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  #1541  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2010, 8:48 PM
brettinhalifax brettinhalifax is offline
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  #1542  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2010, 8:55 PM
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I guess "pointless" was the wrong word but it is not immediately going to result in a CFL team, and I don't think it's a necessary step in Halifax.

If a $20M stadium is on the radar then a $60-80M stadium can be as well.
     
     
  #1543  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2010, 8:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brettinhalifax View Post
I couldn't disagree more. IMO a $20 million stadium is an excellent first step.



Stage 1: For CIS football, CFL exhibitions, FIFA soccer tournaments
Stage 2: For the above plus concerts and Women's World Cup soccer
Stage 3: For the above and a CFL franchise

The Stage 3 stadium could accommodate every sporting event Halifax could hope to host except the Grey Cup.
IMO, I think what you represent as stage 3 should be stage 1. We need to start at CFL size to land a team asap. 10,000 seats doesnt land squat. If were going to do it, we might as well do it right from the get go. It's not like it would be unaffordable.

20 million to me just sounds like selling short when the city can afford better.
     
     
  #1544  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2010, 9:21 PM
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  #1545  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2010, 9:44 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by brettinhalifax View Post
And I think a 3 stage stadium project will be much easier to sell to the public.
When it come to selling the stadium, I agree that taking a fiscally responsible attitude is important. However, the 60% of residents in favour of a stadium might not get excited about such a project. Especially when you state "The Stage 3 stadium could accommodate every sporting event Halifax could hope to host except the Grey Cup." The people in favour of a stadium might just get bored by such an argument. Many people have bigger dreams for Halifax than this.

It seems like you are spending too much time thinking of ways to please the people against a stadium and very little time thinking about the majority who are in favour. For example, I am not the only person who would like some protection from the rain but you categorically state that the stadium doesn't need a roof over the seats. I see little logic in this reasoning other than I must except your opinion or you get annoyed.

The $30 million dollar deficit has already been eliminated.
     
     
  #1546  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2010, 10:28 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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I don't think it's unreasonable for Brett to propose what he has. It's logical to be asking questions about what we want versus what we can afford. Deficits can be eliminated, just as easily created - but no one can look into the future and know what's going to happen.

The bigger question that needs to be thought about is what are we building the stadium for? What is the point? Is the point to attract smaller events like soccer or whatever? Is it to attract a CFL team?

To me, the sense I get is for the CFL - but Brett rightly points out that even if HRM builds a stadium; that may not guarentee anything. What happens if we build it; but then for some reason we don't get it? Let me be clear, I'm totally in favour of a stadium - but a good plan can deal with the devils advocate issues and the what if's.

Plus, as someone pointed out in another thread - interest rates aren't going to remain low forever. So even if we did go for tilt into it and built a stadium for a CFL franchise, the cost to pay the debt on that will go up over time.

Perhaps the way things start off is to not get a full franchise but games like what Moncton has done - a few exhibition games and then see how well we go forward? Get an initial stadium in the 15,000 seats built and see how the games sell? If they do incredible sales - then propose and expansion and then proceed to build it to try to get the franchise?

The DC/Burnside location does present the ability to start with a clean slate and grow from there with good road network access and as pointed out both Burnside and DC have hotels and restaurants (and the ability to build more). Let's face it, the geography of HRM being what it is - we'll never get a perfect site. So we have to accept that and find a reasonable site that has more pro's than con's. The transportation issues can be resolved through various methods of adding special routes, providing parking and upgrading roads/signals.
     
     
  #1547  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2010, 11:30 PM
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Stage 1: Build a stadium for a non-existent CFL franchise, after all since HRM is 3x bigger than Moncton, we need a stadium 3x bigger than theirs.
Nobody said this. Adding your own spin to what other people say does not help your argument and makes you look like a jerk.

If the goal is to have a CFL team then that can be negotiated as the stadium funding is secured. A team can be developed before a stadium even exists - this has happened in the past in Halifax. Similarly, a team can serve as a way to get federal support for funding. All of this is very standard.

Deficits are not particularly meaningful when it comes to deciding whether or not to build a stadium. The HRM has an operating budget of approximately $730M and a capital budget of around $160M. The total budget is around $900M. This means that in 2010-2011 the city is building the equivalent of many stadiums. The money is there if a stadium is a priority - in the past, cat bylaws and four ice hockey rinks have been priorities so the stadium has not been a serious project. A $20-30M deficit does not imply by any means that the city cannot afford to build anything.

Moncton by contrast has a budget in the $100-200M range (though there are multiple municipalities). This is why a $20M expense in Moncton is equivalent to a much larger expense in Halifax. The capacity to pay for new infrastructure there is much lower because the tax base is smaller.
     
     
  #1548  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2010, 3:34 AM
brettinhalifax brettinhalifax is offline
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  #1549  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2010, 4:02 AM
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  #1550  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2010, 5:13 AM
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How come we don't already have Eastlink, Sobeys, McCain, RIM, Irving, Tim Horton's, Emera, etc, etc on board for this stadium?

They talk about all these HQs in Sask, but Potash is only one company... we have some multinationals headquarted right here!
     
