Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by punface

The video of the Vancouver City Council meeting yesterday where they discussed the TransLink’s UBC Line Rapid Transit Study report is up on the CoV website: http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20101005/ttra20101005ag.htm

I skipped through it, watching about half the total content. My impression is that everyone is pretty pro-SkyTrain, but not willing to come out and say it at this stage.

Of the four speakers from the public, only one was against SkyTrain, stating it was expensive, causes problems during construction, is not accessible to people with disabilities or strollers, and would not remove road space.

Another speaker had a powerpoint slide which suggested continuing from VCC-Clark to Fraser&Broadway instead of Great Northern Way (seems like a good idea to me.)

Another speaker was a former CoV transportation employee who made a strong case for bored tunnel.

After 1.5 hours of that, it looks like there was a bicycle lane meeting that went all night. You couldn't pay me enough money to get into politics.

Not accessible? Tell that to the 4 babies in strollers on my Skytrain car last night... AT 10 freaking 30 at night!!!! Don't babies have bedtimes anymore?

I think boring straight to Fraser and Broadway can make sense under the right circumstances. Metro Vancouver is really trying to keep the False Creek Flats 100% industrial to preserve the rail yards. Their reasoning is even if they are underused now, it will be impossible to replace the space if it's needed at a later time, especially for something important to downtown like High Speed rail. And Vision Vancouver seems to want to keep it industrial and try and revive the local warehouse industry, for locally used goods, to lower the city's carbon footprint. So if the flats are to remain industrial for the long term future it might be more logical to put a station on Broadway at Fraser, as that area can (and is) become more densely populated.

[Zassk]

Routing M-line to Fraser Street sounds like a great idea...

The Great Northern Way station would be only 500-600m away from Main St-Science World station (actual walking distance), depending on its exact alignment.

And it would be barely 600m away from the future station at Main and Broadway. Seems too close to me.

So why not build a station 800m further east on Broadway instead? I think it's a great idea.

[officedweller]

Probably depends whether they can execute a turn to place a station at Fraser & Broadway (otherwise it would be too close to Main/Mt. Pleasant) and no one like tight turns these days.
There's no street RoW (like Prince Edward) immediately south of GNW, but that shouldn't be too much of a hurdle (more cost for a RoW, but negotiable with property owners).

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Not accessible? Tell that to the 4 babies in strollers on my Skytrain car last night... AT 10 freaking 30 at night!!!! Don't babies have bedtimes anymore?

Babies' bedtimes are whenever and wherever they want to sleep. Which is pretty much all the time except when you're sleeping.

[Robert in Calgary]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I think boring straight to Fraser and Broadway can make sense under the right circumstances.

During my last visit in April/May, I did some exploring in the area and I thought Prince Albert Street would be a good choice.

[Millennium2002]

I disagree with placing a stop at Fraser... Rather I think there should be one to support the fledgling Great Northern Way Campus... and just continue redirecting Fraser buses to the Mount Pleasant stop (at Kingsgate Mall).

EDIT:

False Creek Flats Planning

False Creek Flats Future Movement Map

Apparently the city planned to send the trains down Prince Edward... and have an intermediate stop at Great Northern Way... just as what I was expecting. ^^

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by mr.x

A comment from the Straight:


Gordon listen up
Sat, 2010-10-02 22:45
Rating: +3
15 votes

Gordon, you grew up in Point Grey near W10th Avenue and your father was a well respected doctor. You've had a fantastic career so we'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I live near the house where you grew-up and know the area well. Some sort of efficient transit to UBC is surely needed. The howling, screeching, cancer and asthma causing 99 B-Lines are an abomination. I and hundreds of others who have sent in petitions asking for their removal truly wish that you ended the 99 B-Lines tomorrow.

However, many don’t want SkyTrains to replace the B-Lines because they go against our principle of sustainability in Vancouver. SkyTrains are creating another sprawling Toronto. We want local trolley buses to serve local communities with people living and working near their homes in Richmond, Surrey, Burnaby … Vancouver. We do not want people commuting into Vancouver for the Skytrains to be taken over by creepy crawlies after about ~8 pm.

Most decent people don't dare use SkyTrains late at night and SkyTrains are not welcome in Point Grey. They are expensive to build, maintain and police. They are stupid and are leading us to an unsustainable Lower Mainland. The only ones wanting them are developers who will gain from building condos along the SkyTrain routes and the ones whose jobs depend on more regional transit at TransLink.

