Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by golog

buses work well when travelling at capacity with stops every 100 - 200m.

The problem is that when at every stop there is always 1 or more people getting on and off. It slows the bus down especially when people have to fight there way to get off and on. It also doesn't help when people don't move to the back right away.

The number of people on a route in Vancouver on a bus can change dramatically has that bus travels that route. Also the people on it can change dramatically. I've see the #41 leave joyce full. Be almost 1/2 empty by Victoria then almost full again by the time it gets to cambie. With maybe only 5% of the original riders still on it.

When your on a route like the 701 that might be packed but most people are travelling the entire route it makes it easier.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by golog

buses work well when travelling at capacity with stops every 100 - 200m.
express busses stopping every 1 - 2km work well at efficiently diverting crosstown trips, bolstering the transit network at least cost
grade separated trains work well when express bus routes are at capacity, stuck in their own congestion, and having demand outstrip their expansion to other routes. they still stop every 1-2km, but dwell times are shorter, there is no congestion to make schedules efficient/reliable and travel speed is about double. profit goes up because operating costs are lower for that level of ridership

beyond that we can expand the network to intercity trains, with stations every 100-200km

Just wonder where does streetcar belong in your classification...
Streetcars are unlikely to have stops every 100-200m i guess? Does it means that Prof PC idea of replacing buses with streetcars would fail?

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by cabotp

While I can't comment on how packed the buses are out in Surrey and Langley and such places.

What I'm wondering is even though the buses might be packed. Do you see a lot of people getting on and off at stops or is more of a case of the bus is packed but not very many people getting on and off. Mostly people just going the entire route.

This the biggest problem with buses in Vancouver. People constantly getting on and off. Which is why I don't like the narrow isles. They make it so that there are 2 seats on one side and 1 seat on the other. Or make it only 1 seat on either side. Or make long sideways seatings seats. Yes there will be less seats for people to sit. But there would be more standing room thus allowing people to get around more easily.

Well, you have to remember though there are a lot of people in Surrey and especially Langley that are travelling a long way. When you travel a long way it is very nice to have a seat. It can get a bit tiring having to stand for 30 to 40 minutes on some routes where the bus is constantly starting and stopping (that much balancing can be hard on some people). A lot of people would probably avoid the bus if they KNEW that when the bus shows up at their stop there would be a 100% guarantee there would be no seats for them.

The Orion buses on the South Surrey and Delta suburban runs are arranged to maximize seating, because it is such a long journey, that without those seats people wouldn't ride. No one wants to get on a bus knowing they are going to stand for 40 minutes. Not every bus needs to be designed like it is a downtown bound trolley.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by CLC

Just wonder where does streetcar belong in your classification...
Streetcars are unlikely to have stops every 100-200m i guess? Does it means that Prof PC idea of replacing buses with streetcars would fail?

Didn't you know? Streetcars are in fact a perfect replacement for all forms of transit. They are faster, cheaper and more efficient than anything!

Ding ding!!

[golog]

Originally Posted by CLC

Just wonder where does streetcar belong in your classification...
Streetcars are unlikely to have stops every 100-200m i guess? Does it means that Prof PC idea of replacing buses with streetcars would fail?

In my opinion, streetcars suit a function identical to buses. Buses can travel fast in a separate lane along a highway, they can travel slower within traffic. There are a few minor tradeoffs like streetcars cannot pull over to the curb, buses would require an expensive exhaust system in long tunnels. They both suffer from the same mistake when trying to operate a single service across grade separated and at grade, extinguishing any possible advantage by mixing the two types.

Streetcars did have a greater advantage in the past when roads+buses were not comparable to rail+trains on many levels.

Since buses are more flexible and can today take advantage of already built roads, streetcars have a smaller niche limited to mature routes that will not be outgrown by demand with enough ridership to deliver payback from a small operating cost advantage. Their additional benefits are a ride that people apparently find more attractive or pleasing, ability to run routes where space is tight or minimal disruption is desired (eg just 2 rail lines on the ground within grass), and maybe a visible anchor to a route/neighourhood.

