	 1011
Joyce		 1522
Patterson	 1100
Metrotown	 2496
Royal Oak	  526
Edmonds		 1520
22nd Street	 2055
New West	 2038
Columbia	  310
Total		35554

Expo Line (Surrey)
Columbia	  970
Scott Road	 1633
Gateway		 2033
Surrey Central	 2433
King George	 1382
Total		 8451

Millennium Line
Arbutus		  n/a
Granville	  n/a
Oak		  n/a
Cambie		 3799
Main		 1140
VCC-Clark	  504
Commercial	 5650
Renfrew		  252
Rupert		  921
Gilmore		  613
Brentwood	 1754
Holdom		  696
Sperling	  451
Lake City	  n/a
Production	 1396
Lougheed	 1700
Total		18876

Evergreen Line
Lougheed	  995
Burquitlam	 1139
Port Moody	  474
Ioco		  714
Coquitlam	 2510
Guildford	  367
Total		 6199

Millennium Line (New West)
Lougheed	 1834
Braid		  647
Sapperton	  169
Columbia	  898
Total		 3548

[twoNeurons]

The way it should be (and the way it probably will be):

M-Line Phase II East A.K.A Evergreen (Eventually)
M-Line Phase II West to Granville (Maybe Arbutus)
Surrey Extension (perhaps LRT)
UBC Extension (maybe one day)

If Kevin Falcon gets in as Premier, we might see Surrey get a bump. He lives in Cloverdale and was Transportation Minister when the idea of Expanding Rapid Transit in Surrey was first proposed.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by DKaz

I like the Narita Airport to Tokyo Station example the best. About 65km...

You could use JR East's Narita Express which takes as little as 54 minutes (72km/h) but costs 2,550 yen, or take the rapid trains (not the locals which stop at every stop, these ones stop every five to ten stations but use regular trains compared to the premium better than West Coast Express trains on the N'EX) and transfer at Shin-Funabashi Station that takes 94 minutes in total but costs just 1,100 yen (41km/h). Sure it's nice to have the Express option for those who can afford it or are going on business so can expense it but the everyday Joe is going to take the cheapest option and it's good to see that we're competitive with speed and hey our fares are about half as much.

You could also take the Keisei Railway SkyLiner which takes 36 minutes (Japan's fastest non-Bullet train @ 160km/h). You could also take JR Sobu Line.
And you'd expect 6 different ways to get into a city of 13 million people!!!

Vancouver is NOT Tokyo.

[Metro-One]

I second that

Port Moody and Coquitlam have shown great advances in their urbanization in the mere anticipation of receiving skytrain (see the tower growth in downtown Coquitlam and Ioco in the past 5 years) while Surrey essentially allowed their existing skytrain stations to become low density slums. Only recently have they begun to reverse that trend, but too little, too late in regards to earning the next rapid transit extension.

If everything were equal right now (politics, planning stages, etc...) then yes, I would place the M-Line extension to Arbutus as #1, then the Evergreen as #2, then a coin toss between Surrey and UBC extensions.

But, everything is not equal.

Given the local political will towards the Evergreen Line vs. the community and local political resistance towards the M-line extension to Arbutus, and the shear amount of high level planning that has gone towards the Evergreen Line, there is no doubt in my mind the Evergreen Line needs to be built first.

[Zassk]

queetz@home, both of your criticisms of a UBC line are misguided. First you said:

Originally Posted by queetz@home

UBC is located in a far end of the Metro, with little prospect of growth

Then you said:

Originally Posted by queetz@home

$2.8 billion just to make travel faster to students while majority of taxpayers, some being former UBC students themselves, continue to get stuck in traffic with little transit options and have little choice but to use their car whether they like it or not.

Both are misguided, but let me start with the second one.

The taxpayers are trying to get to Central Broadway. It's the biggest destination after downtown, and a huge percentage of the travel in this region is due to people from the outside coming in - either to work or as patrons. Another large chunk comes from residents of this region. This is well-documented and not up for debate.

