Tim Hortons Field | 40m | ? | Complete

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

I am not sure where the idea of 1/3 funding from each level of government comes from, but it isn't in place for any Pan Am facilities that I know of.

The funding formula for the track stadium are the same as for all other facilities, except in this case it is the university in partnership with Hostco rather than a municipality. York University is covering 44% of the cost of the new facility, and the university will assume full ownership of the facilities when competed. This is practically the same funding formula for all new facilities being built for the Pan Am Games, including Hamilton's Pan Am stadium.

At the end of the day, the deed for Hamilton's Pan Am Stadium will be handed to the city when completed, even though the city is providing less than half the cost to build the stadium. In this sense of the arrangement, Hamilton certainly is not being hard done by at all.

Where in my post did I say for this Pan Am games. I was refering to all previous international games hosted in this country. The formula has always been 1/3 for each level of government. As I have said many times before your comprehension skills are seriously lacking. Do a little research.

The most recent games in Vancouver had the 1/3 formula and that didn't include the cost over runs on security that were covered by the feds. The same formula also applied to Calgary for the Olympics and Edmonton and Victoria for the Commonwealth games. That has always been the standard. If you look into it it is still the standard with these Pan Ams. The difference is that standard isn't being applied to this city. 45% is not 33%. Toronto isn't even contributing what we are and they are the host city where the bulk of the money is being spent.

[markbarbera]

Bigguy you advising anyone to do research is a bit rich coming from you. A review of this and other thread in this SSP betray an obvious lack of research on your part, not to mention a certain lack of social skills.

I think you are confusing funding commitments from governments with budget allocations for specific venues by the organizing committee. The city's additional costs associated specifically with the stadium is to meet the city's requirments post-Games, which are not an actual requirements for the Games itself. And they do not represent the full investment being made by all levels of government in Hamilton in order to host all the events planned for the area.

For the record, the city has committed $60 million to Pan Am thus far while there has been $150-$200 million in federal and provincial investment committments in the Hamilton area for Pan Am Games, I'd hardly say the overall funding ratio is skewed unfairly against the city.

[mattgrande]

Bob Young says a whole lot of nothing: http://www.ticats.ca/article/caretak...date-october-5

[SteelTown]

‘We will’ invest in new stadium, says Tiger-Cats owner Bob Young

John Kernaghan
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...wner-bob-young

The Tiger-Cats and some minor partners are ready to invest in the Pan Am stadium and work with the city to develop revenue streams to make it viable.

Football club owner Bob Young promised to step up with some money in a letter on www.ticats.ca. And sources close to Pan Am talks said he will bring some smaller investors to the table, too.

“We can, and we will be, investing in the new stadium,” Young wrote, adding the Ticats want to help create enough economic activity to justify the city’s investment.

He did not detail how much the football club would contribute or if that contribution is tied to naming rights or other revenue sources. To this point, the club had offered only to buy and develop land adjacent to the stadium.

A spokesperson for city manager Chris Murray, who has led stadium negotiations, said the football club’s financial participation and management obligations in running the stadium will be outlined to city council next Tuesday.

Talks are on schedule and all the parties are working to make the stadium project happen, the spokesperson said.

“Bob Young has gone from being not optimistic to optimistic,” said Councillor Lloyd Ferguson. “That and agreement on a site are two positive developments.”

But he warned getting the long-simmering stadium issue to the finish line is still challenged by a large funding gap.

Ferguson said the city can’t contribute more and needs help from the federal government and Toronto 2015 host corporation.

A source close to the Pan Am planning said Young’s commitment to chip in on the stadium is a big step forward, adding Ottawa is expected to come up with some money, too.

The source said Young is taking another leap in faith in putting money into the stadium after substantial investments in the Ticats and his sports marketing business MRX.

“This site would be his third choice, after Aldershot and Confederation Park.”

The promise of money follows the call last week from the federal government for the football club and other private-sector parties to help finance a stadium that has grown in cost from early projections.