Looking at Vancouver, I would suggest streetcars have an opportunity for routes along

main routes that are important enough on their own but will never be upgraded beyond at-grade transit due to a parallel subway line nearby
eg: Main or Granville

routes that have sufficient sources/destinations, yet won't be a top tier route due to lack of feeders/transfers, as is the case with waterfront
eg: 4th/Granville Island/Olympic Village neighbourhood/Science World/Stadium/Casino/Beach/West End/Stanley Park/Gastown

Proposing spending money on Broadway to replace an existing insufficient bus service with an equivalent streetcar line is like proposing a local road with stoplights (ahem, Island Highway... gotta save money somewhere on the project budget for theft... ahem) instead of ever building Highway 1.

What do we need to spend all this money on a Patullo bridge replacement for, let's just install a ferry service. Makes perfect sense, the savings could pay for a hundred times as many miles of new local roads. Local roads can host traffic travelling up to 160 km/h and they cost a lot less than highways or bridges.

Someone should start a localroadsforthevalley.wordpress.com blog

After that, let's get to work on upgrading airports from a few big ones to a larger network of nothing but small ones with a single short runway. localairportsforthevalley.wordpress.com is also available

Finally, localsailboatsfortheisland.wordpress.com should tackle replacing the inconvenient, unattractive and expensive BC Ferries service. All kinds of new routes would be possible, riders would have the chance to enjoy the scenery, and a single boat could go right up shallow inlets while later crossing the Georgia Straight (Salish Sea?) using the outboard motor... it would be a fantastic renaissance

I know of a guy that works for a local university who would publicize the heck out of these ideas. Maybe someone would care to write a letter of introduction and forward these brilliant plans -- it's unbelievable to think that this has not already been done! Mother nature has been wrong all this time, tree tips should be the same diameter as the trunk ... in fact the whole thing should look like a wireframe cube. It's amazing that I can breathe at all with such antiquated bronchial structures in my lungs... or thinking, how could I be thinking using the boorish neural networks in my brain... it's all wrong

p.s.
What do you think of outlawing elevators in Metro Vancouver? We could build more staircases, and have portions of those staircases be escalators.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Well, you have to remember though there are a lot of people in Surrey and especially Langley that are travelling a long way. When you travel a long way it is very nice to have a seat. It can get a bit tiring having to stand for 30 to 40 minutes on some routes where the bus is constantly starting and stopping (that much balancing can be hard on some people). A lot of people would probably avoid the bus if they KNEW that when the bus shows up at their stop there would be a 100% guarantee there would be no seats for them.

The Orion buses on the South Surrey and Delta suburban runs are arranged to maximize seating, because it is such a long journey, that without those seats people wouldn't ride. No one wants to get on a bus knowing they are going to stand for 40 minutes. Not every bus needs to be designed like it is a downtown bound trolley.

Right now whenever a new bus is ordered they always put it on the routes in Vancouver. This is because they will get the most use out of them while the warranty is good. Thus all the opening of doors, constant stopping starting etc. With all that extra wear and tear the warranty will cover a good portion of the costs.

It would be nice if they could have a certain seating pattern for when the bus starts service in Vancouver. But when it gets older and is going to be moved into other locations. Then they could change the seating pattern. Thus more seats for places like Surrey and Langley and less for a place like Vancouver.

Even still on the Nova's I noticed there isn't much that can be done by the rear stairwell as the wheel wells on either side are in the way. So taking a seat out on either side or sitting those seats sideways would not help.

[SpongeG]

when did the lighting effects start on the canada line near lansdowne? looks good - never saw them before last night - they also have light things projected onto the sidewalk - they had giant snowflakes.... looks really good

[deasine]

They had it quite a while now. Definitely much better than the older version... I wish they had it a longer portion of it with those lighting effects.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by deasine

They had it quite a while now. Definitely much better than the older version... I wish they had it a longer portion of it with those lighting effects.

