Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Welkin

Here is a link to a video on YouTube of the Stereophonics concert in Cardiff City Stadium. It has some great shots of the concert crowd. It looks like they packed in 30,000+. This stadium looks like a good concert venue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnfH8KminEI&feature=related

Thanks for the link - I hadn't thought of checking YouTube. I found another one that focuses on the seating areas. It appears to having folding chairs throughout. Looks like a great stadium for £48 million. I would like to see something similar to this in the Halifax area. I think that just the stadium alone might increase the attendance by a few thousand people to each large event (because of the comfort and wow factors). Since I will likely never go to Cardiff, could you describe the concourses Welkin - are the concourses large? do the concourses have one or two levels? are there sufficient washrooms? Here is another YouTube video link (I also embedded it below): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP9vdon6mrU&feature=related :

• Video Link

[Welkin]

Fenwick- the concourses at the three single tier sides are quite large, roomy, well decorated and tall. The grandstand is several levels (stairs and elevators get you to the various levels) and is quite well appointed inside. Lots of polished wood and chrome. It has a beautiful hospitality bar. There were plenty of washrooms (are there ever enough for the women) and food stations inside. This is a very nice stadium inside.

[worldlyhaligonian]

I hate looking at this thread because with everything thats going on (library, convention centre, etc) I know we aren't getting a stadium unless somebody private does it.

How much would you guys project it would cost to build a stadium that would be sufficient, but not crazy expensive? Could a developer prelease a stadium for different food retail, naming of the stadium, advertising?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I hate looking at this thread because with everything thats going on (library, convention centre, etc) I know we aren't getting a stadium unless somebody private does it.

How much would you guys project it would cost to build a stadium that would be sufficient, but not crazy expensive? Could a developer prelease a stadium for different food retail, naming of the stadium, advertising?

I understand your feeling. It would help if Halifax could host a sporting event such as one host city of the 2015 FIFA World Woman's Cup. Based on what I have read, the federal government is more willing to support amateur facilities than facilities mainly used by professional teams. So Halifax might be more apt to get financing prior to getting a pro team than after (strange as that might sound).

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Welkin

Fenwick- the concourses at the three single tier sides are quite large, roomy, well decorated and tall. The grandstand is several levels (stairs and elevators get you to the various levels) and is quite well appointed inside. Lots of polished wood and chrome. It has a beautiful hospitality bar. There were plenty of washrooms (are there ever enough for the women) and food stations inside. This is a very nice stadium inside.

Do you think that it could be built so that the grandstands were completed afterward? In other words, just the single tiers on all four sides with sufficient washrooms. Then if necessary the grandstand(s) could be completed on one side or even two sides with additional levels as required? (for example, in order to support a CFL team). Please ignore this question, I found the answer below

There are several good construction images at this link - http://www.cardiffcity-mad.co.uk/news/tm..._cardiff_city_stadium_395617/index.shtml . It looks like it would be possible to add a second tier at a later time all around the stadium. The construction of a stadium like this in the Halifax area would attract crowds just to watch it being built.

PS: I found this article - http://www.walesonline.co.uk/footballnat...nsion-plan-for-bluebirds-91466-27146264/ . Based on this story the stadium could be quite easily expanded with a second tier all around to increase it by 8,000 seats to 35,000 for only £6 million. I am convinced that this would be the perfect stadium for Halifax. By also building the stadium with the first row 8 feet above field level then an extra 4000 - 5000 temporary seats could be added at field level for special events such as a Grey Cup. Maybe the extra seats would never be needed, but it is good to know that expansion would be possible with such a stadium.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

Fenwick
Try to use the quarried area closest to BayersLake at Lacewood.....the other excavated area could become parking or developed as hotel/motel/restuarants....etc etc...with road access directly off the 102 plus roadways in from Bayers Lk and the Keanrey Lk Rd....I think it offers entrances form several direction which would great....

The site would be not the most likeable from a scenic view point....for that I would swing to Shannon or the Mainland Commons looking out over the peninsula.

ATL Stadium - I downloaded a copy of a 3D model of the Cardiff City Stadium (drawn by dizzyHARSH and posted at the Google 3D Warehouse) which I pasted near the 102 and Kearney Lake Road. Is this the area you were thinking of?