The funding gap between the $125 million three levels of government would provide and a bare-bones 25,000-seat stadium is $35 million. And that doesn’t include land acquisition, remediation and tenant relocation.

One positive, a source said, is that land cleanup costs won’t be as high as feared.

City council is scheduled to consider the stadium Tuesday to meet a HostCo deadline.

But the federal government is expected to ask for another deadline extension so that a new council following the municipal election can vote on the stadium proposal.

[SteelTown]

Hamilton has three stadium options

John Kernaghan
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...tadium-options

Hamilton has two backup options if the west-end stadium proposal fails.

The city has asked the Pan Am Games organizing committee to confirm soccer for the 2015 Games based on its ability to deliver a facility in one of three ways.

Councillor Brian McHattie says city manager Chris Murray laid out the options to Games organizers.

They are:

• A 25,000-seat stadium for Games soccer and the Tiger-Cats, the legacy partner

• A refurbished Ivor Wynne Stadium

• McMaster’s Ron Joyce Stadium with 8,000 temporary seats added to provide a 15,000-seat venue

Murray’s office did not confirm this three-pronged approach Friday afternoon.

McHattie said the options let the city prepare for the possible failure of the west-end CP lands as a stadium site.

He will move Tuesday at a committee of the whole meeting that if the site fails, the city commit to the original west harbour site, and if the Tiger-Cats won’t go there, the city put $20 million toward renovating Ivor Wynne Stadium.

The remaining $25 million in Future Fund money could be reallocated to the west harbour, possibly with some money going into the Pan Am velodrome, which has a $10- to $15-million funding gap.

McHattie will draft another motion calling on the city to look at the impact the CP lands would have if they were used for development associated with the nearby McMaster Innovation Park.

“I don’t think a stadium is a wise use for these lands,” he said. “And I think the costs are such that we’re not going to get the provincial and federal dollars to cover the cost there.”

The price of land, remediation and relocation of three businesses could double an existing $35-million funding gap.

McHattie said an e-mail update on the stadium he sent to constituents prompted about 300 replies, with some 85 per cent opposed to the stadium in that site.

He said many are upset with the letter Ticat owner Bob Young wrote on the team’s website.

“It gave the impression this is a done deal,” McHattie said. “Well, it is not, and many people are picking up on that.”

[SteelTown]

International Event Opportunities – 2015 Pan Am Games Update

http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/...12CM09006j.pdf

[SteelTown]

"In addition to developing a portion of the site, the Tiger-Cats have agreed to make an $8,000,000 to $10,000,000 capital contribution to the stadium.

The Tiger-Cats have also agreed to pay a yearly amount of $200,000, through a ticket surcharge, for a capital reserve."

[SteelTown]

Memorandum of Understanding City / Tiger-Cats

The Tiger-Cats and the City have reached a tentative Memorandum of Understanding for the participation in the building and operation of the Pan Am Stadium. The highlights of this agreement are as follows:

1) The Tiger-Cats agree to contribute $10,000,000 over the next 10 years towards the construction of the stadium. Subject to the terms/timing of these payments, this will make available $8 million to $10 million in capital financing.

2) The Tiger-Cats will enter into a 20 year agreement.

3) The Tiger-Cats agree to purchase 10 to 15 acres of land which will be developed commercially and expected to yield approximately $500,000 in municipal taxes a year.

4) Tiger-Cats agree to operate the Stadium at no risk to the City.

5) Tiger-Cats will contribute $200,000 annually to a Capital Reserve fund to be held by the City. The Tiger-Cats will fund their contribution through a ticket surcharge.

6) City agrees to pay the Tiger-Cats $300,000 annually as a management fee for running the Stadium and assuming the associated risk.

7) The City can use the Stadium for community uses at no additional cost. We can also use the Stadium to host special provincial, national and international events and the Tiger-Cats will work with the City to attract and host these events.

