Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[punface]

SpongeG I agree with you that Broadway should be the next line to be built. However, this line will still be improving times by 20-30 minutes, which is pretty significant.

Hopefully they all get built and people begin to see value in a complete network. More realistically, whoever is the mayor of Coquitlam in 2015 will be vocal in his/her opposition to any further rapid transit expansion.

[SpongeG]

i am happy for it not against it but its serves such a small population compared to what broadway would do

broadway would transform transit in the region not so much out here imo

oh well i still have no faith that it will be up and running anytime soon and all that money will go back to nothing

[SpikePhanta]

Hmm buy property along broadway, build the extension, sell the now high priced property that Translink got rezoned and use the profits to build Evergreen!!!!
if only ....

[nname]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

people living here now are going to burnaby, surrey, new west whatever they just use busses to get to lougheed town centre or whatever they do to commute

They use their car, not the bus.

Transit currently captures more than 30% of market share for medium-hual trips (between Vancouver, Burnaby, New West, and even Surrey, excluding CBD). But it only get about 10% for trips to/from the NES.

[itinerant]

Why doesn't Skytrain/Canada Line have express trains? I know not all stations have track that can bypass local trains at the station, but couldn't the line be altered to support that? WCE for long haul, Express trains for medium haul.

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by itinerant

Why doesn't Skytrain/Canada Line have express trains? I know not all stations have track that can bypass local trains at the station, but couldn't the line be altered to support that? WCE for long haul, Express trains for medium haul.

None of the stations have four tracks or a middle track that could be used for bi-directional passing. I suppose an eastbound train could pass a stopped train at stadium, but when I asked about that years ago they told me the amount time it would take the use the switches would make it pointless. Anyway, those passing or multiple tracks are usually used in systems that are either much high capacity than ours, or have very long trains that come much less frequently that ours.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Having such a tight headway also means it would be hard to find space to put the express trains in. Skytrain is plenty fast as it, so there wouldn't be a whole lot of point to it all, if you want more capacity, new trains (read wider) or longer stations are the way to go.

[twoNeurons]

SkyTrain IS Express.

People forget that the average speed of SkyTrain is quite high. Check out this page on Metro Speeds.

New York's Average speed is 28km/h (17.4mph)
Vancouver's speed between station is 44.6km/h between King George and Waterfront.

Interestingly, if you look at that Metro Chart, you'll see that the Express #4 and #5 Express only end up being a little faster than the #6 which is the local version (check out the comments).

In case anyone's interested in knowing, Toronto's system goes about 31km/h.

Note, that Vancouver's System was built in an era where it had to compete with the car. As such, station distances are longer.

Interestingly, speed doesn't make a huge difference.

Take Nagoya, Japan's Linimo:
It's an elevated urban mag-lev powered by Linear Induction built for the 2005 Expo. (Sound familiar?)
It has a max speed of 100km/h.
It travels 8.9km
It has 9 stations ( Each about 1km apart )
It cost about $100M/km (USD)
It takes ~17 minutes (according to Google Maps)
It's average speed, therefore, is only about 32km/h, slower than SkyTrain.

SkyTrain's Station spacing makes it, essentially, an express service. Super Express would likely be heavy rail.

Keeping this in mind, I think you'll find some people in the tri-cities who USED to take the WCE will opt to take the less expensive, but still quite speedy SkyTrain, especially if their final destination isn't close to Waterfront.

It will be more frequent, quite fast, run on weekends, and go to more destinations.

[DKaz]

I like the Narita Airport to Tokyo Station example the best. About 65km...

You could use JR East's Narita Express which takes as little as 54 minutes (72km/h) but costs 2,550 yen, or take the rapid trains (not the locals which stop at every stop, these ones stop every five to ten stations but use regular trains compared to the premium better than West Coast Express trains on the N'EX) and transfer at Shin-Funabashi Station that takes 94 minutes in total but costs just 1,100 yen (41km/h). Sure it's nice to have the Express option for those who can afford it or are going on business so can expense it but the everyday Joe is going to take the cheapest option and it's good to see that we're competitive with speed and hey our fares are about half as much.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by nname

They use their car, not the bus.