There is no way to improve travel in this corridor other than to dig something expensive. You can't add more buses and you can't add more lanes. Trying to divert some of the travellers onto other roads like 49th has only resulted in crises on those other routes. The only solution is to consolidate the travellers on an underground line.

As for UBC, you are completely mistaken about its prospects or intentions for growth. You should think of it as another suburb to the west of Vancouver, e.g. another Port Moody, because in a couple decades it will certainly exceed Port Moody in population. And much of that growth will be in the form of student housing.

Will those future residents near UBC want to travel out to the suburbs, when Central Broadway is so close? Probably not. We'd prefer them to travel to Central Broadway, and perhaps downtown Vancouver at the furthest, and we want them to do it on transit. We absolutely don't want them to drive to those places. There is no capacity left to absorb the extra buses or cars.

Think of UBC as a small suburb with big transit-oriented growth plans, like Port Moody. But unlike Port Moody, UBC is next to a huge established employment and residential hub, which makes for a better business case than the Evergreen Line, even with the larger price tag.

[golog]

queetz@home, you reach too far trying to score points and it all counts for nothing -- either you look foolish, or you do rally a band of dummies in support -- because this forum has a negligible impact to any decision. You're also just not familiar with the area between 4th and 16th Ave. By straying from your core argument, you undermine it.

The Evergreen line is next to go ahead, because a very prominent promise was made to that effect. If the promise is broken, it portends negatively for any future co-operation, something that should not be underestimated. I could go on with more reasons to support the project, but it's not necessary.

[12345678]

This may be off-topic: Does anyone know if the tunnel-boring machines used to build the Canada Line are still sitting somewhere in Vancouver, or have they been returned to the original owner (assuming that they are leased from a third-party)?

[Xerx]

Originally Posted by 12345678

This may be off-topic: Does anyone know if the tunnel-boring machines used to build the Canada Line are still sitting somewhere in Vancouver, or have they been returned to the original owner (assuming that they are leased from a third-party)?

they were returned(i think they were sent to Russia or something like that)

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

I'm not going to bother responding to personal attacks from others who simply disagree with me. But at the discussion at hand...



The money allocated for Evergreen is definitely not enough to extend to Arbutus. I doubt Vancouver would allow cheap cut and cover, nor will the creme de la creme allow elevated rail lines into their turf. Just do the math base on distance and estimated cost, it won't be $800 million.



No, the purpose of Evergreen Line is to extend the reach of the existing rapid transit network to the Northeast Sector. It will not only serve people from Coquitlam Centre to the Millenium Line but to make it accessible to people from Maple Ridge, Pitt Meadows, and PoCo who won't have to drive all the way to Burnaby, Whalley, New West or Vancouver for their final destination. It will also give transit options to those taking WCE but have a destination other than downtown.

And ULTIMATELY, it is to shape land growth in the designated growth area for a Metro that is constantly influx with immigrants so instead of a sprawly Coquitlam in the future that is so damn car dependent, you would have a densely populated transit oriented Coquitlam Town centre with high density housing along its route, such as what we already see in Ioco, Lougheed, and soon, Burquitlam. Those people in those neighbourhoods will simply hop on a train instead of their car and there ya go. Plus those people already living in single family homes from Westwood and Burke Mountain can simply drive or get dropped off, or even take shuttle buses, to the end of Evergreen and take the train to their destinations all over the region, not just downtown Vancouver at peak hours.

The Northwest Route was not decided because PoMo lobbied for it due to their selfishness, but because it made the most sense. Southeast was not a good corridor as it consists of big box stores, sparsely populated, was a former landfill, industrial setting, etc. Northwest has transit oriented developments, existing residences and businesses, most which was built under the assumption that rapid transit is coming.

As for the cost of university residence, in the words of Kevin Falcon...BOO HOO! Why oh why should the taxpayers continuously subsidize the students, not only on tuition and transportation, while they get so little in return. That kind of sense of entitlement is really what's driving the UBC Line argument, isn't it? $2.8 billion just to make travel faster to students while majority of taxpayers, some being former UBC students themselves, continue to get stuck in traffic with little transit options and have little choice but to use their car whether they like it or not. Don't take this the wrong way, allan, but please read the editorial again.