8) Tiger-Cats are willing to create a “Hamilton Legacy Foundation” regarding the redevelopment of the Ivor Wynne and West Harbour Sites. A proposal in this regard will be forthcoming.

9) Tiger-Cats have obtained an exclusive option for a North American Soccer League franchise for Hamilton and have begun the formal application process and will use their best efforts to acquire a NASL franchise to play out of the new Pan Am stadium.

10) The Tiger-Cats plan to start a soccer academy in conjunction with the operation of the professional soccer team.

11) The Tiger-Cats retain naming rights and other advertising revenues to offset the cost of running the Stadium.

[padthai]

From the City report (page 5): "Of specific short-term actions to be taken, staff will be seeking Council's approval to begin the process of demolition within the land holdings in the West Harbour area. Staff believe that many of the properties acquired within this precinct are in a condition where demolition and the maintenance of the property is of paramount public interest. A move toward the demolition of these properties would send a clear message to the neighbourhood of the City's commitment to the re-development of an area of prime importance for the City's future."

Great news! It sounds like something Councilor Jelly (errr..Bratina?) would have included.

[padthai]

Some of the other tidbits from the report that I found interesting:
- the traffic consultants are basically saying we need the upgrades or else we'll "experience extensive delays. Traffic will be at a standstill on Longwood, from the stadium to Main West; on Main West from Longwood, past the 403 off-ramp and approaching McMaster; and on the 403 itself. MTO will not support this scenario." Not really surprising, but interesting nonetheless.
- upgrades are already planned like "widening of Longwood Road to five lanes, from the bridge to Aberdeen Avenue, intersection improvements at Aberdeen and Longwood, the extension of Frid Street to Longwood Road to provide a route through McMaster Innovation Park (MIP) and the provision of access to westbound Highway 403, west of Longwood Road (connect Main West to the 403 via the Aberdeen on ramp)."
- the City has spent over $10 million and 694 staff days on stadium-related items since May 1st, 2010. Merulla's probably got those numbers burned into his brain for campaign speeches from now til the 25th...

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Bigguy you advising anyone to do research is a bit rich coming from you. A review of this and other thread in this SSP betray an obvious lack of research on your part, not to mention a certain lack of social skills.

I think you are confusing funding commitments from governments with budget allocations for specific venues by the organizing committee. The city's additional costs associated specifically with the stadium is to meet the city's requirments post-Games, which are not an actual requirements for the Games itself. And they do not represent the full investment being made by all levels of government in Hamilton in order to host all the events planned for the area.

For the record, the city has committed $60 million to Pan Am thus far while there has been $150-$200 million in federal and provincial investment committments in the Hamilton area for Pan Am Games, I'd hardly say the overall funding ratio is skewed unfairly against the city.

I think your math is a little off. The commitment for the Pan Ams from the feds and province is about $80 million, not even close to the $150 -$ 200 million you assert. I realize that extra funding is required for a larger stadium and that the city is on the hook for that.

The original cost estimates for the facilities as needed for the Pan Ams were $102 million for a 15,000 seat stadium at the West Harbour with the city providing about half of that. The velodrome funding for a 3500 seat facility was $11.3 million again with the city assuming about half that cost. The pool at Mac was to have cost $35 million with the upper levels of government paying 56% of the costs and Mac the rest. Like I said your math is a little off because the funding from the upper levels of government will only add up to around $80 million. As for the ratio, figure it out, $80 million versus $60 million. I guess in your mind it's okay for this city to be shortchanged so that Toronto can benefit.

As for my social skills I do just fine. You wouldn't last 5 minutes with my friends and I before they would have you with your delicate disposition in tears.

[markbarbera]

Bigguy, it's not my math that arrived at that figure. Those numbers are directly from the City of Hamilton's Pan Am games website, the proverbial horse's mouth.

It's what's called doing a bit pf research instead of just pulling numbers from the top of your hat. Take a look at the facts yourself, they are posted in the second item on their FAQ page:

How much are the Games costing Hamilton?