PS: I just read your post again - maybe you were thinking about a site at Lacewood and the 102? I think that area next to the Bayers Lake shopping area would be better. The Mainland Commons would be more scenic but wouldn't have easy access to the amenities in the Bayers Lake shopping area.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I hate looking at this thread because with everything thats going on (library, convention centre, etc) I know we aren't getting a stadium unless somebody private does it.

How much would you guys project it would cost to build a stadium that would be sufficient, but not crazy expensive? Could a developer prelease a stadium for different food retail, naming of the stadium, advertising?

The Cardiff City Stadium was built recently for £48 million dollars - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_City_Stadium (about $77 million Canadian dollars). But that was with a multilevel grandstand on one side that has luxury boxes and meeting rooms. Based on the article that I read ( http://www.walesonline.co.uk/footballnat...nsion-plan-for-bluebirds-91466-27146264/ ), it was designed so that it can be easily expanded with additional tiers all around. So to keep the cost down, the HRM could just build the basic design with a single tier all around. However it needs to be longer by at least 60 feet and slightly wider for Canadian football - however this would mean a fewer number of seating rows for the same capacity (so the longer length versus lower number of rows might be a trade-off). The Cardiff City Stadium was built for rugby instead of soccer so the field might be close in size to a Canadian football field (I can get dimensions of a Google map and 3D model later).

PS: Based on this information ( http://www.richmondrugby.net/pitch.goal_size.html ), a rugby field is very similar in size to Canadian football - maybe that is where the Canadian football field dimensions originated from (rugby).

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I hate looking at this thread because with everything thats going on (library, convention centre, etc) I know we aren't getting a stadium unless somebody private does it.

How much would you guys project it would cost to build a stadium that would be sufficient, but not crazy expensive? Could a developer prelease a stadium for different food retail, naming of the stadium, advertising?

What, Halifax can't work on more than two projects at one time? Regina is working on a massive new downtown library and a $460 million football stadium. That has to be over $550 million worth of civic projects on the drawing board. Halifax does not have to build and pay for a new library, a convention center and a football stadium all in one year, but they should get these projects on the drawing board and start planning out the design and funding. Halifax should start now so that in three years the stadium project might be in the final stages of design and ready to build. I don't think anyone here would complain if Halifax doesn't get their $35 million, 15,000 seat starter stadium until 2014 or 2015. They can't delay moving on this project just because there are other projects also on the drawing board. That is just an excuse. HRM should be able to chew gum and walk at the same time.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Welkin

What, Halifax can't work on more than two projects at one time? Regina is working on a massive new downtown library and a $460 million football stadium. That has to be over $550 million worth of civic projects on the drawing board. Halifax does not have to build and pay for a new library, a convention center and a football stadium all in one year, but they should get these projects on the drawing board and start planning out the design and funding. Halifax should start now so that in three years the stadium project might be in the final stages of design and ready to build. I don't think anyone here would complain if Halifax doesn't get their $35 million, 15,000 seat starter stadium until 2014 or 2015. They can't delay moving on this project just because there are other projects also on the drawing board. That is just an excuse. HRM should be able to chew gum and walk at the same time.

I agree completely. The HRM wouldn't even have to pay for the design - they could set up a building fund that people could contribute to. The money raised could then be used for designing a stadium and possibly even purchasing land. If the HRM has a design and land purchased then if a sporting event such as the FIFA World Women's Cup comes along then they will be in a good position to get federal funding for the stadium.

Now that I have seen the Cardiff City Stadium and how it has been designed to be easily expanded, I can see how advantageous such a detailed design is (but yet a relatively simple design). With such a design, Halifax can have an affordable stadium in the near future which can become a major stadium in the more distant future if required. By taking such a strategy, Halifax won't be stuck with a white elephant - it will have the flexibility to increase the size of stadium only if such expansion is required.

[Keith P.]

If you want to see the epitome of a modern new stadium, turn on Sportnet right now and take a look at Minneapolis' Target Field. It is a baseball stadium and far more expesive than we need, but the design is just gorgeous -- modern, but with a nice use of local sandstone accents and a cool look, fit right into the downtown.

