Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Keith P.]

HRM does receive gas tax revenue, from the feds. The province does not transfer part of its share of the gas tax to HRM, because they need it themselves. HRM is a spend-happy bunch and until they learn to get that under control I would not support the province giving them one thin dime.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

HRM does receive gas tax revenue, from the feds. The province does not transfer part of its share of the gas tax to HRM, because they need it themselves. HRM is a spend-happy bunch and until they learn to get that under control I would not support the province giving them one thin dime.

Halifax is a growing city so people who think that the expenses should match inflation are out to lunch. A good measuring stick is the inflation rate and the population growth rate. Show me data indicating that the increases in expenses exceed the combined population plus inflation increase.

Property tax rates per average dwelling in the HRM are low compared to the rest of Canada. If you want spend-crazy then go to Toronto and Vancouver where they spend billions on mass transportation. The HRM council are a conservative minded group in comparison.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Well, then, guys, merry Christmas, but I don't think we can afford a stadium. I want a Lexus, or even better, a Maybach, but I can't afford that either. I could probably get financing for a Lexus but I wouldn't really be able to afford it. This is like that.

Are you suggesting that HRM should not have put any money into the 2010 Winter Games. I guess so because we can`t afford that either. However, we will have a great field house and be able to add the games to our resume as are result of this positive initiative.

[MaritimeCFLFan]

The current stadium rendering is not quite what I had hoped for but I do beleive this was put together rather hastily in order to meet the Dec 24'th deadline. However since this is what we have right now lets have some fun playing with potential modifications. Fenwick perhaps you could come up with a rendering based on my modifications.

First off the permanent seating in the lower bowl calls for 7,700 seats in a three sided arrangement. Could we totally enclose the lower bowl? This would bring the total permanent seating of the lower bowl to roughly 11,000 (my rough estimate).

Secondly I see the current plan for the sole upper deck calls for 1,800 permanent seats along with sky boxes and concessions. Lets for the fun of it try to triple the number of rows in the upper deck giving it 5,400 permanent seats. Now lets also duplicate this on the other side of the field (including sky boxes and concessions, washrooms, etc.). So now we have a total of 10,800 permanent sideline upper deck seats.

Thirdly lets add an upper deck to the endzone which currently is designed to include permanent seating. Make the 3,600 temporary seats all permanent. Now fill in the corners of that end zone upper deck to create a horse shoe look but with the sideline upper deck section beind 33% taller than the end zone and corners ( the 2 corners would hold roughly another 2,400 permanent seats combined). This would make a total of 6,000 permanent seats in this upper deck section.

The new total number of permanent seats becomes roughly 27,800.

I have no idea if these numbers make any sense at all but this is just for fun and I'm pretty bored. Also there would still be one open endzone section (excluding the sunken lower bowl) in which to play with for larger events requiring temporary seating.

[fenwick16]

The possibilities are endless. I don't think that anyone should get too caught up in the current rendering but instead think of what most people would like to see in a stadium but base it on an economical design. The only way that I can see of keeping the cost down is to think of ways to make the design as simple as possible but with all the desired features - sufficient washrooms, sufficient interior circulation space, adequate emergency exits, good sight-lines, etc. It would be good to have a per seat cost of no more than $2000 per seat (that is the cost of the entire stadium structure divided by the number of seats). I think that it should be a modular design which is built in a similar fashion to a multilevel parking garage.

This is a simple design (below) which I think will work well in the Halifax area. There could be a couple of levels of interior circulation space that can be used for washrooms, concessions, stairways, luxury boxes, wheelchair access, etc. I think it is best to keep the changerooms, referee rooms and even VIP in corner buildings that can be expanded as necessary. In some cases a sunken design may not be the best choice so I am doing one that is not sunken (however, if the land is naturally hilly then the land can be partially used as ramps, instead of specially built exit ramps which require a lot of space).

Plaster Sports Complex (source: http://www.prestressedcasting.com/images/photos/msusports/5.jpg )

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I really think that a stadium at a location such as Exhibition Park or even Shannon Park are doomed to fail. Even the cities that put stadiums on the fringe of municipalities (which are in the minority) at least look for locations that have public transportation.

Good thing both of those locations have public transit then, huh.

Originally Posted by fenwick16

If you check each one, you will see that they are not located on 40 acres in the middle of nowhere.

I would hardly call Shannon Park the "middle of nowhere"

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Well, then, guys, merry Christmas, but I don't think we can afford a stadium.

You don't think we can afford a stadium before you've seen any financial information at all? And you wonder why people compared you to Bruce DeVenne the other day...

Also if 25,000 seats is considered a Lexus or Maybach stadium, what would 60,000 seats be? Or 75,000 seats?
I would consider 25k seats to be more of a Civic or Corolla stadium. Moncton's stadium would be like the Toyota Yaris or Honda Fit stadium.

[someone123]

The new roof on BC Place is going to cost something like $500M. The Lexus comment is totally lacking in perspective.

