Calgary Public Transit II

[Koolfire]

Originally Posted by mersar

2009-2011 Operating budget can be found here

Looking at the budget there are two things I don't get. 7th Ave refurbishment has a budget in 2013? Shouldn't it be done mostly by the end of 2011 and complete with WLRT in 2012?

Second, I see 201 is scheduled for 4 car station lengths by 2013. But were is 202 budgeted? Whitehorn is already being done to 4 car length. There isn't enough budgeted under "Buildings & Stations" for 6 stations to be refurbished.

Edit: Reading deeper 7th Ave refurbishment to 4 cars is budgeted $10,000 for 2014 as well. I don't get it.

[CTrainDude]

Originally Posted by Koolfire

Looking at the budget there are two things I don't get. 7th Ave refurbishment has a budget in 2013? Shouldn't it be done mostly by the end of 2011 and complete with WLRT in 2012?

Second, I see 201 is scheduled for 4 car station lengths by 2013. But were is 202 budgeted? Whitehorn is already being done to 4 car length. There isn't enough budgeted under "Buildings & Stations" for 6 stations to be refurbished.

Edit: Reading deeper 7th Ave refurbishment to 4 cars is budgeted $10,000 for 2014 as well. I don't get it.

Maybe streetscaping?

[mersar]

Originally Posted by Koolfire

Looking at the budget there are two things I don't get. 7th Ave refurbishment has a budget in 2013? Shouldn't it be done mostly by the end of 2011 and complete with WLRT in 2012?

Second, I see 201 is scheduled for 4 car station lengths by 2013. But were is 202 budgeted? Whitehorn is already being done to 4 car length. There isn't enough budgeted under "Buildings & Stations" for 6 stations to be refurbished.

Edit: Reading deeper 7th Ave refurbishment to 4 cars is budgeted $10,000 for 2014 as well. I don't get it.

Well my reading into it is the Whitehorn might be getting done under the 'LRT station refurbishment' line item (656-15W) which had 14M in 2009 and 14M in 2010 as I can't figure out where else that money would be going to (some I can see potentially for the work on the bus loops at Brentwood, etc, but not that full amount). Or possibly the 655-14W which is 'LRT infrastructure lifecycle rehabilitation', as those are terms I've heard tossed around as to what the work at Whitehorn is. Or even the general Buildings and Stations item, which has like 6.8M over the 3 years.

[Koolfire]

Originally Posted by mersar

Well my reading into it is the Whitehorn might be getting done under the 'LRT station refurbishment' line item (656-15W) which had 14M in 2009 and 14M in 2010 as I can't figure out where else that money would be going to (some I can see potentially for the work on the bus loops at Brentwood, etc, but not that full amount). Or possibly the 655-14W which is 'LRT infrastructure lifecycle rehabilitation', as those are terms I've heard tossed around as to what the work at Whitehorn is. Or even the general Buildings and Stations item, which has like 6.8M over the 3 years.

656-06W - 4-Car Platforms-NW and South Stations (TIIP) had 15 Million budgeted this year but I don't remember any NW or South Stations getting 4 car length stations. Maybe this is were the money came from. There is another 15 Million budgeted next year so we'll know soon enough once the next station get refurbished.

[DizzyEdge]

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/City+s...+southeast+Train+line/3774868/story.html

City staff urge delay in long-awaited southeast C-Train line

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by Koolfire

656-06W - 4-Car Platforms-NW and South Stations (TIIP) had 15 Million budgeted this year but I don't remember any NW or South Stations getting 4 car length stations. Maybe this is were the money came from. There is another 15 Million budgeted next year so we'll know soon enough once the next station get refurbished.

Why did they not build these stations for future capacity......or the ability to very easily expand???? These must be the same guys running road construction in the city........no future plans??

[fusili]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/City+s...+southeast+Train+line/3774868/story.html

City staff urge delay in long-awaited southeast C-Train line

Facepalm.



Why are we building commuter transit for Airdrie and Cochrane when our system isn't even complete yet? Commuter transit to outlying towns should be the last priority of any transit system. Airdrie and Cochrane can buy their own damn buses.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by fusili

Facepalm.