Are they actually going to extend the lighting effects beyond the Lansdowne area? Or are they just gonna stick with what they've got currently?

[Locked In]

Has Translink's Transportation Tomorrow presentation been posted yet? And did anyone go the UDI talk on Tuesday?

[Vancity]

I was thinking about Vancouver's transit just the other day, and I've been traveling in HK for about a week now. It's come to my mind that HK's transit is just awesome. It is wonderfully convenient, I don't even know where to begin. I was thinking that HK has these mini buses they use to transport people all over, and was thinking why Vancouver wouldn't go that route as well? they have buses, and trains, yes, and we keep improving these aspects of transportation, but why not add this element of mini bus to move people all over the smaller routes, that the skytrain, or the main buses don't? i was wondering if this idea would work in a city like Vancouver?

[SpikePhanta]

Originally Posted by Vancity

I was thinking about Vancouver's transit just the other day, and I've been traveling in HK for about a week now. It's come to my mind that HK's transit is just awesome. It is wonderfully convenient, I don't even know where to begin. I was thinking that HK has these mini buses they use to transport people all over, and was thinking why Vancouver wouldn't go that route as well? they have buses, and trains, yes, and we keep improving these aspects of transportation, but why not add this element of mini bus to move people all over the smaller routes, that the skytrain, or the main buses don't? i was wondering if this idea would work in a city like Vancouver?

We do have some small community shuttles.
They put them on routes with ridership but not enough ridership to warrant a normal sized bus.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by SpikePhanta

We do have some small community shuttles.
They put them on routes with ridership but not enough ridership to warrant a normal sized bus.

Yeah. But they are far and few between. I'm talking about encouraging people to get on transit (skytrain, buses, etc). These mini buses could bring people to those locations, and more. They could bring them to stops near malls, other residences, or even smaller retail sections, where major buses don't often go to. In HK, there are a ton of these mini buses, and they go all over the place. They have stops in front of malls, in front of 7-11's, they have stops in front of apartments, so people can line up, and go to the nearest transit station, or they even go into other parts of the city. They are a cheaper mode of transportation, and they can even act as a means of bringing people to the major transportation hubs. I'm just saying, these mini buses have a regular route, and in HK, they are on time. On the dot. I wonder if Richmond in particular, could implement something similar to that of HK's model of the mini bus?

Btw, here's a pic of the mini bus in HK.

[twoNeurons]

I love Paris' microbusses:

Actually the source article has some great images of bikeways in Paris as well.

Quebec has 'em too:

[CLC]

Originally Posted by Vancity

Yeah. But they are far and few between. I'm talking about encouraging people to get on transit (skytrain, buses, etc). These mini buses could bring people to those locations, and more. They could bring them to stops near malls, other residences, or even smaller retail sections, where major buses don't often go to. In HK, there are a ton of these mini buses, and they go all over the place. They have stops in front of malls, in front of 7-11's, they have stops in front of apartments, so people can line up, and go to the nearest transit station, or they even go into other parts of the city. They are a cheaper mode of transportation, and they can even act as a means of bringing people to the major transportation hubs. I'm just saying, these mini buses have a regular route, and in HK, they are on time. On the dot. I wonder if Richmond in particular, could implement something similar to that of HK's model of the mini bus?

Translink's community shuttles supposedly serve similar purpose, isnt' it? River Green advertisement also states it is going to have "frequent shuttles" (operated by Translink?) to connect to Aberdeen station.
Of course, becasue of HK density and everyone used to transit there, the minibuses are flourishing and in many cases able to compete well enough with other modes (including MTR).

[deasine]

Originally Posted by CLC

Translink's community shuttles supposedly serve similar purpose, isnt' it? River Green advertisement also states it is going to have "frequent shuttles" (operated by Translink?) to connect to Aberdeen station.
Of course, becasue of HK density and everyone used to transit there, the minibuses are flourishing and in many cases able to compete well enough with other modes (including MTR).

