Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[deasine]

To be honest, the MK III doesn't look too much more advanced or sleek than the newer metros these days, but it does offer some good improvements.

Interesting to note that the MK III looks to have its windows and doors all in the same location as the MK II.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by golog

[*]Local news story announcing Mk III cars

They are also called Innovia ART (Advanced Rapid Transit) 300

However, I am not aware of any news if the Mk III found a market yet? Any buyer?

[officedweller]

I think Bombardier has re-branded all of its trains "Innovia" - including monorail.

Originally Posted by golog

Mk III trains are in development, but I can't tell how they compare in terms of width. References for facts and pictures below:

• Technical Background for original Expo line
  
• SkyTrain presentation for Ottawa
  
• Railway Interiors Feature on New MkII Cars
  
• April 2010 Bombardier Sales Pitch in Sweden
  
• Local news story announcing Mk III cars

Nice - thanks for the info.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I think Bombardier has re-branded all of its trains "Innovia" - including monorail.

I believe all the automated ones are now INNOVIA. I'm guessing the want a brand just like how they have FLEXITY as the name for all their light rail vehicles.

[Gordon]

I wonder if Translink is looking at the Mark 111 trains? Is there any info (specs) on the Mk3s?

[SFUVancouver]

Well the Mark 111 trains are still probably a few hundred years away, but while we wait for them to perfect their levitation system the Mark 3 is probably are sure thing for us in the near future. I cannot see Bombardier keeping the Mark 2 in production once they launch the Mark 3 and I'm sure they will be every bit as compatible as the Mark 2 is for systems that started with the Mark 1.

[mr.x]

^ what are we going to do about the Mark II C-cars that we will need once Bombardier stops production of the Mark II? I don't see Translink ordering them anytime soon, but they will be needed eventually...

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Gordo has resigned.

Will the UBC line ever get built now?

I was glad to hear Campbell had resigned, but did not realize that he would have been so instrumental in getting the UBC line built.

Surely there is some one - either an individual politician, or a group - to whom the torch can be passed and who will get that line built. Most people here on SSP Vancouver know the necessity of the line - part of the real "backbone" of the Metro Vancouver rrt system.

If we needed GC to pull it off, does anyone have a suggestion as to who could do it now? (and what technology would be best, BTW ??)

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

Well the Mark 111 trains are still probably a few hundred years away, but while we wait for them to perfect their levitation system the Mark 3 is probably are sure thing for us in the near future. I cannot see Bombardier keeping the Mark 2 in production once they launch the Mark 3 and I'm sure they will be every bit as compatible as the Mark 2 is for systems that started with the Mark 1.

That's reassuring. Thanks for that info.

[squeezied]

I'm wondering if Diane Watts would be supportive of the UBC line.

[djh]

Originally Posted by squeezied

I'm wondering if Diane Watts would be supportive of the UBC line.

Very unlikely Diane Watts would put that as a priority over other jurisdictions. Not only would all of her Surrey provincial voters (assuming she became an MLA) consider it a massive betrayal of Surrey First, but she has even come out and said something along those lines - that the UBC Line should not be allowed to jump the queue.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by mr.x

^ what are we going to do about the Mark II C-cars that we will need once Bombardier stops production of the Mark II? I don't see Translink ordering them anytime soon, but they will be needed eventually...

I could be wrong here. But I don't see Translink using the C-Car for the MKII trains. What I do see happening is the lengthening of the station platforms to 100 M thus enabling a 6 car MKII train.

Originally Posted by djh

Very unlikely Diane Watts would put that as a priority over other jurisdictions. Not only would all of her Surrey provincial voters (assuming she became an MLA) consider it a massive betrayal of Surrey First, but she has even come out and said something along those lines - that the UBC Line should not be allowed to jump the queue.

Exactly what queue did the UBC line jump. It has always been the next project after the Evergreen line.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by cabotp

I could be wrong here. But I don't see Translink using the C-Car for the MKII trains. What I do see happening is the lengthening of the station platforms to 100 M thus enabling a 6 car MKII train.



Exactly what queue did the UBC line jump. It has always been the next project after the Evergreen line.

Incorrect. The BROADWAY line was always after the Evergreen. It was approved as far as Arbutus.

The UBC line is fairly new and probably will be phase II.

[golog]

Originally Posted by djh

Very unlikely Diane Watts would put that as a priority over other jurisdictions. Not only would all of her Surrey provincial voters (assuming she became an MLA) consider it a massive betrayal of Surrey First, but she has even come out and said something along those lines - that the UBC Line should not be allowed to jump the queue.

• Broadway Line was bumped back by the Expo Line due to provincial politics and priorities
• Broadway Line was bumped back by the Millennium Line jumping the queue due to provincial politics and priorities
• Broadway Line was bumped back by the Canada Line, AND the Evergreen Line due to provincial politics and priorities along with municipal politics

A report by a couple of bureaucrats that recommended a Surrey Line take equal or greater priority if only one can be built by 2040 based on loose projections, I don't see how Surrey deserves to be first in line.

