[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by gm_scott

Sort of unrelated to the current conversations, but related to the project itself. How will retail do here? I'm sort of worried it will fail. Scotia square is close but its only doing okay. Granville is a similar concept, but doesn't seem to do too well, but is limited by a dead end.

A lot of it depends on getting more people living in the downtown area.

As someone who's primarily a pedestrian, I really like the idea of a covered street. I've said before that I'd like to see the Granville Mall area covered as well... especially if IP gets built.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Let's get back to the construction details.

This is an old post by Jstaleness. I am impressed by how deep the excavation will be. The deepest part of the complex will be two levels of parking and there will be one level of the convention centre below the concrete floor in the image above. I wonder if this will set a record for the deepest excavation ever in the Halifax area?

Even though the convention space is u/g some of the attendees will have a great view if they stay in the hotel. Hopefully there will be a restaurant at the top so it can be the only restaurant with a view in HRM.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Empire

Even though the convention space is u/g some of the attendees will have a great view if they stay in the hotel. Hopefully there will be a restaurant at the top so it can be the only restaurant with a view in HRM.

Something along the line as what they had at the WTC in New York perhaps? Windows on the Harbour or something similar?

@Phalanx - I like the idea of Granville covered, but let's not do it like they did in Vegas for Freemont street.

[halifaxboyns]

I've read in this thread and some others concern about the office demand being soft in HRM and that the office component to this might cause issues.
Well, I wanted to post this to give perspective. I should note that this development is one block west of my place here in Calgary - I can see it very nicely from my balcony.

Major projects will raise downtown Calgary vacancy rate to 15%: Experts
By Mario Toneguzzi, Calgary Herald August 20, 2010

HeraldCALGARY - The completion of two major office projects by the end of next year - The Bow and Eighth Avenue Place - will drive the downtown office vacancy rate up to about 15.4 per cent, says a report by Barclay Street Real Estate Ltd.

The commercial real estate company's Second Quarter 2010 Office Space Review says the addition of three million square feet to the downtown office market inventory will not drive vacancy rates up to the degree that was initially thought. Some industry experts have said the vacancy rate could hit the 20 per cent range with the completion of those two buildings.

"While vacancy will increase as the new inventory enters the market, occupancy is also increasing and will continue to do so as economic recovery pushes on," said the report.

For the second consecutive quarter, the downtown office market experienced a decrease in vacancy, dropping from 12.4 per cent in the first quarter of the year to the 12.0 per cent in the second quarter.

The report says Eighth Avenue Place is slated for occupancy in mid 2011 and will bring just over one million square feet of inventory onto the market. About 15 floors, or 28 per cent of the building, have been leased to tenants including Direct Energy, Bonavista Energy and Burnet Duckworth & Palmer LLP.

"We expect Eighth Avenue Place will continue to be successful in leasing space as it fits the profile for space that is in demand," says Barclay Street.

The report says The Bow will add two million square feet of office space by the summer of 2011 and will be 100 per cent occupied by EnCana. It says the energy giant will move into the new tower in stages, vacating about 500,000 square feet in the third quarter of 2011, an additional 500,000 square feet in the fourth quarter, and the final square footage in the first quarter of 2012. EnCana currently has office space in several buildings in the downtown.

"Once EnCana vacates their current space, approximately 1.5 million square feet of sublease space will enter the market," says Barclay Street.

[email protected]
© Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald
Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/Major+projects+will+raise+downtown
+Calgary+vacancy+rate+Experts/3422064/story.html#ixzz12kUJhoOf

So you think HRM has it bad...the Bow is just one office tower. There is the 9th Avenue Place to finish and Jamieson Place just opened!

[musicman]

It is always best if convention space is underground or a windowless room. It is costly to cover all those windows over and over when doing multimedia presentations. The best idea is to have the convention space windowless and have a nice reception room with a view..

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by musicman

It is always best if convention space is underground or a windowless room. It is costly to cover all those windows over and over when doing multimedia presentations. The best idea is to have the convention space windowless and have a nice reception room with a view..

Very good point. I don't see why the space wouldn't be big enough for small arts presentations as well.

[Buckey]

Council is live online now at Haligonia.ca.

EDIT - OMG listening to that is hard on the head. I do not even know what they are arguing about now

EDIT to below post Fenwick My audio is fine. Other than the content LOL

[fenwick16]

I can hear about 40% - it is very disappointing that the the audio is so broken up.

EDITED: They fixed it somehow - now I can hear about 100%.

[halifaxboyns]

The twitter feed showed that they want taxes exempted for 25 years - Ramia is really pushing for everything he can get. I think they should not do that.

[David1gray]

Convention centre debate begins

Halifax municipal politicians have started discussing the pros and cons of a new convention centre.

Council started the process Tuesday by discussing a request by developer Joe Ramia. After a 30-minute debate, however, council voted against holding a private session to get legal advice, so Ramia's presentation was postponed.

Council will hear from municipal staff, representatives from the Greater Halifax Partnership and officials from Trade Centre Ltd., which oversees the current convention centre.

The convention centre would be built on the former Halifax Herald Ltd. site. It's expected to cost $159 million to build, with a $2.9 million annual cost for facility maintenance and upgrades.

The Nova Scotia government says it will help pay for it if the Halifax Regional Municipality and federal government contribute about $57 million each.