No no no. Community Shuttles ≠ Hong Kong's Minibuses. That being said, Mini Buses won't probably work out well in Vancouver as we don't have enough population to support it.

Hong Kong's Minibuses are actually just another mode of transport to commute throughout the city. Unlike Community Shuttles, Hong Kong's Minibuses aren't necessarily restricted to being a "feeder bus" to the subway system. Essentially, you ride by waving the minibus (and it will stop... anywhere, even though it's "subject to traffic regulations"), and you call for a stop, anywhere. Two types of minibuses: green and red. Green buses have specific fixed routes, fares, and scheduling. Most also have specific stops. Some green minibuses have options to pay portions of full fares (i.e. traveling smaller distance). Red minibuses don't necessarily have specific fixed routes and scheduling (though most do). They do not have specific stops, except for the two terminus on one route. Fares aren't specific and can fluctuate greatly between routes. Red minibuses are often more expensive. Some red minibuses are 24 hours. Most red minibuses only take cash, no octopus card.

Minibuses in Hong Kong are amazingly fast, and that's because all drivers break the speed laws. Can you imagine going 110 km/hr through Vancouver's downtown with traffic all around you? It's somehow possible in Hong Kong (and yes, you know it's 110 km/hr because of the LED display on the front).

Personally speaking, if I'm not in a rush, I wouldn't take the minibuses because it's quite a bit more expensive than other options. When I lived in Hong Kong, if I had a lot of time, I would take the crazy slow but amazingly cheap tram. If I had some time, it would be the regular bus. If I'm running short in time, I would take the Express (more or less the same price as the regular buses) or Express + MTR.

You can sort of think Hong Kong minibus as a fusion between taxi service and buses. While drivers are part of the Public Light Bus Association, they make and control some of the profits through fares. The association and its drivers are also subject to Government Regulations, but Red minibuses aren't as regulated as green ones. Keep in mind, Hong Kong's transportation system is privatized and separate. It works in Hong Kong because there is a huge population base. It also works because driving is almost impossible in the city.

[CLC]

^ Good explanation. I know Hongkong minibuses (particularly red ones) are versatile, but I was cheap so seldom used them

Though as I remember I have taken short-haul (loop-like) minibus routes it was fixed HK$2. Those are somewhat like community shuttles.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by CLC

Though as I remember I have taken short-haul (loop-like) minibus routes it was fixed HK$2. Those are somewhat like community shuttles.

Yeah there are a few smaller ones to the limited areas up around Kowloon and South Hong Kong Island because buses don't get to those areas (i.e. mountainous areas), but generally, they aren't really feeders.

[red-paladin]

Does anyone know what happened tonight at Joyce-Collingwood Station?

I was taking the train home from downtown and our train was stopped for a long time at Nanaimo station. Initially they said Joyce was closed, then said 29th, Joyce and Patterson were closed and we would have to take the Millennium line to get to the other side. I ended up having to take a bus and finally got home. One of the other passengers said someone was run over by the train at Joyce, but I have no idea if that's true.

[afreak]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

Does anyone know what happened tonight at Joyce-Collingwood Station?

I was taking the train home from downtown and our train was stopped for a long time at Nanaimo station. Initially they said Joyce was closed, then said 29th, Joyce and Patterson were closed and we would have to take the Millennium line to get to the other side. I ended up having to take a bus and finally got home. One of the other passengers said someone was run over by the train at Joyce, but I have no idea if that's true.

Attendants o/s person struck and trapped under SkyTrain VFRS heavy lift rescue team enrt

VFRS rpts pt thrown clear 50 meters not trapped heavy lift team stood down BCAS o/s treating

Removed from scene, train back in service. Victim under full arrest when transport by BCAS.

These were around midnight last night.