[Welkin]

I just read on the Leader-Post site that Regina expects private enterprise to chip in $70 million of their $460+ million dollar stadium. $50 million in naming rights and major sponsorships, $10 million in "recognition opportunities" (whatever those are) and $10 million in community donations. If Halifax built a great 25,000 seat stadium, I am sure we could get at least half that from the private sector if it meant we would get a CFL team. I think naming rights alone should be worth $25-$30 million over the next 10-15 years. If we could get the private sector to commit $30-$40 million, we could get this thing moving. Keep in mind, they don't have to pay it upfront. Naming rights and major sponsorships are usually multi-year advertising contracts that would be paid over several years to reduce the stadiums annual cost. The point is, on a $80-$100 million dollar stadium, HRM is really looking at funding only $50-$60 million over the next 20 years. That's only $4.8 million per year ($60 million at 5% over 20 years). There are many ways to raise that amount of funds (a hotel tax or stadium ticket tax are just some of the ways cities pay for stadiums) without having to raise property taxes. If this city wants to build a stadium, it is a doable proposition. If they don't, it doesn't matter how feasible is the project.

http://www.leaderpost.com/Private+sector...Regina+stadium+report/3638600/story.html

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Welkin

I just read on the Leader-Post site that Regina expects private enterprise to chip in $70 million of their $460+ million dollar stadium. $50 million in naming rights and major sponsorships, $10 million in "recognition opportunities" (whatever those are) and $10 million in community donations. If Halifax built a great 25,000 seat stadium, I am sure we could get at least half that from the private sector if it meant we would get a CFL team. I think naming rights alone should be worth $25-$30 million over the next 10-15 years. If we could get the private sector to commit $30-$40 million, we could get this thing moving. Keep in mind, they don't have to pay it upfront. Naming rights and major sponsorships are usually multi-year advertising contracts that would be paid over several years to reduce the stadiums annual cost. The point is, on a $80-$100 million dollar stadium, HRM is really looking at funding only $50-$60 million over the next 20 years. That's only $4.8 million per year ($60 million at 5% over 20 years). There are many ways to raise that amount of funds (a hotel tax or stadium ticket tax are just some of the ways cities pay for stadiums) without having to raise property taxes. If this city wants to build a stadium, it is a doable proposition. If they don't, it doesn't matter how feasible is the project.

http://www.leaderpost.com/Private+sector...Regina+stadium+report/3638600/story.html

Recognition opportunities is a fancy way of saying advertising - probably pattison or some other advertising group; that will then sub-lease the space out to companies. So I suspect you'll see a few digital billboards crop up in the parking lot with advertisements changing every 6 seconds, flashing ad's to people on the road - or inside the stadium on the score board, bathrooms, or hallways. It's no different than transit doing the same thing and you would be amazed how much it brings in. Those bus shelter ad's usually rake in the dough for most cities and they don't usually have to pay to repair damage to the shelter (the ad company does). Calgary Transit's budget get's $20 million a year just from advertising revenue and they expect that to grow.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Welkin

What, Halifax can't work on more than two projects at one time? Regina is working on a massive new downtown library and a $460 million football stadium. That has to be over $550 million worth of civic projects on the drawing board. Halifax does not have to build and pay for a new library, a convention center and a football stadium all in one year, but they should get these projects on the drawing board and start planning out the design and funding. Halifax should start now so that in three years the stadium project might be in the final stages of design and ready to build. I don't think anyone here would complain if Halifax doesn't get their $35 million, 15,000 seat starter stadium until 2014 or 2015. They can't delay moving on this project just because there are other projects also on the drawing board. That is just an excuse. HRM should be able to chew gum and walk at the same time.

I agree with you in theory.

The problem is the reality of our situation. The obstructionists combined with weak leadership and a misinformed, easily swayed public, has spelt disaster for ANY kind of project. There are people that are simply against everything.

Alot of people that are posting comments are saying things about "their tax dollars" when the reality is that if they are having such a hard time economically, its not their taxes (or how they are being allocated) that is the problem. Its a super tough sell in Halifax because of all of the crazies, and their opinions spill over to the average joe (even if they are polar opposites).

In SK there is potash, uranium and other resources coming online... as well as people that are loyal to a pre-existing team and more companies that seem to care about the people in the province.

