[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by beyeas

Definitely. I was shocked today when I heard that on the radio.

I agree. Now I'm not sure that I have all the details on what they are asking (heck, aside from the radio report, I have NO details), but one of the things that I had heard and was advocating is that the tax revenue will offset HRM's portion of the lease costs. Seems like messages are changing already.

[someone123]

The way this process works is that every party asks for whatever they think the others will give. Rank wants tons of government money and the province wants the HRM to pay for as much as possible. The HRM will need to push back a little in order to get a fair deal.

The tax issue mostly sounds like accounting to me. The overall cost can be the same whether or not Rank pays taxes depending on the operating fees and upfront cost. What's important is simply that the full costs are taken into account.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

For once (in terms of Regional Council); I agree with you fully fenwick. Regional Council should be given full thumbs up on how they approached it and the fact the deal is wrong.

There is no doubt in my mind that the resounding majority of council support the project and believe it's good - the deal is wrong and the fact the province wants them to buy the old centre AND exempt the new one from property taxes.

Personally, if I had been on council I wouldn't have even put a motion to evaluate the proposal cost - I would've jumped in with a motion to abandon the project. I guess it's probably best that staff review it though - but I'm not impressed. I now have a total lack of trust to this developer; I think he's basically trying to get a building for nothing. I can understand the NS/HRM governments contributing for the convention centre component - but not the whole building and where does he get off not paying taxes?!

It wasn't the developer asking for a tax exemption, it was the province. A couple of the councillors felt that the NDP government was purposely trying to make the HRM council look like the bad guys by offering a deal that they couldn't accept. I don't know where you got this following idea from regarding Rank Inc. "I think he's basically trying to get a building for nothing." There was no mention of Rank Inc. asking for an exemption on the hotel and office sections, based on what the councillors stated, this was not requested. I copied the "ask" from the NDP (it is not from Rank Inc.) and posted below.

I guess that we should go back to not agreeing (your first sentence sounded promising but it sounds like deep-down you are an NDP supporter no matter what they do). I am not prepared to demonize Rank Inc., I am leaning towards demonizing the NPD provincial government. Rank Inc. just answered a Request For Proposals they didn't force this on the NDP or the previous Conservative government (which requested it).

PS: The request that the HRM take over the current WTCC didn't seem to be an unduly request by Mayor Kelly (who spoke to Premier Dexter). Councillor Hendsbee (shown live on Haligonia.ca) even stated that it had been talked about previously amongst the councillors. The purchase terms haven't been decided on - whether it be a land swap or some other deal (it might be a very good deal for the HRM). In my opinion, if the HRM ever wants to build a larger Metro Centre II then it would be good for them to own the current WTCC. A 15,000 seat new Metro Centre would fit there very nicely (refer to the image at the end of this post). In the meantime Mayor Kelly has spoken about putting more washrooms in the Metro Centre by using the space in the WTCC (I can't find a source but I read it several days ago).

(source: screen captive from Haligonia.ca live feed)



Below is an image that I posted previously of how the 15,000 Winnipeg MTS Centre (hockey arena) would fit on the Metro Centre/WTCC superblock.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I can understand the NS/HRM governments contributing for the convention centre component - but not the whole building and where does he get off not paying taxes?!

I don't want to start posting multiple times but if you look at the Provincial Request sheet (image posted previously) Rank Inc. is only asking for $47 million of the 3 levels of government (the actual construction cost, if you work it out, is $140 million = $119 million construction cost plus $21 million design cost, or $46.7 million x 3). This is significantly less than the shadow bid that was commissioned by the NDP. The person who presented the Provincial Request stated that the $59 million dollar amount for the provincial government and HRM, as reported by the media, was not the actual amount being requested.

PS: The HRM staff will present financial alternatives on November 9 2010 and make recommendations at that time. I will stop posting about the C word until then.

