Halifax Stadium Discussion

[halifaxboyns]

I think the goal should be to aim for 20,000 seat base with expansion to greater (say in the 35,000 seat range) as the market conditions and demand warrent. I suspect that if a team landed in either Moncton or Halifax, there would be tremendous support, but I wonder just how often the place would sell out at first. Let's face it, whenever a team starts up - the support is high at first (because everyone wants them to do well); but if the team does badly - the support drops off until it does better. The only exception to this that I know of is Sask fans - they go because they are nuts (I mean devoted lol).

Here, I think we'd be a little bit more rational. There would always be those die hards that would support the team no matter what - but it may not be the same level of support at the begining - it would take time to reach a Sask level of fans, regardless the location.

If you have a stadium taht starts at 20,000 it would probably do well at first depending on the team. If the team did really well; the support would stay. It would also depend on how the club did in marketing the team and events - one thing which Sask does very well (which could be something to look at).

Considering my lack of understanding - I'm going to ask (probably) a dumb question. Could not a stadium be built that functions both as a soccer field and a football field with the same turf?

[wespidel]

I agree Fenwick if they were to make the skybox side stands bigger, the lower deck and upper deck in rows and do the same on the other side with skyboxes, concession stands and washrooms, than Fenwick they should have 25 plus thousand permanent seats and probably would cost around 65 to 70 million which would be a great facility, expanding to 45 to 50 in the endzones. What do you think Fenwick could they do it for less.

What scares me that this looks like a stadium for Saint Mary`s and than we are completely screwed, it`s over and if they build this same facility somewhere else unless they build a minium of 25 thousand permanent seats with all the amenities, than we are over too, done. We will never attract a CFL team and owner or any other MAJOR professionaL SPORTING event and never a Grey Cup Game, or any major concerts. What`s so insane about this outdoor mickey mouse facility is that the Metro Centre which a inside facility is bigger and seats over 11 dollar and this tiny wee liittle faciliy only holds 9,500 permanent seats and it`s outdoors. This is 2011 and Halifax is over 400,000 thousand and to even consider building a tiny little facility like this is an embarrassment to the people of Halifax and very insulting. Why even bother building it period!

[halifaxboyns]

You know Fenwick; I drove past the forum site probably a dozen times now while home. While I doubt because of cost and time it could ever happen - I really could see a stadium there someday as part of a multi-use facility. Or at least...potentially.

[fenwick16]

I really don't think there is a consensus right now on what facility to build. The rendering was done in order to meet the December 24th deadline for FIFA submissions to Soccer Canada. Based on what I have read, the province and HRM are on a very tight schedule in order to decide whether or not to proceed (a HRM staff report is due early in the new year). So I really don't think that the WHW rendering will be the same as the final stadium proposal (if it proceeds). Based on what I have read, it seems as though the HRM wants something bigger than this. I hope to see more information coming from the HRM in the new year.

I don't think that this rendering was intended to be for St. Mary's University (they don't have 40 acres to build such a facility).

Just to answer halifaxboyns, yes the same field could be used for both soccer and the CFL (the Commonwealth Stadium in Edmonton is often used for soccer matches).

[halifaxboyns]

I have to agree with Fenwick; I suspect it was something done up quickly to respond to a deadline. That's not surprising; it happens a lot in government lol.

Thanks for the info about the field - that makes me feel better that the facility could function for more than one group. One of the issues that's big in Calgary lately is the loss of a domed soccer facility because the inflatable dome keeps collapsing in the winter - now they want to make it permanent, but it will result in the loss of those fields until the roof is built and there is no $ to do it. I'm not sure how popular soccer is in HRM; but building a facility like this (and holding a FIFA event) could easily create a huge demand for more fields.

[wespidel]

I mean 25 permanent seats, Fenwick the model the city presented, how many more rows would have to be increased on the upper and lower decks and if it was matched on both sides with skyboxes and all the amenities like their showing on the drawing of the double decker but bigger, what would be the cost. Fenwick by the drawing can you tell if the seating is benches or backed seats.

[q12]

I agree with Fenwick as well, I think this is only an early preliminary stadium rendering just to meet the deadline and that if the city is going to proceed, this design will change to match what HRM really wants for a stadium.

From Events Nova Scotia http://eventsnovascotia.com/userfiles/file/StadiumConceptWHW_Dec24_2010.pdf

Stadium Concept
In mid November, 2010, WHW Architects was invited to assist Trade Centre Ltd with a conceptual stadium design

The concept design is very schematic in nature and provides little architectural or structural detail from which to calculate an accurate budget for construction

Notice the backed seats in this image.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by wespidel

I mean 25 permanent seats, Fenwick the model the city presented, how many more rows would have to be increased on the upper and lower decks and if it was matched on both sides with skyboxes and all the amenities like their showing on the drawing of the double decker but bigger, what would be the cost. Fenwick by the drawing can you tell if the seating is benches or backed seats.