     
  #1551  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2010, 1:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brettinhalifax View Post
fenwick16, you don't have to accept my opinion. You don't even have to read my posts. I am well aware that my ideas for a stadium won't satisfy everyone, and it has compromises. But the same can be said about your stadium plan, it has compromises and it doesn't satisfy everyone either. But that hasn't stopped you from advocating your position.
The stadium design will need to satisfy most of the people who are in favour of a stadium. If your plan is for a stadium of 26,000 people then a stadium that will get people excited is the Cardiff City Stadium - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_City_Stadium . Once stretched out for Canadian football then it would be large enough for about 29,000 (but it can always have fewer seats than this). It is difficult for me to argue that more than this is required since it might not be. However, it certainly would be good to have it designed so that if Halifax does obtain a CFL team that it could hold a Grey Cup. You seem to have turned against an InfoCision style stadium even though you suggested it many months ago. Why is that style no longer suitable?

This may seem like a minor point, but for FIFA International World Cups, 8.5 meters are required along the sideline foul areas and 10 meters in back of the goals.

Last edited by fenwick16; Oct 6, 2010 at 12:07 AM.
     
     
  #1552  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 11:56 AM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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Same!

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Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=44.6750...0Lake%20Rd%2C%20Halifax%2C%20NS%2C%20B3M
There are two quarries on this map - are you thinking of the top one? The lower one certainly looks like a deep pit. The top one loks like it is an active quarry though, so who knows how deep they will go.

I think this area would be better since there would be some parking available right next to it and I think that there is a Lacewood Bus terminal - http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=44.6534...0Lake%20Rd%2C%20Halifax%2C%20NS%2C%20B3M
Fenwick
These two areas are both the same parcel of land.......the quarry follows a seam of the rock. So. it runs along the 102 between Kearney Lake Rd. and Lacewood (BayersLake Shopping area). So it could road access at each end....
     
     
  #1553  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 12:31 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Fenwick
These two areas are both the same parcel of land.......the quarry follows a seam of the rock. So. it runs along the 102 between Kearney Lake Rd. and Lacewood (BayersLake Shopping area). So it could road access at each end....
Could you send a link to the exact area that you are thinking of? Later tonight I could put a stadium on one of those locations.
     
     
  #1554  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 1:00 PM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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Mainland Commons

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Originally Posted by brettinhalifax View Post
Mainland Commons is not a realistic site. It is one thing to bulldoze 7 acres of the commons to build a stadium, but what about parking? 29 more acres bulldozed for surface parking? Not a chance.
Brett,
Think you have it in wrong location......Mainland Commons is at the top of Fairview along the 102 not downtown at the Willow Tree.....
     
     
  #1555  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 1:05 PM
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Quarry

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Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
Could you send a link to the exact area that you are thinking of? Later tonight I could put a stadium on one of those locations.
Fenwick
Try to use the quarried area closest to BayersLake at Lacewood.....the other excavated area could become parking or developed as hotel/motel/restuarants....etc etc...with road access directly off the 102 plus roadways in from Bayers Lk and the Keanrey Lk Rd....I think it offers entrances form several direction which would great....

The site would be not the most likeable from a scenic view point....for that I would swing to Shannon or the Mainland Commons looking out over the peninsula.

Last edited by ATL Stadium; Oct 6, 2010 at 1:06 PM. Reason: typo
     
     
  #1556  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 1:19 PM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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Stadium Requirements

Build an Economically affordable 25,000 to 30,000 expandable (endzones) Stadium. Small enough to be affordable and big enough (when needed) to attract larger events.

Location is a key factor but hard to get a consensus of any sort.

Market Population numbers...ticket buyers (aprox 500,000)
Peninsula 58,000
HRM Hfx side 180,000
HRM Dart side 134,000
1 hr Outside of HRM 125,000 (Truro, Bwatr, Windsor....)

Ease of traffic and available mass transit would be great, but to no existing.

Stadium will not attract any Private investment....other than selling of naming rights and the potential for advertising on site etc etc all operational revenues.
     
     
  #1557  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 3:14 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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From today's Chronicle Herald Online...

Stadium would help us rock

By ROGER TAYLOR Business Columnist
Wed, Oct 6 - 7:20 AM

Harold MacKay is proof that a guy with a computer and a lot of chutzpah can have a big impact on a community.

For instance, the power promoter behind Power Promotional Events Inc. managed to convince Halifax regional council to lease the Commons to him this summer so he could put on a couple of concerts.

True to his word, the concerts were held. But the trouble is neither the Black Eyed Peas nor the country music concert made enough money to pay all the bills, according to MacKay.

Power was also the producer of the Paul McCartney and Kiss concerts on the Common the year before. Although he never acknowledged it, there were suggestions those events also failed to make money.

MacKay recently sent an email to unpaid suppliers to Power Promotional Events to inform them that his company wasn’t able to make ends meet and he had decided to shut the door and walk away from his remaining obligations.

His creditors are upset, to say the least, but nobody is betting MacKay won’t make another comeback.

