Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[Gordon]

Has Translink even decided what service model they will use when the Evergreen line is built? i thought the most likely model was Expo Waterfront - King George & Evewgreen Line VCC Clark - Douglas College, with a shuttle between Coumbia & Lougheed

[TransitFreak]

Originally Posted by Gordon

Has Translink even decided what service model they will use when the Evergreen line is built? i thought the most likely model was Expo Waterfront - King George & Evewgreen Line VCC Clark - Douglas College, with a shuttle between Coumbia & Lougheed

Based on what SFUVancouver said, they may be leaning towards terminating current Millenium line trains at Lougheed. This would keep the same frequency on the shared Expo line section, and provide a connection to the new Evergreen line. If that's the case, the 3rd platform might be used for the new truncated service (think of it as the terminus station of Richmond-Brighouse, YVR-Airport). Transferring between the 2 lines will be slightly inconvenient as all transfers involving the Millenium line would require an up and down transfer, not cross platform.

[Zassk]

Or they can just tear out the 3rd platform and use cross-platform transfers for everyone...

Frequency at Lougheed is currently not as frequent as at Bridgeport, right? I would think that there's plenty of time to fit the terminus trains from Columbia in between the through trains going to/from Coquitlam.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by cabotp

And since he comes up with the idea that the Canada Line as only 10,000 new riders and it is a success. That his new line to Chilliwack should only need 2,000 riders and be considered a success.

My observation is that the Canada Line already had a lot of assured ridership and so its projected ridership figures had a fairly high degree of confidence. He's saying that everyone on the Chilliwack line will be a new rider, but that means his figures for ridership are a lot less reliable.

[TransitFreak]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Or they can just tear out the 3rd platform and use cross-platform transfers for everyone...

Frequency at Lougheed is currently not as frequent as at Bridgeport, right? I would think that there's plenty of time to fit the terminus trains from Columbia in between the through trains going to/from Coquitlam.

Supposedly, the peak hour frequency is to be 2-3 mins, which is more frequent than Bridgeport. Ideally, I'd love to see a Bridgeport layout for Lougheed, but it doesn't appear to be in the offering...

One last thought, the renderings show 2 car MKII trains (old Millenium structure). After seeing and using 4-car MKII's, I don't think I could get used to the 2-car again, which begs the question - would you rather have 2 min 2-car train frequency, or 4 min 4 car frequency?

[Zassk]

It seems odd to imagine Evergreen having better frequency than Expo Line gets today. I'm a little bit skeptical of this idea of having short MK II trains flying out to Coquitlam every 2-3 minutes like a machine gun. The ridership is only going to be 70,000 in the sunny-day scenario, so these trains will be nearly empty if we run them so often. If frequency is so important, then we can eliminate the funding gap by building 35 m platforms and running 2-car trains for the first 20 years!

[Gordon]

If the Evergreen line is going to operate a 1 continuous line between Dougas College & VCC Clark Stn four Car MK2 trains trains operatng at current (ME)frequencies will be required.

[Zassk]

The Evergreen plan calls for changing from 4 cars at the current frequency to 2 cars at double the frequency. But these cars will no longer be going to Waterfront, they'll be going straight out to Douglas, so their ridership will be lower. The 21,000/day that currently ride from Lougheed to/from Columbia will no longer be on these trains.

[Gordon]

How does the ridership on the Millenium Line compare to that of the Expo Line?

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Zassk

It seems odd to imagine Evergreen having better frequency than Expo Line gets today. I'm a little bit skeptical of this idea of having short MK II trains flying out to Coquitlam every 2-3 minutes like a machine gun. The ridership is only going to be 70,000 in the sunny-day scenario, so these trains will be nearly empty if we run them so often. If frequency is so important, then we can eliminate the funding gap by building 35 m platforms and running 2-car trains for the first 20 years!

The Millennium Line today already exceeds 70,000 riders per day. With the Evergreen, it should be in the excess of 100,000:
- increased ridership along the whole M-Line route from people who don't like having to plan their transit trip, who just want to arrive at the station and knowing a train will be there.
- new ridership from the Tri-Cities area.
- bus ridership transfers in the Tri-Cities area
- new ridership from regional access to Tri-Cities via SkyTrain

As for 35-metre platforms, loll, please...no. Did you forget about the Broadway West extension?

Originally Posted by Gordon

How does the ridership on the Millenium Line compare to that of the Expo Line?

Expo Line eats M-Line.

M-Line: 70,000+
Expo Line: 190,000+

[officedweller]

70,000 is decent for an incomplete line (truncated at BOTH ends) - but still, it started out with about 60,000 per day, so that's not much of an increase despite the development along the line.

[Gordon]

If Skytrain operates as it now sounds that it will I wonder if Translink will be abel to run short turn trains to & from Metrotown to add capacity to that section of the Expo Line?

[CLC]

Originally Posted by officedweller

70,000 is decent for an incomplete line (truncated at BOTH ends) - but still, it started out with about 60,000 per day, so that's not much of an increase despite the development along the line.

may I know when did it reach 60000 per day? I rode M-Line regularly since its first week of service (Sep 2002) till 2005 and observed how its ridership gained. I can believe if 60000 was a figure around 2005, but not at the start.