I'm really tired of the negativity and happy to see that some projects are moving forward. Hopefully the stadium will follow. The reality is that these construction projects grow the economy and benefit everybody. Traditionally Halifax has gotten the lowest level of federal investment in the entire country because it didn't have the leadership to take on major projects worthy of funding.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

Good thing both of those locations have public transit then, huh.


I would hardly call Shannon Park the "middle of nowhere"

Could you tell em how many buses serve these two locations? Would you say that it is as easy to get to Shannon Park and Exhibition Park from anywhere in the HRM as it would be to get to the West Mall or Mainland Commons? In terms of potentially holding SMU or future Dalhousie University varsity (and yes I know Dalhousie doesn't currently have a varsity football team) then Shannon Park is figuratively in the middle of nowhere. I know you are being a smart-aleck, but why not give some real input on good sites for a stadium?

If Halifax is going to spend the money to build a 25,000 seat stadium then location is important. The cheapest location isn't the best.

[brettinhalifax]

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[brettinhalifax]

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[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Halifax is a growing city so people who think that the expenses should match inflation are out to lunch. A good measuring stick is the inflation rate and the population growth rate. Show me data indicating that the increases in expenses exceed the combined population plus inflation increase.

Property tax rates per average dwelling in the HRM are low compared to the rest of Canada. If you want spend-crazy then go to Toronto and Vancouver where they spend billions on mass transportation. The HRM council are a conservative minded group in comparison.

HRM is the master of wasteful spending. Look at their massive bureaucracy. Watch a council meeting sometime and see the parade of staff whose jobs seemingly are made up in bureaucratic heaven and who accomplish nothing of value. Look at the various debacles from the sewage treatment plant to the library to the entire garbage operation. There is no way anyone can defend the wasteful spending this bunch has done.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

fenwick - IMO regular bus service to the stadium is irrelevant. A football game, soccer match or concert will have special park & ride service from malls, downtown and transit terminals.

There is absolutely no way that regular transit service will be able to move enough people. You have to remember that all games/concerts will take place in the evenings or on the weekend when transit service is less frequent than at rush hour. There would need to be more buses than normally in service at that time.

So even if the stadium was on regular bus routes and those regular routes were used, Metro Transit would have to provide extra service (ie. special transit service for the game) So in the end, it doesn't matter if the stadium is on a bus route or not... special event transit service would be needed!

These are very good points which I agree with.

And as to building in "the middle of nowhere", I think that the "middle of nowhere" is actually a good location for a football stadium. So does thurmas, who put it well...

And at least three CFL stadiums that are now relatively central started out on the edge of town. McMahon stadium, Commonwealth and Ivor Wynne all had the city grow around it. (Commonwealth is a bit of a special case as it was built next door to the old stadium. Clarke Stadium was built on the edge of town.)

So IMO who cares if the stadium is built on the edge of town, in 50 years it will seem relatively central.

These points I totally disagree with. This idea that it doesn't matter where it is built, it will succeed anyway is just not realistic. Location does matter for a stadium. Just look at Percival Molson Stadium and how it has helped the Montreal Alouettes. Do you see a Dalhousie varsity football team deciding to get back into CIS football based on using a stadium at Shannon Park?

PS: How is being in the middle of nowhere good for people who take the bus to the game. Will they just fiddle their thumbs after the game while they wait for the bus to take them home? Wouldn't it be better to at least be close to a shopping area where they can shop before and after the game or go to a restaurant. There are some very good locations such as the West Mall area which are much better than a deserted area of the municipality. There are also areas that have existing parking that can be utilized. I don't think that you have really thought this out.

[Keith P.]

I know of no area having sufficient land for a stadium of any size that also has existing parking -- except Exhibition Park.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I know of no area having sufficient land for a stadium of any size that also has existing parking -- except Exhibition Park.

A stadium can fit on 10 acres. If located next to the Via Rail Station then there are thousands of existing parking spots in the downtown core, if located near the West Mall area there are existing parking spots, if located at the Halifax Mainland Commons there is existing parking at the new Canada Winter Games Centre and across the 102 at the Bayers Lake Shopping area, if north of the Forum there is limited existing parking but shuttle buses can be used to shuttle people from parking lots within a couple of kilometers (this is being done at NFL stadiums that I know of). This is something that can be done, it doesn't have to be surrounded by a sea of parking that will often be empty.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I know of no area having sufficient land for a stadium of any size that also has existing parking -- except Exhibition Park.

Put 2 levels of parking under the field area. During the week the stadium would be a massive transit hub like the New York Port Authority. During games/concerts the parking would be for fans and maybe even included in the ticket price. An expanded use for the stadium would help get it closer to downtown.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

Put 2 levels of parking under the field area. During the week the stadium would be a massive transit hub like the New York Port Authority. During games/concerts the parking would be for fans and maybe even included in the ticket price. An expanded use for the stadium would help get it closer to downtown.