Transit currently captures more than 30% of market share for medium-hual trips (between Vancouver, Burnaby, New West, and even Surrey, excluding CBD). But it only get about 10% for trips to/from the NES.

and that probably won't change

I use my car 99% of the time unless it snows I will use skytrain

[Metro-One]

I bet it will, when my wife and I get a few more funds together we have been thinking of buying a condo in downtown Coquitlam in anticipation fo the Evergreen Line. If the line is delayed again, then o, we probably wont buy there, but if construction does commence in 2011 (or 2012 at the latest) then that is most likely the spot. That way I can stay within close driving distance of Maple Ridge (where all my family lives) and have the convenience of the WCE (for when I need to go directly downtown) and skytrain (to potentially take me to the WCE station (no park and ride!) and for whenever I need to go anywhere else on our transit system that is not downtown (which is 95% of my trips now).

And I am sure there are many more like me with similar plans.

Also, I can not count how many of my friends that live in Coquitlam who went to to UBC, that said if the Evergreen Line was built, then they would have taken skytrain to Broadway and the 99 from there, but because the trip as is was far to slow on transit, they drove (also, many of the had jobs in Coquitlam or were on tight budgets, hence moving out to UBC was not an option).

[SpongeG]

i don't buy it people prefer cars

my friends bought in marpole a year ago they just bought a car last month - he couldn't take the bus anymore and he has direct bus service down granville only 3 minutes from his place

now he drives everyday - transit sucks

if i had to deal with the transfer at broadway on a daily basis i would go crazy its horrible during rush hour

[Millennium2002]

Well as your story demonstrates there's a reason why they prefer the car atm over transit... something that could be reversed by more transit improvements (if they ever occur that is). In a way that kind of goes circular back into the debate about finances and priorities and etc.

[Mininari]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Also, I can not count how many of my friends that live in Coquitlam who went to to UBC, that said if the Evergreen Line was built, then they would have taken skytrain to Broadway and the 99 from there, but because the trip as is was far to slow on transit, they drove (also, many of the had jobs in Coquitlam or were on tight budgets, hence moving out to UBC was not an option).

Yep.
This was me, 2004 - 2006, two-year Masters Program.
I owned a small condo in Port Moody (right along the LRT / Evergreen route), had the B-line 97 stop right outside my door....

My first semester, 8:00am classes. So, instead of the 1:15 transit option, I drove. After a little navigating, I was able to jog in from Port Moody to UBC in 45-50min. Barnet - Hastings - Boundary - 1st - Victoria - Venables - Viaducts - Thurlow - Burrard St. Bridge - Pt Grey Road - 4th. Done.
Parking was usually a problem, but I could get around that by parking for free on Northwest Marine, along 4th, or 16th (the u-pass made it easy to hop on a bus for the final ride). Alternately, I parked for $5.00/day in the GVRD Park along NW Marine on campus. Some days I stayed until past 6:00 (to let the rush hour die down), or left early to go to my decent-hourly pay in Port Coquitlam... hwy 1, Mary Hill... took a while to get there too.

Trying to drive home from UBC during rush hour was hoooorrrribbble.
Now all the stores are open, schools are out, people are shopping, tradespeople are still driving around, combined with the commuters.
It would easily take 30 minutes longer to get home, than it did to go to UBC. The route through downtown helped until about 1st... then it was stop n go until I got to Broadway. Parker Ave. through Burnaby made things easier, and then the Barnet crawl.

Later on, I didn't have a class until 2:00pm, so I went to work in the morning, and out to UBC at around 12:30. I was usually able to catch the construction workers leaving around 2:00, and grab one of their free-parking spots along NW Marine. (Yeah, UBC is always a construction nightmare, eh?). Transit from UBC to the Kebet Way Industrial Park during the daytime is nearly impossible.

Bottom line: I had bills to pay, a job in Poco that paid well, and I was doing a 2-year program that didn't even require me to come in much during my 2nd year. No good reason to move, especially when I had just bought a condo.

What was frustrating though is UBC was undergoing a program during this time to try to reduce commuter traffic onto campus... except there really wasn't any alternative! Wheres the skytrain?