We have enough big companies (some of the biggest in Canada) HQ'd out here, but they like their money in their pocket.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Also, anybody that is trying to advance our city/province is viewed as some sort of elite and evil. Hell, I've seen negative comments about WIND FARMS... are you freaking kidding me.

The worst part is... everybody making arguments has very little to no acumen to backup their supposed correct viewpoints.

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

I couldn't disagree more. IMO a $20 million stadium is an excellent first step.



Stage 1: For CIS football, CFL exhibitions, FIFA soccer tournaments
Stage 2: For the above plus concerts and Women's World Cup soccer
Stage 3: For the above and a CFL franchise

The Stage 3 stadium could accommodate every sporting event Halifax could hope to host except the Grey Cup.

I agree with the idea of building a stadium in stages, but I'm sure a CFL team would need more than 10000 seats between the goallines.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Also, anybody that is trying to advance our city/province is viewed as some sort of elite and evil. Hell, I've seen negative comments about WIND FARMS... are you freaking kidding me.

The worst part is... everybody making arguments has very little to no acumen to backup their supposed correct viewpoints.

Believe me; it's not just in Halifax.
I'd repeat some of the things I've been called as a planner out here in Calgary; but I'm sure the forum monitors would go crazy. That's why many of us planners enjoy a good drink now and then...

...and now, back to my wine from Kelowna!

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

ATL Stadium - I downloaded a copy of a 3D model of the Cardiff City Stadium (drawn by dizzyHARSH and posted at the Google 3D Warehouse) which I pasted near the 102 and Kearney Lake Road. Is this the area you were thinking of?

PS: I just read your post again - maybe you were thinking about a site at Lacewood and the 102? I think that area next to the Bayers Lake shopping area would be better. The Mainland Commons would be more scenic but wouldn't have easy access to the amenities in the Bayers Lake shopping area.

Fenwick
Yeah thats the site but the stadium placed there looks so small.....is the scale correct? Also that property runs along the highway parallel and could be placed closer to Bayers lake or where you have it.....
The site shows some potential for open space for parking or development of on site services like restaurants or hotels.....
Mainland commons would be better for visual purposes.....and the shannon site....same..

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

That is a big concern. Is the Halifax Mainland Commons really not a possibility as some people indicate? After all, the HRM cleared several acres for the new Canada Winter Games facility. On the Halifax side, that would be the most scenic area. On the Dartmouth side, I think that Commodore Drive/John Savage Drive.

Fenwick
Everything is doable.....but the cost of acquisition could be negative...
Mainland Commons is under development now for the 2011 Canada Winter Games....I'm not sure what land is currently left undeveloped or still in HRM/Provincial ownership.....its is always difficult to wrestle lands away from private hands at the locations like that.....they basically want the residential rate for it.....they could make as selling for condos...
So if the land is still there I would say its still agood site....

[Welkin]

If Halifax was to build a new stadium and attract a CFL team, does anyone know how much a CFL team normally pays in rent to use the stadium? I am sure there are a lot of factors involved such as who gets parking fees, concessions, and etc., but I was just wondering, because I understand that in some CFL cities, (Hamilton for example), the CFL team pays $0 in stadium rental. I am sure that this is just one part of the financial analysis that HRM must be considering. The same thing for concert promoters. What does it cost to rent a 25,000 seat stadium to host a concert? Is it even viable for a concert promoter?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

Fenwick
Yeah thats the site but the stadium placed there looks so small.....is the scale correct? Also that property runs along the highway parallel and could be placed closer to Bayers lake or where you have it.....
The site shows some potential for open space for parking or development of on site services like restaurants or hotels.....
Mainland commons would be better for visual purposes.....and the shannon site....same..

I checked the scale and it appears to be correct. For comparison, the adjacent small lake/pond (directly next to the model on the right) is approximately 380 feet by 200 feet. The stadium is the Cardiff City Stadium (drawn by dizzyHARSH) - the stadium model dimensions are equivalent to 630 feet by 510 feet which is good enough for rugby and soccer. For Canadian football, it would have to be lengthened by about 70 feet to about 700 feet long (about 10% longer). The width would be good for Canadian football as it is.

PS: You could also compare the scale with the highway on-ramps.