Based on my understanding, the WHW model wasn't actually presented by the city (municipality). It was through Trade Centre Inc. who is handling the FIFA bid. The city is currently examining the feasibility of building a stadium and Mayor Kelly is looking for corporate sponsors (based on what I have read). However, based on Mayor Kelly stating that he wanted a 25,000 - 30,000 seat stadium then there is some disagreement on what a stadium should look like (Mayor Kelly and other Councillors seem to want something similar to what you want, a 25,000 seat stadium).

If you read about the FIFA Cup presentation at City Hall, The Trade Centre Inc. recommended that HRM not proceed with the bid because of severe time constraints. It was Councillor Darren Fisher who stood up and said that the HRM needs a stadium now and a majority of Councillors supported him since they voted to proceed in spite of the Trade Centre Inc. recommendation not to proceed. So you can see there isn't really a consensus on what should be built.

About your question regarding the number of extra rows needed, more renderings are at this link - http://eventsnovascotia.com/userfiles/file/StadiumConceptWHW_Dec24_2010.pdf . For the upper rows they are estimating 200 people per row times 9 rows = 1800 (the stands would actually have to be about the length of the bottom section to get this many). So an extra 20 rows would give an extra 4,000 people. Then if there were another 29 row upper stand on the other side, then this would add another 5,800. So it would add 9,800 to what they have drawn.

To get 25,000 you would need approximately two sideline sections of seating that are this size below (if there is no endzone seating). This stadium (Plaster Sports Complex) actually seats a total of 16,500 but the stands on the other side are much smaller)

(source: http://www.prestressedcasting.com/port_msusports.php )

[Keith P.]

That looks tailor-made for Exhibition Park, right down to the configuration of the practice ground and the parking lots.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

That looks tailor-made for Exhibition Park, right down to the configuration of the practice ground and the parking lots.

It is a nice suburban stadium. But in my mind, people go to stadiums to see excited sporting events. Going to a tranquil suburban location to see exciting sporting events seems like an oxymoron to me. It would be like putting the next Metro Centre at Exhibition Park. In my opinion, going to a location such as the Rogers Centre in downtown Toronto to see a sports event is more than just the sports event - it includes the hustle and bustle of the city, thousands of people, an impressive stadium, the sports event itself, etc. A tranquil stadium at Exhibition Park will be missing some of those ingredients.

[Empire]

It's good to see amenities included in the early design such as skyboxes, concessions, admin, VIP section and TV viewing. Hopefully these items won't cut too many seats out of the budget.

[thurmas]

Football stadiums are better suited for suburban areas though because they host so few events every year and they are so large that they create dead zones downtown when not in use. Baseball parks and hockey arenas are good downtown because they host 40+ games and 80+ games a year football just 10.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Football stadiums are better suited for suburban areas though because they host so few events every year and they are so large that they create dead zones downtown when not in use. Baseball parks and hockey arenas are good downtown because they host 40+ games and 80+ games a year football just 10.

Would a stadium such as Edmonton's Commonwealth Stadium only be used 10 times a year?

PS: The problem with locations such as Exhibition Park and Shannon Park is that they are isolated with almost no public transit and few neighbouring public amenities, the primary way to get to them is by car. There are a couple of locations such as the Commodore Drive location in Dartmouth near Dartmouth Crossings and the Halifax Mainland Commons (some of the parking could be shared with the new Canada Winter Games Centre) that are better locations with better public transit. I can see why stadiums are often associated with universities since they get more use - CIS football and CFL football. Percival Molson Stadium has been a life saver for the Montreal Alouettes and it is almost right in downtown Montreal. All of the Toronto football locations have been near the downtown (Varsity, Exhibition and Rogers Centre).

PS: Does anyone have statistics on stadiums in Canada and how many events each one gets per year?

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

PS: Does anyone have statistics on stadiums in Canada and how many events each one gets per year?

I don't have the numbers offhand but hockey arenas top the list - ACC in Toronto and Bell Center in Montreal are the two busiest, unsurprisingly. Hockey seasons entail far more games than football and events in hockey arenas are far less weather-dependant. Commonwealth Stadium hosts a handful of concerts in addition to Eskimos games, for example, but they only do so over the summer.

[fenwick16]

I really think that a stadium at a location such as Exhibition Park or even Shannon Park are doomed to fail. Even the cities that put stadiums on the fringe of municipalities (which are in the minority) at least look for locations that have public transportation. If this is the only option then Halifax will be better served by an expanded Huskies Stadium (in my opinion). An Exhibition Park stadium will be no more successful than the current Exhibition Park facility.

Here are the locations for CFL team stadiums (you can zoom in on each location):
http://www.sportmapworld.com/map/canadian-football/canada/cfl/
Here are the locations for NFL team stadiums:
http://www.sportmapworld.com/map/american-football/usa/nfl/

If you check each one, you will see that they are not located on 40 acres in the middle of nowhere. Certainly more consideration can be given to a stadium location than to say that it should be at a location with no public transportation.

