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  #2901  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2010, 2:24 AM
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The Aberdeen yard is the only place to go on that part of the line, trains can't go through it. The track ends at the 403 and the rail trail begins. Off topic thought, they could fast track lrt by putting track back on the rail trail, it goes right to Dundas, (which should be part of the LRT to make it work).
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  #2902  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2010, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Jon Dalton View Post
CP still runs east to Welland and to the Bayview Junction where it connects to the CN mainline to Toronto. I think most of those freights are going through, not to or from the Aberdeen yard. I know CP is totally unwilling to let GO use any more track time due to freight traffic demands. If that could have been resolved by moving the Aberdeen yard and rerouting trains somewhere else, that would have come up long before now in negotiations with GO Transit. $30M went into rail improvements for the TH&B restoration (in the early 90's), if they could have made provisions for all day service they would have done it back then, I would think. Bob Bratina probably knows more about this.

Paging Bob Bratina....
Paging Bob Bratina......
With the CP rail yards transformed to a stadium, the amount of traffic CP had along Hamilton Subdivision will likely drop significantly, but not completely. As Jon pointed out, the southern portion of Hamilton Subdivision is used actively to link Welland to Hamilton and the northern section links to CP's Galt and Guelph subdivisions (via Desjardin/Hamilton Junction). I believe there are only 6 mainline trains that CP has running the length of Hamilton Subdivision these days. One would think there would be more capacity available for GO service along CP's Hamilton Subdivison as a result of eliminating the Aberdeen Yards from service (and the associated traffic related to the shunting that takes place there).
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  #2903  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2010, 6:04 PM
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http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...-build-stadium

10 million for a $165 million stadium??? Are they serious?
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  #2904  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2010, 7:17 PM
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The Ti Cats say Bob Young spent $30 million over the decade and he's probably going to spend just as much within 3 years.

Not only will they pay for the cost of the stadium construction they'll also buy acres of CP land, pay for brownfield cleanup, operate the stadium for 20 years, acquire a soccer team, establish a soccer academy, bring retail, convention space and hotel to the property, instead of the city spending millions annually to the Ti Cats they'll only have to pay $100,000, new tax base, bring concerts, sporting events, etc and host several Grey Cups events.
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  #2905  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2010, 1:03 PM
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I don't like the idea of the City having to pay $300k per year to use a stadium that they built.

Didn't the CFL say they needed a 45,000 seat stadium to host a Grey Cup?

Wasn't the funding gap $35M? I don't see how $10M (over ten years) fixes that.
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  #2906  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2010, 2:00 PM
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Matt, the city is paying $300,000 to have the facility managed by the Ticats, certainly not for usage rights as implied.

CFL does require seating of 45,000 for a Grey Cup match. Generally stadia that host the cup have additional temporary seating put in place for the event. A 25000-seat stadium ill not impede hosting future Grey Cups so long as the design allows for the placement of temporary seating.

The additional $10 million in funding the Ticats are bringing forward does not cover the funding gap. There's still a need for additional funding, thus the recommendation to formally request funds from the feds and the province.

At the end of the day, this will be a city-owned facility. Any amount of money the Ticats, the feds and the province put into its construction subsidizes the overall cost for the city to acquire this new infrastructure.

There are a few holdout WH supporters who would rather scuttle this compromise location than see the stadium go anywhere but at Barton and Tiffany. That's unfortunate.
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  #2907  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2010, 3:52 PM
coalminecanary coalminecanary is offline
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Let's fix this - by adding some missing information and removing all of the emotional crap!

1) The Tiger-Cats agree to contribute $10,000,000 over the next 10 years towards the construction of the stadium. Subject to the terms/timing of these payments, this will make available $8 million to $10 million in capital financing.

2) The City and The Tiger-Cats will enter into a 20 year agreement.

3) The Tiger-Cats agree to purchase 10 to 15 acres of land which will be developed commercially and expected to yield approximately $500,000 in municipal taxes a year. This will offset the loss of approximately $213,000 in current tax assessment for a net gain of approximately $287,000.

4) Tiger-Cats agree to operate the Stadium at no risk to the City.(emotional wordsmithing)

5) The City of Hamilton and The Tiger-Cats will each contribute $200,000 annually to a Capital Reserve fund to be held by the City. The Tiger-Cats will fund their contribution through a ticket surcharge.

6) City agrees to pay the Tiger-Cats $300,000 annually as a management fee for running the Stadium and assuming the associated risk.

7) The City can use the Stadium for community uses at no additional cost. We can also use the Stadium to host special provincial, national and international events and the Tiger-Cats will work with the City to attract and host these events.