Expand out trolley bus routes, remove the B-Lines and run a SeaBus service from downtown Vancouver to UBC. Hopefully you read this and do the right thing or the next NDP leader which is going to replace you will.

http://www.straight.com/article-351068/v...-gordon-campbell-tells-municipal-leaders


I'm speechless. ...at a loss for words.

simple solution:
Tunnel from Alma to UBC.
No station at Sasamat for the 'creme de la creme' to worry that the dregs of society could use to invade their area.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Not accessible? Tell that to the 4 babies in strollers on my Skytrain car last night... AT 10 freaking 30 at night!!!! Don't babies have bedtimes anymore?

I think boring straight to Fraser and Broadway can make sense under the right circumstances. Metro Vancouver is really trying to keep the False Creek Flats 100% industrial to preserve the rail yards. Their reasoning is even if they are underused now, it will be impossible to replace the space if it's needed at a later time, especially for something important to downtown like High Speed rail. And Vision Vancouver seems to want to keep it industrial and try and revive the local warehouse industry, for locally used goods, to lower the city's carbon footprint. So if the flats are to remain industrial for the long term future it might be more logical to put a station on Broadway at Fraser, as that area can (and is) become more densely populated.

Although it could be nice to have a station that would serve the False Creek industrial flats. With a bus route or two going through the area with the community buses.

Just because an area is industrial. Doesn't mean it could not use transit. Iin fact I'd say that is one the down sides in Metro Van. Transit service to the industrial areas is not all that great.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Although it could be nice to have a station that would serve the False Creek industrial flats. With a bus route or two going through the area with the community buses.

Just because an area is industrial. Doesn't mean it could not use transit. Iin fact I'd say that is one the down sides in Metro Van. Transit service to the industrial areas is not all that great.

But there are already 2 stations on the flats. VCC and Main street. The area is so large and spread out that you would need bus routes for the industrial areas, and there are already 2 potential but terminals located there.

In Metro's new regional strategy plan, they spell out that they want to keep the flats zoned industrial. I would like to see a major school built on the SW corner and be built around a Skytrain station, but if there is no intent on rezoning and increasing density, the area would be overserved by another Skytrain station there.

http://www.straight.com/article-347233/vancouver/vision-transforming-false-creek-flats?page=0,0

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

But there are already 2 stations on the flats. VCC and Main street. The area is so large and spread out that you would need bus routes for the industrial areas, and there are already 2 potential but terminals located there.

In Metro's new regional strategy plan, they spell out that they want to keep the flats zoned industrial. I would like to see a major school built on the SW corner and be built around a Skytrain station, but if there is no intent on rezoning and increasing density, the area would be overserved by another Skytrain station there.

http://www.straight.com/article-347233/vancouver/vision-transforming-false-creek-flats?page=0,0

see: http://gnwc.ca/contact/contact-and-directions-information

When the UBC Line is built, the next station westwards after VCC would be at Great Northern Way & Prince Edward - likely before the line curves south to run under Prince Edward to get to 10th Ave. Conveniently, this station is in the Great Northern Way campus area, so future campus construction can include this new station.

I've also seen a rough draft of the streetcar route that runs along 1st Ave (beside the Olympic Athletes Village) and curves north along Quebec St. There is a "Planned extension" of the line so it continues eastwards on 1st Ave & across Quebec St, then across Main St to take over the abandoned GNR (now CNR) tracks that run along the northern edge of the Great Northern Way campus. These streetcar tracks can run right to a new streetcar platform under the VCC station.

The streetcar lines around False Creek can provide another way for connecting to the SkyTrain lines around downtown.
a) Waterfront Stn (Expo, Millennium and Canada lines, and WCE and Seabus)
b) Main St Stn (Expo and Millennium lines)
c) Olympic Stn (Canada line)
d) VCC Stn (Millennium line)
e) future Great Northern Way campus station (future UBC Line).

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

When the UBC Line is built, the next station westwards after VCC would be at Great Northern Way & Prince Edward - likely before the line curves south to run under Prince Edward to get to 10th Ave.

That's exactly what we are debating. Which would be more useful - a station at GNW & Prince Edward, or a station at Fraser & Broadway? I think it is worth considering the Fraser location.

[Zassk]

Double post... hooray for SSP glitches.

[cabotp]

The problem I could see is how to get over to Fraser and Broadway from the current VCC-Clark location. I can just see the construction causing a lot of disruption to the area. With people being forced out due to their building being knocked down. Although I could be wrong on that part.

One thought I had is if they do insist on having a stop at Fraser & Broadway. Is to remove to current VCC-Clark station. After Commercial have the track bend to the south to go underground. Then have a station at Clark & Broadway and of course onto Fraser & Broadway. And from that point on we stick to the plan. This option was actually proposed in one of the drafts that Translink released a few months ago.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Zassk

That's exactly what we are debating. Which would be more useful - a station at GNW & Prince Edward, or a station at Fraser & Broadway? I think it is worth considering the Fraser location.