I will just be blunt here and say that comments indicating that a stadium must have 40 acres is a pile of BS. Major cities go to a great deal of effort looking for good locations for major new sports infrastructure such as stadiums. A stadium can be built on 10 acres and be at a location with existing parking or have parking within walking distance (the parking doesn't have to be on the same block). Even though a stadium won't get as many events as an arena or a baseball park, one in a good location could very well get 30 - 40 events per year (a stadium in a good location won't only be used for 10 football games a year - what kind of BS is this?). Unfortunately though, one in a poor location might only get 10 CFL teams a year and probably in the end it will get none because the team will be doomed to fail.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Just to clear up any misconceptions, the Moncton Stadium is not a large enough venue for the CFL, it only has 10,000 permanent seats (currently expandable to about 21,000 with temporary end zone seating).

Well, then, guys, merry Christmas, but I don't think we can afford a stadium. I want a Lexus, or even better, a Maybach, but I can't afford that either. I could probably get financing for a Lexus but I wouldn't really be able to afford it. This is like that.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Well, then, guys, merry Christmas, but I don't think we can afford a stadium. I want a Lexus, or even better, a Maybach, but I can't afford that either. I could probably get financing for a Lexus but I wouldn't really be able to afford it. This is like that.

That is a very poor analogy. You probably do have a car but one that you can afford. In order for your analogy to be legitimate then you should have decided to forgo a car and use public transit.

I don't really want a Lexus, even if I could afford it. I prefer something sensible - an economical, reliable car. Which is what most people would like in a stadium.

If people have concerns about building a 25,000 seat stadium then one option would be to build just one stand that seats about 12,000 with room to build another stand on the other side if it shows its worth. This is what I would suggest (except with a partial roof for all the people in the Maritimes with Irish, Scottish or British blood who burn easily in the hot sun, the people who tan could sit in the sun):

(source: http://www.prestressedcasting.com/port_msusports.php )

[q12]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Well, then, guys, merry Christmas, but I don't think we can afford a stadium. I want a Lexus, or even better, a Maybach, but I can't afford that either. I could probably get financing for a Lexus but I wouldn't really be able to afford it. This is like that.

What an uninformed statement. "I don't think we can afford a stadium".

How can you make a statement like that until you find out all the facts on the cost, how much private investment there will be, and if we can get our share of federal funding.

This attitude is what is wrong with all the naysayers in this city and province. You should be on the Herald forums with the rest of the whiners.

[wespidel]

That`s my thought and I agree with all the ignorant negative remarks and specially from certain too many city councillors that should be gone.

If Halifax can`t bulid a CFL model 25,000 plus permanent seat stadium in a city and all the necessary needed features with a city with 410 thousand people and a total of 560,000 in a hour and a half of the city un the province then they should not build a stadium. Also Dexter owes the city of Halifax a lot. He does not give any gas tax money to the city which Mayor Kelly spoke out of reasonly because most all cities do and that explains why we are being taken at the pumps when our price is 6 to 8 cents higher than NB. It`s time Dexter steps up after alll his lies to become leader and promised no HST hike and increased it after he got power. Dexter just spent 600 thousand dollars on an inquiry. It time get gives back to the city of Halifax and the province and helps in a big way to build a 75 million major stadium so we get what we need in a stadium for the size of our city.

Dexter said on the radio finally after hiding for 6 months that his main priority is the Convention Centre even after he was confronted with survey numbers showing 75 % of the people of Halifax prefer a stadium over a Convention Centre. He said in a rude way over aire that until Mayor Kelly shows him a proposal for a stadium than he has no comment.


SO THAT IS EVEN MORE REASON AND EVEN MORE IMPORTANT THAT MAYOR KELLY PUSHES A MULTI PURPOSE 25 THOUSAND PLUS CFL MODEL STADIUM BUILT IN HALIFAX, EXPANDABLE TO 50 THOUSAND IN THYE END ZONES

THE PERFECT LOCATION IS RIGHT ACROSS FROM SAINT MARYS, THERE IS ENOUGH LAND, I BELIEVE IT`S OWNED BY THE FEDS AND MAYBE THE CITY PARTLY, NOT SURE BUT IT WOULD WORK WELL, IT`S THE LAND WITH A OLD RUN DOWN TENNIS COURT AND OUTDOOR RINK NOT USED FOR ICE HOCKEY ANY MORE BUT WHERE THEY PLAY GROUND HOCKEY AND THERE IS A OLD SCHOOL NEAR

[q12]

http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/local/article/727389--11-questions-with-mayor-peter-kelly--page2

Question to the mayor 4 days ago

Will Halifax get going on a stadium in 2011?

We understand there’s some appetite from the federal government and we’ve had some preliminary discussions with the private sector, where there’s a desire to see where this is going to go ... We want to make sure it’s a concerted effort. We can’t go on our own; we have to make sure we work with all the stakeholders. So are we getting a stadium? My hope is this is one we will be able to bring to fruition. It doesn’t have to be an elaborate stadium, and it can be different from the one envisioned with the Commonwealth Games bid, but it’s a major piece of sport infrastructure we don’t have.

I agree with him that it does not need to be an elaborate stadium, but I still think he believes that 20,000- 25,000 permanent seats is the right way to go.