8) Tiger-Cats are willing to create a “Hamilton Legacy Foundation” regarding the redevelopment of the Ivor Wynne and West Harbour Sites. A proposal in this regard will be forthcoming. (still speculation)

9) Tiger-Cats have obtained an exclusive option for a North American Soccer League franchise for Hamilton and have begun the formal application process and will use their best efforts to acquire a NASL franchise to play out of the new Pan Am stadium. (still speculation)

10) The Tiger-Cats plan to start a soccer academy in conjunction with the operation of the professional soccer team. (still speculation)

11) The Tiger-Cats retain naming rights and other advertising revenues to offset the cost of running the Stadium.(emotional wordsmithing)

And why don't we add:

12) The cost estimate for the traffic infrastructure required for the development of the stadium has been estimated at approximately $6,000,000 (Who will pay for this?)

13) The development of the CP site on Aberdeen and Longwood for a stadium and other uses will result in the displacement of two businesses. The first is a business that unloads and distributes bulk product by rail. At this point it is not clear as to what costs would be incurred in order to relocate this facility. The second is a 150,000 square foot warehousing and trans-shipment operation that has multiple customers in Hamilton, Ontario and North America. Current municipal taxes on the facility are $213,430.00 with approximately 65 employees involved in administration, sales, operations and logistics.

14) The City will take full responsibility for turf replacement, and capital maintenance items covered by the Design, Build, Finance, Maintain obligations of the Stadium constructor.

15) The Tiger Cats will receive all revenues at the Stadium, including parking revenues.
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  #2908  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2010, 7:51 PM
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Scott Mitchell said it will be full $10 million towards the stadium, not $8-10 range.
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  #2909  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2010, 9:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
Matt, the city is paying $300,000 to have the facility managed by the Ticats, certainly not for usage rights as implied.
Right you are. That was my mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
At the end of the day, this will be a city-owned facility. Any amount of money the Ticats, the feds and the province put into its construction subsidizes the overall cost for the city to acquire this new infrastructure.
If it's a city owned, but Ti-Cats run facility, does that incur a conflict of interest with HECFI if there are concerts there?
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  #2910  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2010, 9:33 PM
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http://twitter.com/#!/markhmasters/status/27170617771

Quote:
#Ticats pres. Scott Mitchell says even w/ 9 sellouts a year the #CFL team would still lose $ at Ivor Wynne Stadium #HamOnt
How will having a new stadium (with less seats) fix this?
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  #2911  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2010, 3:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mattgrande View Post
If it's a city owned, but Ti-Cats run facility, does that incur a conflict of interest with HECFI if there are concerts there?
How so? The demographics for concerts at Hamilton Place and even Copps is very different from an open air stadium. The outdoor stadium as a concert venue has a brief season and frankly is not much of a preferred venue for performers these days. If four concerts a year were booked I'd be surprised.

Besides, isn't HECFI on the way out what with Katz wanting to manage those venues - or was that all just smoke and mirrors?
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  #2912  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2010, 11:14 AM
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Stadium plan $53.7 million short
Decision on Pan Am site will be left to team elected on Oct. 25

Emma Reilly
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...-million-short

The city is still months away and millions of dollars short of resolving the Pan Am stadium debate.

At city council's penultimate meeting Tuesday, council did not officially approve the CP rail yard site at Aberdeen Avenue and Longwood Road because crucial pieces of information weren't available.

The city still has to finalize several key details, including how it's going to bridge a funding gap of at least $53.7 million.

That means the final decision on the Pan Am Games will be left to the councillors set to be elected Oct. 25, sparing the current council from making a controversial decision less than two weeks before voters go to the polls.

“In the middle of an election process at this point in time without all the information, it would be irresponsible of us to make a decision other than to say, let's keep moving forward,” said Mayor Fred Eisenberger. “The next council will have some challenges to deal with, one way or another.”

One of the biggest hurdles facing the next council will be financing.

According to city finance chief Rob Rossini, the total construction costs for the stadium are $166 million. The total funding currently committed from the three levels of government totals $125 million. That leaves a gap of $40.7 million for construction of the stadium alone, not including land acquisition, remediation, business relocation and demolition.

The Hamilton Tiger-Cats have told city officials they'll commit $8 million to $10 million over 10 years to help with construction costs.

That lessens the capital funding gap to between $30 million and $32 million.

However, Cats president Scott Mitchell made it clear at Tuesday's meeting that the city should not count on the Tiger-Cats for any further money and the team has reached its limit in terms of financial contributions.

“We're at our threshold financially. Certainly, much like the city, we're all in and want to get to a solution,” Mitchell said outside the council chamber.