Yeah, especially if the Great Northern Way Campus can/will be connected by a Tram that goes between VCC and Main Street Station or Olympic Village Station. It makes having a Skytrain stop there really redundant. It's transit overload for an area that might or might not be rezoned. If the Great Norther Way Campus isn't going to become a full blown college/university like institution, with thousands of students, then having that much transit in that corner of the Flats seems like overkill for the current number of students. Instead, we could bring transit that much closer to the residents of Fraser Street. There are a lot of apartment buildings and multi-family homes centered around Broadway and Fraser. If the line were built today, a Fraser street station would have far more boardings than a GWN station.

[officedweller]

Exactly, the streetcar could be the feeder/ distributor between the Flats and the VCC SkyTrain Station (as well as Main Street on the other side).

Plans for starting a bored tunnel at Prince Edward had the staging area north of GNW, so the same could be done to tunnel up Fraser Street (I don't think the condos/apts on the south side have underground parking, do they?) The determining factor would be where the tail track currently ends and whether it could be configured to dive down with a reasonable curvature.
No one will be tearing down any existing guideway.

The station could be oriented north-south (between Broadway and 8th) to allow it to run under Fraser itself, but would probably have to be pretty deep.

Edit - The radius of curvature looks reasonable. The guideway would have to dive down under the empty lot next to the QLT building (I think i's now owned by Discovery Parks).
Looking at the aerial, however, Main and Fraser are pretty close together though.

Global Air Photo:

http://www.globalairphotos.com/large/BC/Vancouver/East/2010/0314/2

[Zassk]

Main and Fraser are 1/2 mile apart just like every other major N/S street in Vancouver. It is a reasonable distance for two stations to be separated.

The GNW station is the one that would cause two stations to be bunched close together. GNW at Prince Edward is really close to Main at Broadway (and also to Main at Terminal).

[officedweller]

Nice. One nit - I think you can assume the line will be under 10th Ave., not Broadway itself.

WRT proximity from Mt Pleasant station of a GNW Campus station versus Fraser station, the only main difference I can think of is that the geography (being at the bottom of the hill) gives it a more distinct catchment area than Fraser station versus Mt. Pleasant station, but as discussed, the streetcar could serve the bottom of the hill area.

I do agree that otherwise, the void on Broadway between Commercial Drive and Mt. Pleasant would be a large gap on a major street.

But remember that it was the City of Vancouver that requested the alignment change (originally, the VCC Station was to be under Broadway, but the City wanted the diversion to serve the future light industrial turned high tech precinct (like Renfrew and Rupert are supposed to do as well). Not sure if the City would oppose a change away from the GNW Campus.

[Robert in Calgary]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Plans for starting a bored tunnel at Prince Edward had the staging area north of GNW, so the same could be done to tunnel up Fraser Street (I don't think the condos/apts on the south side have underground parking, do they?) The determining factor would be where the tail track currently ends and whether it could be configured to dive down with a reasonable curvature.
No one will be tearing down any existing guideway.

The station could be oriented north-south (between Broadway and 8th) to allow it to run under Fraser itself, but would probably have to be pretty deep.

Edit - The radius of curvature looks reasonable. The guideway would have to dive down under the empty lot next to the QLT building (I think i's now owned by Discovery Parks).
Looking at the aerial, however, Main and Fraser are pretty close together though.

Dive down?

Oh. When I was in the area I was thinking the track would turn and rise up, cross over Great Northern Way and enter the hillside under and in between two of the buildings that are there.

There's the intersection of Prince Albert Street and East 6th Avenue. I believe there's enough room between the two buildings to stay clear of the basements.

[amor de cosmos]

would it make sense to have the extension to UBC start from the station at commercial & broadway? so there would be two spurs from there, one going to UBC & one going to VCC-Clark, like how the Canada line goes to YVR & Richmond-Brighouse. that would cover that chunk of broadway between mt pleasant & commercial

[officedweller]

Doubt it - that would orphan VCC-Clark with no prospect for extension except going north or south. I suppose it could enter the downtown on its own alignment, but with other projects, that wouldn't be in the cards.

Originally Posted by Robert in Calgary

Dive down?

Oh. When I was in the area I was thinking the track would turn and rise up, cross over Great Northern Way and enter the hillside under and in between two of the buildings that are there.

There's the intersection of Prince Albert Street and East 6th Avenue. I believe there's enough room between the two buildings to stay clear of the basements.

I've only ever heard of it going under GNW with TBM staging area to the north. It would be much more disruptive to launch the TBM south of GNW.