Oh I'm sure if we can all live close to our jobs or along the existing skytrain lines, that would be great. But until the prices of homes along those lines are affordable to every person now living in the Northeast Sector and Surrey, I think those people in poorly served areas deserve some of the services back for the contribution that they have provided, right?

Anyways, this will be my last response in this thread for a while (currently travelling). Ultimately, yes this has been flogged to death, and it saddens me that as an 11 year SSP vet, that the same argument since the Millenium Line is underconstruction is still going on and yet no REAL progress is being made in this line.

if its for people from poco and maple ridge than wouldn't a route going from coq centre to new west braid be much better? the tunnel is a waste of money there is only going to be one station on north road - such a waste

the route chosen isn't going to pick up any more people than going through the big boxes on the other route ITS ONE STATION only one! - the first station in port moody could just become the terminus station on the port moody offshoot from coquitlam centre

i Live in coquitlam and think its great but i think its a little premature to need it now - maybe in 10 years it will be better

i still don't believe it will be built - i've lived here since 1992 hearing its coming and 18 years later NOTHING and I don't believe it will happen

[nname]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

if its for people from poco and maple ridge than wouldn't a route going from coq centre to new west braid be much better? the tunnel is a waste of money there is only going to be one station on north road - such a waste

the route chosen isn't going to pick up any more people than going through the big boxes on the other route ITS ONE STATION only one! - the first station in port moody could just become the terminus station on the port moody offshoot from coquitlam centre

Well... you saved 2km by connecting the line at Braid, but you added 4.5km for the spur to Port Moody... Even if the tunnel cost more than twice as much as elevated, you're still not saving money...

And although there's only one station on North Road, it would be a major one. From the ridership estimate done in 1999, it would be bigger than all Port Moody Stations, and everything on the existing Millennium Line except Commercial, Brentwood, Production, and Lougheed.

[SpongeG]

meh they can walk or take the busses like they do now

[SpongeG]

All's quiet in old town as Port Moody awaits Evergreen Line

METRO VANCOUVER -- When the Hogan family opened Hogan's Restaurant and Lounge in Port Moody earlier this year, they figured the Evergreen Line would help rejuvenate the old town and bring in more foot traffic.

Months later, they're still waiting, partly because property owners and developers are holding off on any new plans until they're sure the SkyTrain line will come through town.

...

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/quiet+t...en+Line/3989993/story.html#ixzz18KMaoNKC

[Locked In]

Evergreen Line evictions displace businesses

Funding for transportation project remains uncertain

By KELLY SINOSKI, Vancouver Sun January 2, 2011 8:01 PM

Port Moody businesses are being given eviction notices to make way for construction of the Evergreen transit line, even though funding for the project is not in place.

And for some, such as Steven Tetu, owner of EBI Cruiser Parts, the deadline is looming as early as this month.

...

Source: Vancouver Sun

[golog]

does anyone know how much Translink will pay to Trassolini for his personally owned property(-ies) along the route? or if the 3rd station/route change he has intransigently argued for was to get more money personally (either due to Translink having to buy more properties, or to get more investment properties benefiting from proximity to a station)

[adrianroam95]

Originally Posted by golog

does anyone know how much Translink will pay to Trassolini for his personally owned property(-ies) along the route? or if the 3rd station/route change he has intransigently argued for was to get more money personally (either due to Translink having to buy more properties, or to get more investment properties benefiting from proximity to a station)

C'mon TransLink! It's "early 2011" already, I want to see some early signs of construction within the next few months. First, funding problems and now, troubles with issuing eviction notices? Get your act together, and start building.
I don't want to see this thing delayed until 2015 or 2016.

[racc]

Originally Posted by adrianroam95

C'mon TransLink! It's "early 2011" already, I want to see some early signs of construction within the next few months. First, funding problems and now, troubles with issuing eviction notices? Get your act together, and start building.
I don't want to see this thing delayed until 2015 or 2016.

It is not a TransLink project. The Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure is in charge.