The city is also short when it comes to the velodrome and west harbour redevelopment.

The city has spent $9 million on land in the west harbour, formerly earmarked as the stadium site but abandoned after the Tiger-Cats said the team would refuse to play there.

There's also a $14-million funding gap to build a permanent velodrome.

Added to the $32-million shortfall for construction of the stadium, that leaves the city looking for an additional $55 million, plus funding for land-related costs such as remediation.

The city and the Ticats are looking to the upper levels of government to come up with extra funding.

Though the province has sent positive signals about bumping up its funding levels, the federal government says it needs more time to decide whether to commit extra funding.

That's one of the reasons

why staff advised councillors to put off a decision until after the election.

Though the city and the Tiger-Cats are co-operating, neither side is entirely happy with the site.

Mitchell told councillors that private funding hasn't come as easily because the city didn't choose a suburban green field with lots of space for development.

“If you want private sector involvement, development's going to be a large part of that … If you're going to want to attract a vast amount of private sector investment, you have to go to where the private sector is going to make a lot of money.”

Eisenberger made it clear his preferred location is still the west harbour. He expressed concern that the city hadn't allocated “a dollar” to west harbour redevelopment so far.

“My preferred option has been the west harbour. That would have been, in my view, perfect,” he said. “But compromise is working through and finding solutions for everyone.”

Though several councillors mentioned they were pleased with the city's progress on the CP site, councillors Sam Merulla and Brian McHattie — the only two councillors who voted against moving forward with the CP lands — told council the public doesn't want a Pan Am stadium.

Merulla said the city keeps trying new sites and not finding workable solutions.

“Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting the same results,” he said. “At what point are we going to end the madness?”

The next Pan Am update will be delivered to the newly elected council in January 2011.
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  #2913  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2010, 2:51 PM
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  #2914  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2010, 5:19 PM
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Anything from Dreschel yet? I thought that was him in the front row taking notes.
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  #2915  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2010, 5:24 PM
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Sleeping on the job pays off for council

Andrew Dreschel

http://www.thespec.com/opinion/artic...ff-for-council
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  #2916  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 4:18 PM
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Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
Bigguy, it's not my math that arrived at that figure. Those numbers are directly from the City of Hamilton's Pan Am games website, the proverbial horse's mouth.

It's what's called doing a bit pf research instead of just pulling numbers from the top of your hat. Take a look at the facts yourself, they are posted in the second item on their FAQ page:



I would trust they would have the most accurate tally on who's paying what.

With regards to your sophmoric final comment, while I would be grateful never to actually have to meet you or any of your friends in person, should we ever have the misfortune of meeting I am sure you'd quickly realize another misconception of yours is that my desire to conduct civil discussion is an indication of a 'delicate disposition'.
You accuse me of not using facts and then you refer to a statement devoid of any facts on a city cheerleading site. I will stand by my statement about how much has been committed by the province and feds $80 million. Those are numbers that are real as of today. If you want, I'll add another $10 million to spruce up Copps and clean up the downtown for the games. But even with that it is still only $90 million, a long way from the $150-$200 million that is stated on the city's site. If they had that much to spend the city wouldn't be scrambling to find an extra $50 million for a stadium, they could just take it out of that extra $100 million or so that we had been promised.
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  #2917  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 11:24 PM
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I can't wait for the new council to decide it's going to Confederation Park, then watch the private money pour in and build a first-class stadium on our real waterfront. Then watch hotels and a sports and entertainment strip develop on the beach.

And finally Hamilton would have embraced its coastline like a big league city.
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  #2918  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2010, 2:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Globe&Mail
According to a story in the Republic, the city owes $500-million on sports facilities it built to attract professional teams to Glendale, including a $180-million investment in Jobing.com Arena. That is a staggering sum for a city of 250,000 people. Thanks to the recession, entertainment and retail developments that were supposed to spring up to provide the revenue to pay the debt have either failed to materialize or are bringing in a fraction of the projected income.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle1757924/

Part of another story but interesting parallels
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  #2919  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2010, 1:58 PM
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http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...ty-not-stadium

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Voters target city poverty, not stadium

City voters are overwhelmingly against spending more on the Pan Am stadium, but they’re prepared to shell out more of their tax dollars to combat poverty.

A Spectator/Nanos poll has found that 62.6 per cent of the 1,000 voters polled are opposed to spending more city tax dollars on the new stadium for the Pan Am Games and the Hamilton Tiger Cats. Conversely, 80.4 per cent support the city spending more tax dollars to reduce poverty.
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  #2920  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2010, 2:40 AM
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Confederation Park will be back as an option
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Last edited by realcity; Oct 20, 2010 at 8:13 PM.
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