[queetz@home]

Personally, I dunno why ANYBODY would want to kill the Evergreen Line just because he thinks the UBC Line is more "important". Even in Manila, which has a very dense population where our "Coquitlam" like suburbs have 50 storey office towers, the most under-utilized line is LRT2 (the one that uses the same trainset as Canada Line), which is the line that traverses the "University belt" of this overpopulated third world metro filled with young people. Though 250,000 a day is under-utilized considering the other lines have at least 800k peeps a day.

There is a reason why University Lines are in a lower priority (even Seattle LRT is in the same boat) than lines that bring in people too and from work, especially in those areas that simply do not have decent transit as it is now, but at the same time, growing rapidly due to the less expensive housing (and we all know how unaffordable housing is in Westside Vancouver). And to add insult to injury, UBC is located in a far end of the Metro, with little prospect of growth (both from university and local residents opposing it). If you are concern about student commuters, why not just increase student housing?

Anyway, an old Editorial that makes absolute sense.

http://www.bclocalnews.com/surrey_area/langleytimes/opinion/105823603.html

Editorial — Students need refresher on planning

Published: October 26, 2010 4:00 PM
Updated: October 26, 2010 4:41 PM

Brush up on planning

The Alma Mater Society at UBC deserves top grades for communication but an “incomplete,” at best, in land use planning and economics for suggesting that rapid transit to the university deserves the same priority as SkyTrain expansion in Surrey.

The students get an A for publicizing their plea to get rapid transit service to the Point Grey campus before or at the same time as the province’s fastest-growing municipality but older and wiser folks would caution them to be wary of what they wish for.

Sure, it’s frustrating to watch an over-crowded bus pass you by when you’re late for physics class but, really, should students whose university career is short-lived get priority over property owners south of the Fraser who have been short-changed on transit for years?

Most of these students weren’t even born when rapid transit was first proposed for the Tri-Cities and Surrey, and if these regions are to curb sprawl and develop sustainable, liveable cities, they need rapid transit — and sooner rather than later.

Rapid transit to UBC, although certainly desirable, won’t pull nearly as many cars off roads as rapid transit to the Tri-Cities, Surrey and Langley. Transit is also crucial for the region’s economy — and the air shed. It will get people out of their cars and free up road space for goods-moving vehicles. Rapid transit to UBC will merely give students a more convenient ride.

And when many of these students move out to Coquitlam or Surrey or Port Moody after they finish their degrees, what do you think they will want to see within walking distance of their homes? A transit station, of course.

No one is saying TransLink shouldn’t improve transit to UBC. What Metro Vancouver is saying is, wait your turn.

When today’s students live in the ’burbs with a mortgage and a minivan, they’ll be glad someone had the foresight — and the cash — to build rapid transit where it’s really needed.

—Tri-City News

(Black Press)

[SpongeG]

i think a line to UBC is a waste but to arbutus or granville I support

my plan would be (of the ones beng studied or planned):
1 extend M-line to cambie/granville or arbutus
2 build evergreen line
3 build surrey extension
4 build ubc extension

[queetz@home]

My plan, which reflects the current plan that both Metro and the Province, as well as most SSP forumers that care about the subject agree too, would be:

1) Build Evergreen (after decades of waiting)
2) Build Surrey Extension (they already have Whalley Skytrain but took forever to densify it, especially under the governance of that ugly little troll known as Doug McCallum)
3) Build UBC extension (which frankly, should be last as per the Editorial and reasonings that I already explained)

Until Arbutus is going to densify AND BE AFFORDABLE, its a stupid plan to build it there. If you want to connect to Canada Line from Skytrain, just use Waterfront. Its not that far from Commercial to Waterfront via Skytrain. You can do it NOW but people in Coquitlam Centre can't even get to the existing Skytrain Lines so that they can travel to Burnaby, New West, Whalley and downtown Vancouver outside the WCE schedule in a freaking timely manner (97B-Line and 169 simply ain't worth it).

And as for Park and Rides, for Evergreen, they WILL BUILD PARK AND RIDES. Its in the freaking rendering! The lot beside Douglas will be a park and ride! The existing Coquitlam bus and WCE station and PoMo WCE has park and rides. And people already pointed out how even WCE riders can now have the option to go to other places in Metro if Evergreen was built! So WCE passengers won't only consist of 9 to 5 downtown workers....but also 9 to 5 workers in Burnaby, New West, East Van and Whalley!!!!