Why are we building commuter transit for Airdrie and Cochrane when our system isn't even complete yet? Commuter transit to outlying towns should be the last priority of any transit system. Airdrie and Cochrane can buy their own damn buses.

The reason is Green Trip has both a very clear mandate on requiring regional transit, and unclear political direction on whether non-inter-jurisdictional projects are allowed to draw from it. The bureaucrats have to recommend the safe answer on how to get the funds, and they have.

To be honest, building the SE LRT as envisioned with this amount is really shitty. Does everyone in the SE want to hike down to 10th Ave and Macleod Tr to get on their wonderful transit?

Council needs to really reject both visions, and go back to the drawing board. There are better ways to get the SE LRT done than what they have asked for.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by fusili

Why are we building commuter transit for Airdrie and Cochrane when our system isn't even complete yet? Commuter transit to outlying towns should be the last priority of any transit system. Airdrie and Cochrane can buy their own damn buses.

I think it's high time we start charging differential rates for LRT fares. You live outside of Calgary, you can pay a premium. Don't know how the hell you'd handle this outside of monthly passes mind you...

That's just ridiculous that instead of improving transit for Calgary residents, we'd spend the money on adding more capacity for out-of-towners.

Blah blah, provincial funding - which doesn't cover operational costs.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I think it's high time we start charging differential rates for LRT fares. You live outside of Calgary, you can pay a premium. Don't know how the hell you'd handle this outside of monthly passes mind you...

That's just ridiculous that instead of improving transit for Calgary residents, we'd spend the money on adding more capacity for out-of-towners.

Blah blah, provincial funding - which doesn't cover operational costs.

The funding is specifically for regional needs. All those extra trains - it is not like that many out of towners really are taking the train - plus the cost of an extra user on the LRT is minimal, even fully distributed it is like 0.60. Every out of towner taking the ctrain is contributing far more than someone arriving via a city of calgary bus. As long as the regional shuttle buses to the LRT stations have a separate fare structure, it is all good.

[Wooster]

Every other major city's rapid transit infrastructure is built with major contributions from the federal government. Why isn't this the case in Calgary?

Why does SELRT have to be built with 2/3 greenTRIP 1/3 municipal funding. Why not a mix like that of Canada line with Federal, Provincial, Municipal and Private funding?

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Wooster

Every other major city's rapid transit infrastructure is built with major contributions from the federal government. Why isn't this the case in Calgary?

Why does SELRT have to be built with 2/3 greenTRIP 1/3 municipal funding. Why not a mix like that of Canada line with Federal, Provincial, Municipal and Private funding?

Calgary builds so much that matching funds for every project would limit our funding by quite a bit, and funding is set by population, and Calgary has a relatively low population.

[kw5150]

For the people living way out in the far off suburbs....... what did you expect? You KNEW what you were buying into...... now you have live with it for a while. It may take years to get LRT transit because a good portion of the province and city's money has been spent on roads. You can't have it all!

Cities do not get built overnight. The SE LRT will happen eventually. In the meantime, you will just have to grin and bear it......there is always the ring road.......

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by kw5150

For the people living way out in the far off suburbs....... what did you expect? You KNEW what you were buying into...... now you have live with it for a while. It may take years to get LRT transit because a good portion of the province and city's money has been spent on roads. You can't have it all!

Cities do not get built overnight. The SE LRT will happen eventually. In the meantime, you will just have to grin and bear it......there is always the ring road.......

So, you are suggesting we not provide people with a choice between cars and transit? And are you suggesting we not provide people like me, who have no choice but to ride transit, access to large parts of the city? Just because I don't live in the suburbs doesn't mean I don't have to go places (like say the massive employment areas of the SE industrial parks) that are not central.

[DarkKeyo]

Ugh. There is so much wrong with this whole idea. We shouldn't have to choose between SELRT and a BRT system, because both are necessary short term. I'm going to nitpick that article a bit. Or, reading what I've written down here, generally rant a bit...

We shouldn't be designing our LRT system to accommodate people from Airdrie and the other exurbs, although we do need to expand capacity on it now, for the people who already ride it, which is what the 4-car trains by 2014 are for. Didn't we order enough trains as part of that 4-car expansion?