MacKay developed a reputation as a promoter while he was still a vice-president with Moosehead Breweries. He pushed the so-called Halifax Grand Prix in downtown Halifax, which was sponsored by Moosehead. He is also credited with pushing the brewery to bring major junior hockey to the Maritimes with the introduction of the Halifax Mooseheads in 1994.

He is also said to have helped bring the former Granby Predateurs franchise to Sydney, where they are known as the Cape Breton Screaming Eagles.

After he left Moosehead, MacKay went on to found his own brewery, Maritime Brewing Co., in Dartmouth, to brief success. But in 1999, the company was forced to declare bankruptcy. The brewing assets were eventually acquired by Sleeman Breweries Ltd., which still operate the facility in Burnside Park.

In 2005, MacKay founded the semi-professional Canadian Elite Hockey League, with emphasis on the rough stuff. The league only lasted one season.

It’s obvious that beer is in MacKay’s blood. Along with partners, he created a microbrewery, Keltic Brewing Co. Ltd., which operated the Mugsy McCeol’s Pub and Grillhouse in Truro, until it also closed shop recently.

Rather than reacting every year to what one promoter or another brings to the table, city council may now have an opportunity to develop a more thoughtful plan for future events. What’s the point of having a great recreational area in the middle of Halifax if the space is tied up with preparations for concerts that drag on for about a month at a time?

The failure of Power Promotional could mean there won’t be another concert held on the Common next summer. Besides, the precious green space will require much of the summer to recover from having the Canada Games speedskating oval erased.

Perhaps it is time to look at creating a permanent facility, such as a stadium, that could be used for both sporting events and concerts.

I remember singer Rod Stewart and others held successful concerts on the Garrison Grounds that were far less disruptive than the concerts on the Common. Perhaps some kind of permanent concert capability could be established there.

If there was seating and other facilities available as part of a stadium, it would cut the cost of hosting a concert. Cutting costs may be the difference between successful concerts, where everyone is paid what they’re owed, and failures, where the promoter walks away leaving local suppliers holding the bag.

( [email protected])
     
     
  #1558  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 5:09 PM
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For concerts (and other events), an economical stadium like the Cardiff City Stadium would be an excellent choice in my opinion. This has all the seats covered so people could still attend concerts comfortably even during the rain. I think that it should be possible to build this type of stadium so that it would seat about 25,000 - 28,000 initially but be expandable to about 35,000 with a short upper tier all around (if you look at the image below there is a short upper tier on the right-hand side-stands). The Cardiff City Stadium was built for £48 million (for the stadium portion - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_City_Stadium ). That would be about $77 million Canadian. Since the Halifax climate is relatively mild even early in December, I think that an outdoor stadium could be used about 8 - 9 months of the year if all the seats are covered (it could be used all year round if people bundle up warmly). The Cardiff City Stadium is especially well suited to maximum year round use because it is completely enclosed except over the playing field. When used for concerts, the band could set up in the center of the field with a canopy over the stage. Thousands of people could be allowed on the field for a closer view but if only 25,000 or less are in attendance then they would have a dry place to sit in case of rain.

In addition to having it permanently expandable, if the first row of seats were raised by about 7 feet (which is good for viewing football) then for special events like the Grey Cup, an additional 6 rows of temporary seats could be put all around at field level which could add another 4,000 plus (with a 100 foot gap on both sides where the players could stand so as not to obstruct the field level spectators). So I think that the Cardiff City Stadium could be built economically so that it could eventually seat close to 40,000 (with additional permanent and temporary seats) for special events even if it started with only 25,000. For very large concerts such as U2, additional standing room of about 15,000 could be easily accommodated on the field.

The more that I think about it, the more that I think that Halifax needs a Cardiff City type Stadium for large concerts and sporting events as opposed to going with a larger 15,000 seat Metro Centre arena. Then Halifax could host hockey, basketball, soccer, football, monster trucks (for example) between the current Metro Centre and a new Cardiff City style stadium. I think that a majority of people would be in favour of such a stadium - it is economical but practical for the wet maritime climate in Nova Scotia.

(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_City_Stadium )
     
     
  #1559  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 5:26 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by ATL Stadium View Post
Fenwick
Try to use the quarried area closest to BayersLake at Lacewood.....the other excavated area could become parking or developed as hotel/motel/restuarants....etc etc...with road access directly off the 102 plus roadways in from Bayers Lk and the Keanrey Lk Rd....I think it offers entrances form several direction which would great....

The site would be not the most likeable from a scenic view point....for that I would swing to Shannon or the Mainland Commons looking out over the peninsula.
That is a big concern. Is the Halifax Mainland Commons really not a possibility as some people indicate? After all, the HRM cleared several acres for the new Canada Winter Games facility. On the Halifax side, that would be the most scenic area. On the Dartmouth side, I think that Commodore Drive/John Savage Drive.
     
     
  #1560  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 6:37 PM
Welkin Welkin is offline
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Here is a link to a video on YouTube of the Stereophonics concert in Cardiff City Stadium. It has some great shots of the concert crowd. It looks like they packed in 30,000+. This stadium looks like a good concert venue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnfH8KminEI&feature=related

Last edited by Welkin; Oct 6, 2010 at 9:03 PM.
     
     
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