[fenwick16]

double post

[DigitalNinja]

I really wish that the governments could cooperate on major projects like this. Trying to rip eachother of is counterproductive, and I have no idea why people elect officials who do this... I am expressing my anti NDP ideas here, and I hate them, need to get them outa there!
Anyway my point of view, we need some business men/women to be elected to have some concept of how to properly negotiate.
I would love to see this center go through... But I'm not to sure it will anymore, I guess we will see come November.

[Buckey]

WE really need to get weaned off the government TIT in NS. Its a vicious cycle of gov money leading to little to no tax revenue leading to nothing. I think the entire EOI needs to be scrapped and started from scratch because as best as I can gather from the sketchy info RANK won the EOI as he had land to offer . Maybe his overall proposal was better than Hardman with a proposal or taking HRM land - was it better. Obviously HRM council was a solid BRICK wall maybe we need to take a step back.

This started to have some CWF aura with the last minute 1.2 MM tax concession request. HRM taxpayers are paying triple for this HRM FED and provincial. Lets make sure we do it right and if that means stepping back then lets make sure its the right deal. Just like TIger when a camera snaps in his backswing - sometimes it is better just to stop and step back and start the process again and smash it down the middle.

However I am happy with the current pushback. Congrats to HRM council. They were unanimous

[worldlyhaligonian]

http://www.biztradeshows.com/

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Buckey

WE really need to get weaned off the government TIT in NS. Its a vicious cycle of gov money leading to little to no tax revenue leading to nothing. I think the entire EOI needs to be scrapped and started from scratch because as best as I can gather from the sketchy info RANK won the EOI as he had land to offer . Maybe his overall proposal was better than Hardman with a proposal or taking HRM land - was it better. Obviously HRM council was a solid BRICK wall maybe we need to take a step back.

This started to have some CWF aura with the last minute 1.2 MM tax concession request. HRM taxpayers are paying triple for this HRM FED and provincial. Lets make sure we do it right and if that means stepping back then lets make sure its the right deal. Just like TIger when a camera snaps in his backswing - sometimes it is better just to stop and step back and start the process again and smash it down the middle.

However I am happy with the current pushback. Congrats to HRM council. They were unanimous

Whatever man, HRM is hardly getting a bad deal. I don't know why everybody thinks a project like this is soo sketchy, yet we are spending 20, 30, 40 million on other rinky dink projects with zero transparency... and even worse, no economic spinoffs or large federal/prov funding. We could have built a couple of convention centres by now with all the money wasted on other crap.

You have got to be kidding me. I'm not trying to get into the costs as digital said. The benefits far outweigh any other project built because of the magnitude of funding and the non-spinoff benefits.

I don't even think a middle eastern or asian investor would think about investing in Nova Scotia if they saw our current setup.

People that are against this know nothing about how international business works.

[worldlyhaligonian]

I'm done posting in this thread... I'll be laughing when some smaller city in Quebec or out west builds a trade centre and steals all of the business from us if we don't build it.

Let's not get in the way of ourselves.

[Empire]

#9 of The Provincial Request is interesting.

9. Province exempt from property tax on CC portion.

Why would the Province pay property tax on a building they are leasing?

[Buckey]

Sorrry worldly, I didnt use my Urban planning Major and am I ever glad I didnt. I have worked in business my whole life. Your comments on the benefits outweighing the costs is based on what? certainly not financials. This is a apathetic P3 deal. I am looking at this as if I am paying it. I am looking at this as if I am the only taxpayer and I'd rather open a resteraunt and an Airline than do this deal.

are not Nova Scotian taxpayers tired of making millionaires billionaires? I AM. We need a lot more transparency on full costs - the informaton to date is an embarrasement and good on HRM to push back. The deal sucks in so many ways. The jobs numbers have no basis and are misreported.

Rah rah rah lets build it and cross our fingers doesnt work for me. This is my money 5 times over and I will not stand back and let it get pissed away so my 5 taxes will increase.

This is the CWG coverup on costs and a whole lot more.