Mayor Peter Kelly said a decision on funding is two or three weeks away.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2010/10/19/ns-halifax-council-convention.html

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

The twitter feed showed that they want taxes exempted for 25 years - Ramia is really pushing for everything he can get. I think they should not do that.

Is that for the entire complex or just the convention centre? If it is just the convention centre then the annual operating charges should be reduced to reflect that there are no property tax. (usually with industrial/commercial leases the property taxes and maintenance are paid by the tenant as an additional annual charge on top of the actual square footage charge).

Whether Rank Inc. pays tax on the convention centre or not, is more or less just accounting, just as long as the Trade Centre Ltd. is not paying for the annual property tax then it might be ok for the HRM to exempt the convention centre portion. Essentially the HRM and Province will be paying it on one hand and then taking it back again. I agree that the hotel and office component should pay property tax.

How do other province/HRM run corporations such as the Metro Centre handle property tax - are they exempt?

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Is that for the entire complex or just the convention centre? If it is just the convention centre then the annual operating charges should be reduced to reflect that there are no property tax. (usually with industrial/commercial leases the property taxes and maintenance are paid by the tenant as an additional annual charge on top of the actual square footage charge).

Whether Rank Inc. pays tax on the convention centre or not, is more or less just accounting, just as long as the Trade Centre Ltd. is not paying for the annual property tax then it might be ok for the HRM to exempt the convention centre portion. Essentially the HRM and Province will be paying it on one hand and then taking it back again. I agree that the hotel and office component should pay property tax.

How do other province/HRM run corporations such as the Metro Centre handle property tax - are they exempt?

I only just tuned in; so I take the twitter being literal for the whole building. I am not sure what they meant.

The debate seems to be going well - they are asking good questions.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

The twitter feed showed that they want taxes exempted for 25 years - Ramia is really pushing for everything he can get. I think they should not do that.

If the facility was owned by HRM/province i could maybe live with that. But since the centre is not, then they should pay taxes just like everyone else.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by sdm

If the facility was owned by HRM/province i could maybe live with that. But since the centre is not, then they should pay taxes just like everyone else.

I agree fully.
They should pay taxes, period, full stop.

[halifaxboyns]

The issue of underground convention spaces is coming up a lot.
Sloane is asking about it - but she's asking it in a good way.

She's pointing out the issue of the meeting rooms being underground is irrelevant - because you need the meeting rooms to be dark spaces in order to use visual equipment. Very interesting question...

She's really focusing on better improvements to the street along Argyle and asking about the spin off jobs (additional convention staff). I wonder if may be she has changed her position?

Watts of course isn't on board - you can tell by her body language and attitude.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I agree fully.
They should pay taxes, period, full stop.

Well thats the deal in front of council and province, no taxes on the centre.

[Buckey]

with the Streach Proposal that echos Kelly and even Utech's thoughts that they don't like the deal and the way Council has been backed into a corner.

I think This echos my thoughts. I like the concept but I do not like the deal as it is structured right now nothwithstanding the new tax curve ball.

So if the proposal to come back Nov 9th with coptions and include the attorney AG Im all good.

It would appear as if location sight lines and underground are all non or minor issues

MOTION PASSED TO have staff crucnh the numbers and come back with options and recos. Councillors ready to strangle the province. expect this to get dirty

[fenwick16]

Based on the HRM Council Meeting of Oct 19/2010 shown on Haligonia.ca

The HRM councillors deserve much more credit than many people give them. I agree with basically all of their opinions. Many seem to support the convention centre but not the deal from the province (I took a screen shot of the "ask" which I can post later).

The province will get their portion of HST plus increased provincial personal income tax from increases in jobs, so they have much more to gain from the CC than the HRM which mainly just gets property tax - and the province (not Rank Inc.) wants a property tax exemption from the HRM.

Like many councillors stated, the HRM needs to get a better deal and as Councillor Hendsbee stated they should be able to get better than a 6.9% interest rate. He also stated that lump sum payments might be better than a long term capital lease. PS: My personal viewpoint (anyone who doesn't like financial details should avoid this section) - If the province borrows the money at a their 30 years bond rate of 4.7% and pays as construction proceeds then they will save tens of millions of dollars over the length of the lease (then the HRM could pay the annual repayment cost at a rate of 4.7% to the province or pay it out of the HRM's capital fund over 3 - 4 years of construction). The only reason for the province to accept the Rank Inc.'s higher interest rates is so that the construction payments won't show up on the provincial financial books and thus show up as an increase in debt - not a good reason to accept a higher interest rate, in my opinion!

to the HRM councillors and boo to the NDP for the deal that they offered to the municipality.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I agree fully.
They should pay taxes, period, full stop.

Definitely. I was shocked today when I heard that on the radio.

[halifaxboyns]

For once (in terms of Regional Council); I agree with you fully fenwick. Regional Council should be given full thumbs up on how they approached it and the fact the deal is wrong.

There is no doubt in my mind that the resounding majority of council support the project and believe it's good - the deal is wrong and the fact the province wants them to buy the old centre AND exempt the new one from property taxes.

Personally, if I had been on council I wouldn't have even put a motion to evaluate the proposal cost - I would've jumped in with a motion to abandon the project. I guess it's probably best that staff review it though - but I'm not impressed. I now have a total lack of trust to this developer; I think he's basically trying to get a building for nothing. I can understand the NS/HRM governments contributing for the convention centre component - but not the whole building and where does he get off not paying taxes?!