There is a presumption that it is not even just for Surrey, but for all the neglected South of Fraser communities who benefit the most from billions of Translink dollars on bridges and highways which offload their own municipality's traffic.... but once there is a concrete proposal, everyone who presumed their life would benefit will realize that most of them are disappointed since the population is too spread out to make most of them happy

There is an argument that it's too expensive to live closer to work, and thus a new line is necessary. It may not be a free choice, as we can't put growing up and forming a family on hold, but renting is an alternative to ownership. Housing bubbles come and go, indeed they are a regular feature in the lower mainland although the current one is certainly a record. So when the new suburban homes can barely be given away, and homes closer to work are affordable -- do the then new families deserve to be punished for living closer to work and in a community that contributes enough revenue to sustain the services they would like?

If Watts does become premier, there won't be enough money to start anything right away. If she's still in power around the end of Evergreen's construction, the whole housing market will be much different than it is today and there won't be unified support for a Surrey extension since most will be unhappy. Judging by the globalair photos of the last 3 decades and the pattern of growth along the Broadway corridor forming a business district ring outside downtown, the fact developers are the biggest political influence in local politics up to the provincial level, that the demand for a Broadway Line service is a sure thing -- either a Broadway Line is first to be constructed, or there will be a schism in Translink and Vancouver leads its own project

The biggest factor is the real estate market. Outer burbs get hit the hardest as taxes don't cover services, properties at the fringe can only compete on price, and development fees dry up. All the cities will be hit, and while Vancouver may be hit the hardest in terms of lost notional wealth, it will be the first place new developments go ahead and have its average prices sustain the highest level.

Longer term, yes Surrey will continue to grow, and this contraction will help prepare the city for the next phase of growth in a more efficient way. But Surrey won't have the clout to skip two steps ahead for something discretionary at this time. LRT today might make sense, there is room for it and it can be laid quickly. However, as everyone is keen to point out, Surrey is growing. There will come a time when there is too much congestion, and more transit demand. At which point you're behind having sunk money into an LRT network delivering the service of a local bus, and needing to build a fully grade separated rail network.

The greatest features of Metro Vancouver have come from taking it one step at at time. Even Dubai can't make the magic happen while skipping steps, with all the money that was spent there.

p.s.
Broadway 25 years ago: http://www.globalairphotos.com/gallery/BC/Vancouver/Central/1985/
Broadway today: http://www.globalairphotos.com/gallery/BC/Vancouver/Central
Guildford 24 years ago: http://www.globalairphotos.com/gallery/BC/Surrey/Guildford/1986/
Guildford today: http://www.globalairphotos.com/gallery/BC/Surrey/Guildford/2010

[djh]

Originally Posted by golog

• Broadway Line was bumped back by the Expo Line due to provincial politics and priorities
• Broadway Line was bumped back by the Millennium Line jumping the queue due to provincial politics and priorities
• Broadway Line was bumped back by the Canada Line, AND the Evergreen Line due to provincial politics and priorities along with municipal politics

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabotp View Post
I could be wrong here. But I don't see Translink using the C-Car for the MKII trains. What I do see happening is the lengthening of the station platforms to 100 M thus enabling a 6 car MKII train.



Exactly what queue did the UBC line jump. It has always been the next project after the Evergreen line.
Incorrect. The BROADWAY line was always after the Evergreen. It was approved as far as Arbutus.

The UBC line is fairly new and probably will be phase II.

Precisely, twoNeurons. I'm talking about the UBC Line. They are talking about the Broadway Line. Not the same.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Incorrect. The BROADWAY line was always after the Evergreen. It was approved as far as Arbutus.

The UBC line is fairly new and probably will be phase II.

I would consider the UBC / Broadway line one and the same thing. The difference is one is the completed version. The other the not completed version.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by cabotp

I would consider the UBC / Broadway line one and the same thing. The difference is one is the completed version. The other the not completed version.

Exactly! Now ... if only we could take one baby step forward by connecting the Millenium Line at VCC to the Canada Line at City Hall/Broadway .......

... or am I being irrational?

[Spikester]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Exactly! Now ... if only we could take one baby step forward by connecting the Millenium Line att VCC to the Canada Line at City Hall/Broadway .......

... or am I being irrational?

No, you're being rational. That's the problem. Rationality and politics too seldom coincide.

[officedweller]

For the Millennium Line - under the NDP - the line to be built by Rapid Transit Project 2000 Ltd. had 2 phases. The existing Millennium Line is Phase 1. Phase 2 consisted of both the Vancouver West segment (to Granville or Arbutus) and the Port Moody-Coquitlam (PMC) segment, but the PMC Line had advanced faster than the Vancouver West Line.

I think that the Province at the time had agreed to fund the Vancouver West segment up to Granville (even though it was proposed to go to Arbutus). At the time it was never contemplated that SkyTrain go all the way to UBC.

Even when the City of Vancouver studied "Beyond the B-Line" SkyTrain was never contemplated all the way to UBC. The all rail to UBC alternative was LRT. The other options were SkyTrain in various increments (with rapid bus) with Arbutus being the farthest west.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by cabotp

I would consider the UBC / Broadway line one and the same thing. The difference is one is the completed version. The other the not completed version.

As OfficeDweller alluded, one could call the "Millennium and the "UBC Line" the same thing, in that case. One is the starter version, and one is the completed version. Phase II was cancelled when the governments changed hands.