A: Hamilton is investing $60 million in the games from the Hamilton Future Fund and in return is benefitting from $150-$200 million in federal and provincial investment in the Hamilton area.

http://www.panamhamilton2015.ca/faq.php

I would trust they would have the most accurate tally on who's paying what.

With regards to your sophmoric final comment, while I would be grateful never to actually have to meet you or any of your friends in person, should we ever have the misfortune of meeting I am sure you'd quickly realize another misconception of yours is that my desire to conduct civil discussion is an indication of a 'delicate disposition'.

[highwater]

Alright. Put the dicks away, boys. I'd actually enjoy the opportunity to meet both of you, even though you've both been total pricks at times. It's always productive to meet people who care enough about their city to post to forums like this, even if you don't always agree on specific issues.

The narcissism of small differences tends to get magnified on wonky forums like this one, and while the Irishwoman in me adores a good donnybrook over urban minutiae like set-backs and parking requirements, I imagine if we met (maybe we have, who knows? Hamilton is an awfully small town), we'd find our hopes and dreams for our city remarkabley similar.

Eww. That sounded dangerously close to one of those concern trollish requests for civility that have more to do with the commenter's need to be seen as 'moderate' or 'above the fray'. I apologize. After I have had my morning coffee, I will return to my former, immoderate, 'in the fray' self.

And now back to our previously scheduled dick-measuring contest.

[Anders Knudsen]

Originally Posted by highwater

Alright. Put the dicks away, boys. I'd actually enjoy the opportunity to meet both of you, even though you've both been total pricks at times. It's always productive to meet people who care enough about their city to post to forums like this, even if you don't always agree on specific issues.

The narcissism of small differences tends to get magnified on wonky forums like this one, and while the Irishwoman in me adores a good donnybrook over urban minutiae like set-backs and parking requirements, I imagine if we met (maybe we have, who knows? Hamilton is an awfully small town), we'd find our hopes and dreams for our city remarkabley similar.

Eww. That sounded dangerously close to one of those concern trollish requests for civility that have more to do with the commenter's need to be seen as 'moderate' or 'above the fray'. I apologize. After I have had my morning coffee, I will return to my former, immoderate, 'in the fray' self.

And now back to our previously scheduled dick-measuring contest.

You also have a backspace button that allows you to do much easier what you just did.

[realcity]

Why would anyone want to bully someone verbally into tears????

[Jon Dalton]

I think it's time for another board meeting. It's an entirely different dynamic arguing with someone in real time with real alcohol to fuel the discussion. It can get heated but then you take a drink and the topic changes. I end up disagreeing with some of my friends on the internet but the next time we run into each other it always seems to be cool. It's different when you're dealing with a person and not just an idea.

[Jon Dalton]

Of course we should keep the penis length measurements strictly online.

[SteelTown]

If CP agrees to give up the yard that means we've relocated them to the East. Therefore from the yard to the GO Station the CP rail line is abandon by CP. Couldn't we get GO Transit to take ownership of the line? After that couldn't GO turn the GO Station an all day GO Train station?

[dennis1]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

If CP agrees to give up the yard that means we've relocated them to the East. Therefore from the yard to the GO Station the CP rail line is abandon by CP. Couldn't we get GO Transit to take ownership of the line? After that couldn't GO turn the GO Station an all day GO Train station?

That might be difficult.

[Jon Dalton]

CP still runs east to Welland and to the Bayview Junction where it connects to the CN mainline to Toronto. I think most of those freights are going through, not to or from the Aberdeen yard. I know CP is totally unwilling to let GO use any more track time due to freight traffic demands. If that could have been resolved by moving the Aberdeen yard and rerouting trains somewhere else, that would have come up long before now in negotiations with GO Transit. $30M went into rail improvements for the TH&B restoration (in the early 90's), if they could have made provisions for all day service they would have done it back then, I would think. Bob Bratina probably knows more about this.

Paging Bob Bratina....
Paging Bob Bratina......