[fenwick16]

You seem to like extremes Buckey. I don't really agree with you. It is one thing to have concerns and raise them but your concerns are just too extremely against. Now you are just starting to sound like Bruce - its my money and I am not spending any ...

Likewise with Halifaxboyns - the two of you are distorting the facts and feeding off one another. There was no mention of a tax exemption being requested by Rank Inc. but you are stating that they want people to pay the whole cost. You are starting to soundly extremely anti-development and are trashing a developer unfairly. When the two of you start ranting then I switch to being 100% in favour of the Nova Centre no matter what ...

Neither of you sound reasonable; you are both ranting without giving sound reasons. I get the feeling that you are both just trying to fool people. The P3 rant is just annoying Buckey - if you are really in business then why do you keep ranting against a program (P3) that is meant to encourage private-public funding arrangements? Surely you can't be arguing that the government is much better at construction projects than private developers. Here is a forum for both of you where you can go and ignore the facts and everybody sounds like Buckey - very annoying - http://www.reality-check.ca/forum.php

[halifaxboyns]

Fenwick - i'm not distorting the facts; as I've said before and I will say again - the economics part is confusing me and I'm not getting it. I did read your post though and thanks for the clarification.

I'm not so upset if the tax exemption is the CC portion only. From the way it was sounding (I didn't watch the whole thing) it was the whole building - which I would definately say no too.

I don't really understand or grasp the payment plan or economics; I'm lucky I can balance my cheque book lol!

However; I don't think it's fair to bash someone (who has freely admitted he (me) doesn't understand all the financial details) for getting something wrong.
That's nice you want to be in favour of it no matter what if I'm wrong; I want to be in favour of this too. But I also want to make sure that HRM and Nova Scotia is getting a good deal. The last thing I want to hear for the next 10 years is all the people against this say 'I told you so'.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Fenwick - i'm not distorting the facts; as I've said before and I will say again - the economics part is confusing me and I'm not getting it. I did read your post though and thanks for the clarification.

I'm not so upset if the tax exemption is the CC portion only. From the way it was sounding (I didn't watch the whole thing) it was the whole building - which I would definately say no too.

I don't really understand or grasp the payment plan or economics; I'm lucky I can balance my cheque book lol!

However; I don't think it's fair to bash someone (who has freely admitted he (me) doesn't understand all the financial details) for getting something wrong.
That's nice you want to be in favour of it no matter what if I'm wrong; I want to be in favour of this too. But I also want to make sure that HRM and Nova Scotia is getting a good deal. The last thing I want to hear for the next 10 years is all the people against this say 'I told you so'.

Good points! I apologize for categorizing you as anti-development - you actually realize the importance of cost. People on this forum have stated that they are tired of anything financial - this is bizarre in my opinion, since this project might get thrown out because of such a lack of scrutiny by the public. The entire reason that this project appears to be so expensive is because the NDP is thinking of accepting a no-payment until 2014 deal at 6.9%. I am not the only one who has noticed the much higher than normal interest rate (Nova Scotia can get 30 year bonds at about 4.7%). Rank Inc. should not be blamed for this - this is entirely political on the part of the NDP (at least Premier Dexter has been honest and pointed out the high cost involved with taking such a deal as quoted in allnovascotia.com on Oct 14/2010, "Province vows to pay for Convention Centre - But How". Councillor Hendsbee mentioned it today at the HRM council meeting ).

These are the facts: 1) The cost of the convention Centre came in at $140 million which was much less than the NDP shadow bid
2) The annual operating cost came in significantly less than other convention centres which the shadow bid cost was based on.
(the source for points 1 and 2 are on page 22/36 of this report - https://conventioncentreinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/WTCC-II-Bid-Summary.pdf )

[Buckey]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

You seem to like extremes Buckey. I don't really agree with you. It is one thing to have concerns and raise them but your concerns are just too extremely against. Now you are just starting to sound like Bruce - its my money and I am not spending any ...