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

All those extra trains - it is not like that many out of towners really are taking the train - plus the cost of an extra user on the LRT is minimal, even fully distributed it is like 0.60. Every out of towner taking the ctrain is contributing far more than someone arriving via a city of calgary bus. As long as the regional shuttle buses to the LRT stations have a separate fare structure, it is all good.

I agree with this .

We should also keep in mind that the SELRT, but ONLY in complete form, will add a lot of ridership to the system, on parts that aren't already overloaded, and that the reasons the SE BRT isn't generating ridership are because it takes too LONG for buses to travel that distance on the existing road network; and that unlike the LRT, it doesn't have a feeder bus system going to it; it generally doesn't encourage people to walk to it; and the park-and-ride is not an attractive option for such a long and slow bus route.

And, I thought that taking cars off roads was the point of GreenTrip. A SELRT and a NLRT will take many, many cars off of roads, particularly Deerfoot, whereas people from exurbs will either drive anyways, or use the inter-city buses to get to LRT. This is "bang for your buck" just as much as BRT to Forest Lawn is. And why are they even mentioning service to people who live south of the Glenmore Resevoir? They have the same (probably underused) suburban feeder bus routes to the LRT that all suburbs have.

If we do anything, I think it should be: expand capacity on the lines we have, as planned. Create Intercity bus routes to the LRT, as planned, with a separate fare system. Build the entire SELRT, as soon as it's financially possible, and include the study for the NCLRT in the planning process. Create more BRT, proper BRT if possible, where it is needed, such as Forest Lawn.

Isn't most of that part of the campaign platform of Mayor Nenshi?

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by DarkKeyo

So, you are suggesting we not provide people with a choice between cars and transit? And are you suggesting we not provide people like me, who have no choice but to ride transit, access to large parts of the city? Just because I don't live in the suburbs doesn't mean I don't have to go places (like say the massive employment areas of the SE industrial parks) that are not central.

No, of course not. I am saying they will have to be patient.

[mersar]

Originally Posted by DarkKeyo

Didn't we order enough trains as part of that 4-car expansion?

A grand sum of 0 LRV's have been ordered specifically for the 4 car expansions, as of now. The only existing order was to handle the WestLRT, as well as NW and NE extensions, and replacements for retired LRV's. Any LRV's needed for the expansions probably won't be arriving until closer to when the expansion is done, and at this time CT is pretty tight on space again, so the OBMF expansion also needs to be done before then too. Expanding stations on both lines to 4 car will probably need another 20-30 LRV's is my guess.

[Bender77]

Originally Posted by mersar

Expanding stations on both lines to 4 car will probably need another 20-30 LRV's is my guess.

The Calgary Herald story makes it sound like we will need 50. Or is that to replace some old LRV's as well?

[fusili]

Originally Posted by kw5150

For the people living way out in the far off suburbs....... what did you expect? You KNEW what you were buying into...... now you have live with it for a while. It may take years to get LRT transit because a good portion of the province and city's money has been spent on roads. You can't have it all!

Cities do not get built overnight. The SE LRT will happen eventually. In the meantime, you will just have to grin and bear it......there is always the ring road.......

Thanks for writing that. Although people should have some level public transit, people living in the suburbs should not expect to have great transit. I am a strong proponent of using transit as an incentive to live closer to the city and in denser areas. Right now it seems Calgary is doing just the reverse- providing good transit to far flung suburbs and terrible service to the inner city. People need to be given the incentives and disincentives otherwise our transit will be perpetually ineffective.

[mersar]

Originally Posted by Bender77

The Calgary Herald story makes it sound like we will need 50. Or is that to replace some old LRV's as well?

Well 50 actually wouldn't be that far off either.

Considering the 201 alone at peak frequency of 5 minutes and around 100 minutes to do the full trip and back (give or take), you'd be looking at 20 more LRV's, and the full 202 (Saddletown to 69th) would be similar. Of course the spacing isn't exactly even between trains but that would be closer to 40. Plus reserve capacity to allow for maintenance and breakdowns. We'll probably also start replacing some of the U2's by that time as well, though not too many.