[TransitFreak]

Originally Posted by Gordon

If Skytrain operates as it now sounds that it will I wonder if Translink will be abel to run short turn trains to & from Metrotown to add capacity to that section of the Expo Line?

My thoughts are that they will not short-turn at Metrotown, as that section will still have the 2x Expo, 1x Millenium trains frequency in that section, which is the current max rush hour schedule.

What the possible new routing would do is lessen the number of trains servicing the new millenium route (rough calc reduction of 32 cars or 8x 4-car sets - new route would be 38 mins long, at 5 min frequency, roughly 7 trainsets each direction, so 14 trainsets vs. current route of 57 mins long, at 5 min frequency, roughly 11 trainsets each direction, so 22 trainsets = 8 trainsets, or 32 cars).

These savings would help offset the new cars needed for Evergreen. Assuming 33 mins VCC-Clark to Douglas at 3min peak frequency, that's 11 trainsets per direction, so 22 trainsets needed for Evergreen. Subtract 8 from above, that's 14 new trainsets (or 44-cars) that's needed. Would have to order a few more for spares, + maybe a bit more to convert entire fleet to be either 6-MKI's or 4-MKII sets, that would be nice.

[TransitFreak]

Just thought of something...if new Millenium will be Waterfront - Lougheed, then Millenium and Expo line will be nearly identical in trip duration: 38 (30 to Columbia + 8 Columbia to Lougheed) vs. 39 (all times from Translink). That would be identical to the current structure of the Canada Line (25 to Richmond, 26 to Airport). Only difference is that Canada Line alternates on the spurs from Waterfront, whereas I couldn't see them doing that for KG/Lougheed.

On another note, very impressed with the traffic generated by the Airport line. Very cool to see lunch/afternoon time, YVR bound train filled with a lot of travellers. And Sunday afternoon? Lotsa people on the YVR platform heading home, or downtown...very nice.

[SFUVancouver]

You don't see this every day; an articulated trolley being towed back to the yard.

Taken by SFUVancouver, October 20th, 2010.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by CLC

may I know when did it reach 60000 per day? I rode M-Line regularly since its first week of service (Sep 2002) till 2005 and observed how its ridership gained. I can believe if 60000 was a figure around 2005, but not at the start.

Yes, you're right - it was 2005 (I had thought it was 2003) - see page 7 here:

http://www.llbc.leg.bc.ca/public/pubdocs/bcdocs/376208/review_millenniumline.pdf

[twoNeurons]

Why not terminate the M-Line on the South track and run EG lines on the Middle and North(New) track?

========= ( EG ) <<===
========= ( EG ) ===>>
   P L A T F O R M
========= ( ML ) <==>

[TransitFreak]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Why not terminate the M-Line on the South track and run EG lines on the Middle and North(New) track?

========= ( EG ) <<===
========= ( EG ) ===>>
   P L A T F O R M
========= ( ML ) <==>

If we're to utilize all 3 platforms, I would prefer this actually. Only this is I believe there isn't a direct switch for the ML train to go to the south track. It currently transitions to the 'middle track' en route to the station. There is a switch just after reaching the 'middle track' that brings you back to the south track, but that would be a real weird manuveure, to go away, then back. I also think the placement of the switches means just as the train turns into the middle track, it has to immediately turn left, in essence doing a 'U' - I don't think it can handle that. Easiest thing to do would be to build a direct switch to the south track (if there's room there).

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Why not terminate the M-Line on the South track and run EG lines on the Middle and North(New) track?

========= ( EG ) <<===
========= ( EG ) ===>>
   P L A T F O R M
========= ( ML ) <==>

I thought that was the plan, except it was going to be:

========= ( EG ) ===>>
========= ( EG ) <<===
   P L A T F O R M
========= ( ML ) <==>

That way, you have AM cross platform transfers that cover:
-people coming from the Expo line and ML going to SFU
-people coming from [new] EG going to ML and Expo line.

I think those would be the majority of transfers in the morning, and providing easy morning transfers would be most appreciated by people. I don't know about you guys, but I was always more enthusiastic on my way home.

While going ML or Expo to EG (to Coquitlam) is not covered cross platform in the AM, it would be the minority of transfers, and they get cross platform in the PM.

WRT to 2 car trains on the EG, I sort of like the idea. It would increase frequency, which shortens people's travel times, making the service more attractive. As it is, the frequency on the Millennium line is determined by frequency on the Expo line. In the peak periods, when the Millennium line could use more trains, it can't because more trains can't fit into the system because of the congestion on the trunk line. As it is, trains coming out of Surrey sometimes have to wait before entering into Columbia because an ML trains is a bit behind Schedule.

By having VCC <-> Douglas independent of the Expo line, you can have whatever frequency you want, which, with 2 car trains can be much higher and offer the same capacity. As ridership grows, more trains and/or longer trains can be added, without affecting the frequency on Expo Line (and vice versa). As well, with shorter trains arriving at Commercial, there will be less of a surge of passengers arriving all at once for B lines or transfer to Expo. A more gradual flow will ease the strain on the platform at Broadway.