Likewise with Halifaxboyns - the two of you are distorting the facts and feeding off one another. There was no mention of a tax exemption being requested by Rank Inc. but you are stating that they want people to pay the whole cost. You are starting to soundly extremely anti-development and are trashing a developer unfairly. When the two of you start ranting then I switch to being 100% in favour of the Nova Centre no matter what ...

Neither of you sound reasonable; you are both ranting without giving sound reasons. I get the feeling that you are both just trying to fool people. The P3 rant is just annoying Buckey - if you are really in business then why do you keep ranting against a program (P3) that is meant to encourage private-public funding arrangements? Surely you can't be arguing that the government is much better at construction projects than private developers. Here is a forum for both of you where you can go and ignore the facts and everybody sounds like Buckey - very annoying - http://www.reality-check.ca/forum.php

ILl edit this. I have said all along I like development and want it and we need it and I love seeing it. Ill take the dirt and dust for the long term good. I was jumped on by folks here as being abeatnik antidevelopment whack job. NOt so. Just someone who doesnt like fuzzy math, surprises and a hype sales pitch. It appears as if 22 councillors wholeheartedly agreed with me. The BD comparisons are ridiculous and insulting. I am not "BUILD THIS AT ALL COST" and pay for it later. The whole dont pay a cent til 2014 doesnt work for me. LONG term is the way I look at everything. I didnt like the deal Monday and I hate it now. Start over back at the EOI stage. WE need to take a complete clean cut at this. Let me transparent and do it right.

EDIT so as not to clog up thread and after Fens post: If the proposal was an assignment I was marking I would simply mark on it - "D- please who your work" I see the final answer but need to see a lot more details as right now they are iffy

[fenwick16]

One post only - I live in Ontario and most people from Ontario probably would prefer Halifax over Ottawa. Even though Ottawa is a very interesting city and the Nation's Capital, it is no great treat for people from Toronto to go to a convention in Ottawa which is a city they have probably been to many times before. I think that it was CAO Anstey (spelling?) who stated Halifax was one of the most popular destinations for the Canadian Bar Association but they no longer come to the HRM because the current WTCC doesn't meet their requirements. Also mentioned was an Engineering Association (I am not sure which one) which will be passing over Halifax in the future because the HRM wasn't able to host their exhibits which is an important part of most conventions. (They will go to New Brunswick the next time that they come to Atlantic Canada).

Although you think that you are being impartial and that you are looking at things rationally, you have in fact adopted a very negative and defeatist attitude towards Halifax and Nova Scotia. I and many others feel strongly that Halifax will be very successful - this isn't wishful thinking as you seem to think; many people throughout Canada actually enjoy visiting the province of Nova Scotia.

[Jonovision]

I have not been following this thread much lately, just because it has been too much for me to read and it seems the same things are said over and over.

However, I did watch council yesterday afternoon and was very happy with their performance for the most part. I thought they were level headed and cool and asked good questions. I especially liked how some of them, including Sloane was asking Scott Ferguson to debunk some of the myths being used to fight against the new centre. ie that all centres are essentially a black box and it does not matter if it is underground or not, the only part that matters is the entrance, and that convention centre business in Canada is indeed doing quite well.

I do not like the ask from the province, but like some of the Councillors stated, it is only the first ask. Yes, it was not gone about the right way, but it is only the beginning of negotiations and not all is lost. I think if the two governments can work together that we will see this get built.

[halifaxboyns]

The HRM website now has a section on the convention centre presentation. The presentation they made is also available here.

[Keith P.]

Having had considerable experience dealing with the province -- and knowing the TIR staffer who made the presentation at the news conference last week -- I am not at all surprised by the provincial position. However, I expect that a deal will eventually get done. The province always starts with a ridiculous position and then caves. And while that particular staffer can be a difficult person to deal with sometimes due to arrogance, she is not the final authority in this.

One thing I do not know and heard nobody ask: does the existing WTCC pay property tax?