Why not just put it in a location so that existing parking can be used (people could walk or take a shuttle much the way they would at Park N Fly locations and many centrally located stadiums)? Parking under the field has been done at McMaster Stadium but it will greatly add to the cost http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Joyce_Stadium .

I have concerns about having a stadium in an isolated location with a sea of parking that will add to the dead zone around a stadium. Rogers Centre was built without thousands of parking lots and isn't built on 40 acres (it is probably only about 10 acres). The idea of having a centrally located stadium isn't a far fetched idea - it is the norm in major cities.

In any case, if a suburban stadium is chosen then an area that has some public amenities such as restaurants and shopping would be best so that thousands of people aren't just standing around with nothing to do while they wait for buses (not everyone will have a car). For the sake of university football, it would also be good to have it close to the peninsula. Would there be 10 acres near the West Mall - there is office space parking in this area that won't be in use during sporting events. I think this is an even better location than north of the Halifax Forum and there would probably be less resistance from residents than another possible location that has been mentioned a few times - the Gorsebrook location (this would be a good location, especially if SMU would play their home games there, but will residents allow this location?).

[Empire]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Why not just put it in a location so that existing parking can be used (people could walk or take a shuttle much the way they would at Park N Fly locations and many centrally located stadiums)? Parking under the field has been done at McMaster Stadium but it will greatly add to the cost http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Joyce_Stadium .

It may be a challange to find a location with parking close by. Shuttles from Penhorn, Portland hills, Clayton Park and Sackville worked great for concerts on the commons and there is no reason why it can`t work for a stadium. To introduce underground parking might allow for a smaller urban footprint. Of course this would add to the cost but it may open up the potential for other stakeholders such as Metro Transit or allow for extra funding due to the expanded infrastructure use.

[fenwick16]

There was an article in the Chronicle Herald regarding the stadium and convention centre. The good thing is that a stadium is being talked about. However, at this point the idea of the HRM building a major 25,000 seat stadium is far from a reality.

Reading the comments associated with the article, it amazes me how ignorant some readers are. At least one reader thinks that the HRM will be paying $56 million over the next 4 years for the convention centre (it will actually be a lease with payments starting in 4 years). It must be frustrating being an elected official and having to deal with people who complain instead of researching the facts.

The article quotes Councilor Uteck as agreeing with Mayor Kelly which would tend to indicate the SMU Stadium project. I am not really against such a plan, I actually like that location instead of on the fringe of the municipality, but if $30 million plus private funds will be put into the SMU stadium then I hope that it will be something significant that could be used for the CFL. This is possible, as others have pointed out, but it would require something with a small compact footprint such as the Percival Molson Stadium in Montreal. I would be elated if such a stadium were built at SMU. But to be done then I think it would have to be partially built over the Tower Centre. SMU could build a significant stadium at that site if there is the will to get it done and give Halifax the chance of having a University/CFL suitable facility. Maybe it could be shared with a future CIS Dalhousie team. Maybe they could even consider Gorsebrook if there isn't room on the SMU campus.

(source: http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/1219219.html )

Projects won’t put taxes up, Kelly says

By DAVID JACKSON Provincial Reporter
Tue, Dec 28 - 11:43 AM

With big-ticket projects like a convention centre and sports stadium talked about for Halifax, who could blame the municipal taxpayer for worrying that taxes are going up?

But Mayor Peter Kelly says taxpayers can rest easy. Their bill won’t rise for the municipality’s $56-million share of the convention centre project, which still awaits a federal contribution.

And he said it’s much too early to know what impact a stadium would have on ratepayers since there’s isn’t an actual proposal yet. The city would require a stadium if Canada wins its bid to host the 2015 FIFA Women’s World Cup and Halifax is approved as a host city.

In an interview Monday, Kelly emphasized there’s only one project — the convention centre — at the level of a request before the federal government.
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As for the World Cup, Kelly said Halifax met the Christmas Eve deadline to submit its expression of interest for being a host city if Canada gets the event. The city would need a stadium with at least 20,000 seats, a project that would cost an estimated $30 million.

That could set up a funding split among the three levels of government of $10 million each. Kelly said building a stadium for the city is a matter of when, not if, but it’s too soon to say what the impact on taxpayers could be.

He said variables include involvement from the private sector, the universities in the city and other levels of government.

"Right now, that’s premature until council determines that is the route or the direction they wish to take. We need to keep our eyes on what’s before us, and clearly the convention centre is before us."
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[MaritimeCFLFan]

I'm not in favor of building a stadium for Halifax at SMU unless it has 25,000 to 30,000 permanent seats and can be expanded to 45,000+ for large events. As I see it there is no way this can happen at SMU. I once thought Sue Uteck was in favor of seeing a stadium built for Halifax but I'm pretty sure all she cares about is a new stadium for SMU (10,000 seats or so). Sorry but I have to say again either build this right or it should not be built at all.