Can you please explain why spending the Evergreen money is more beneficial to no growth Arbutus?? I seriously doubt the creme de la creme that the Arbutus connection would reach would give up their luxury SUVs for a Skytrain to commute to the "loser burbs" anytime soon, assuming they want any of them at all to commute to their neighbourhoods!!! THe sheer amount of cost to bore a tunnel there...for what you get??? SHEESH! I'm glad you're not in charge for the sake of sanity!

[deasine]

Uhh... when did anyone say UBC isn't capable of growth? Does anyone actually know what UBC is planning to build within the next twenty years? Perhaps relative to a region like Surrey, UBC growth might not be as significant, but UBC is going to grow no doubt: this is why they are having "consultations" with regards to change of land use plans within the university campus.

The problem is, everyone's making these assumptions without collectively knowing individual plans and strategies of individual municipalities. You can't plan a SkyTrain line without knowing what goes on now, and what goes on in the future. Actually, this is how many American rapid transit systems are built: it's based on a bunch of executives who don't take any transit, heck, don't even live near the proposed transit line.

And to keep on mentioning that the "UBC Line" will only take students to UBC. No, that is wrong. The main destination of the "UBC Line" is the Broadway Commercial District. This is where the bulk of the ridership exists on the 99 B-Line. The UBC destination is only another one of the many destinations on the corridor, and it so happens to be the proposed terminus. Keep in mind, factor in what UBC is planning to build throughout campus, it won't "just be students" going to UBC, but also campus staff as well as regular commuters. What UBC is planning to do is what the entire region is essentially doing, forming different nodes across the entire region.

If you take a look at things carefully, it's not as simple as black and white. In fact, there's more than just grey in between the two.

With regards to saying SkyTrain improving transit in areas with horrible transit, I agree, that's what it tends to do. But at the same time, have we ever tried improving existing transit conditions without introducing expensive capital infrastructure? And no, introducing a supposed limited stop bus line doesn't count. To be honest, we haven't even tried other methods of improving transit within areas such as the municipalities of the Northeast or areas of the South of Fraser. Get straight down to the basics: re-evaluate existing bus routes and rewrite them if needed. Connect the dots, the nodes of the region. Implement measure on improving transit priority and speed. Make these transit routes easy, clear, and accessible. SkyTrain only provides an excuse to rewrite the bus system, but really, the approach should be rewrite the bus system before we start introducing the SkyTrain portion. The 97 B-Line is a weak attempt, if it can be considered an attempt at all.

[SpongeG]

its not about arbutus needing to densify its about being able to get to all the medical offices and shops along broadway that most people have to drive to or squish on an overpacked bus

i know people who live at commercial and work on south granville and the one person hates that she is forced to put up with full busses that pass her by or long waits to get to work - she has no options but to struggle to get there

I am sure she is amongst many who just want to get from east van to south granville

I only choose arbutus cause is that was that not the plan for the M-line extension? I thought it was alweays planned to extend the m-line to arbutus

the whole UBC extension is not part of it

[queetz@home]

By the time UBC is done with "consultations", many more people would have already moved to the Tri Cities and Surrey. More buildings, both residential and commercial, will have been built. And even if UBC does grow, I doubt most people can afford to live in that area anyway. Those that do end up living there, will they take Skytrain to the burbs or drive to the nearby Broadway Commercial district?

As for the Broadway commercial district, what they will get is an enhancement. There are already many buses that traverse that area very frequently, the time to travel from Commercial to a Broadway destination simply ain't as long as someone travelling from Coquitlam Centre to Lougheed or Braid. Even if you miss a bus in Broadway because it is full, another one will be there after a few minutes. Miss a bus in Coquitlam due to its unreliable schedule, you wait 30 more minutes for the next one plus travel time.

I'd also like to point out that its kinda funny how people bash Derek Corrigan because his city already has two Skytrain Lines but seems against rapid transit expansion for other municipalities. Is it really that different from people who already live near Skytrain Lines (such as near Lougheed Mall) and yet want other people who have absolutely no decent transit options to be denied yet again the long promised line that they have waited for almost an eternity and continuously paid their more than fair share of taxes from gas and property to subsidize yet again another city of Vancouver only multi-billion dollar subway?