Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Yada [study UBC skytrain]
Yada [more transit]
Yada [study Langley Skytrain]

(repeat next year)

Get on with it!

Originally Posted by cabotp

Until I see a fricking shovel in the ground. It is all bull crap and worth nothing.

And thanks for briefing the story for me. I know don't have to read it and from what you post. I have a very good idea of what it is about.

Pls let me add my voice to this: Right on! Tell them shut the BLEEP up and "just do it"

[mr.x]

A comment from the Straight:


Gordon listen up
Sat, 2010-10-02 22:45
Rating: +3
15 votes

Gordon, you grew up in Point Grey near W10th Avenue and your father was a well respected doctor. You've had a fantastic career so we'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I live near the house where you grew-up and know the area well. Some sort of efficient transit to UBC is surely needed. The howling, screeching, cancer and asthma causing 99 B-Lines are an abomination. I and hundreds of others who have sent in petitions asking for their removal truly wish that you ended the 99 B-Lines tomorrow.

However, many don’t want SkyTrains to replace the B-Lines because they go against our principle of sustainability in Vancouver. SkyTrains are creating another sprawling Toronto. We want local trolley buses to serve local communities with people living and working near their homes in Richmond, Surrey, Burnaby … Vancouver. We do not want people commuting into Vancouver for the Skytrains to be taken over by creepy crawlies after about ~8 pm.

Most decent people don't dare use SkyTrains late at night and SkyTrains are not welcome in Point Grey. They are expensive to build, maintain and police. They are stupid and are leading us to an unsustainable Lower Mainland. The only ones wanting them are developers who will gain from building condos along the SkyTrain routes and the ones whose jobs depend on more regional transit at TransLink.

Expand out trolley bus routes, remove the B-Lines and run a SeaBus service from downtown Vancouver to UBC. Hopefully you read this and do the right thing or the next NDP leader which is going to replace you will.

http://www.straight.com/article-351068/v...-gordon-campbell-tells-municipal-leaders


I'm speechless. ...at a loss for words.

[Vancouver_Highrise]

^^ Wow just when I thought people couldn't get anymore arrogant

[BCPhil]

Hahahaha, If the NDP ever get power again, I think they're a little snakebitten when it comes to boats, so I don't think they would put their election fortunes on another high speed ferry scheme.

He so clearly doesn't want anyone else to even see his neighborhood that he wants them to go around it on a boat. I'm surprised he didn't also recommend we set up a network of Dirigibles and Gyrocopters.

Out of all the parties, the NDP are the most likely to just force through Skytrain on Broadway, well, that is if they were led by someone with ideas and vision like Harcourt or Clark. But the new DNP under James is trying to be "trendy", so they might just push through LRT because it's the global new hotness and it's what the Liberals didn't want to do.

Skytrain has an odd history. First it's the crown jewel of the Socreds, building it all the way out to Surrey. I believe the last phase to King George from Scott Road started construction right before the call of the 1991 election as an election platform. Then in come the NDP and halt any expansion further south of the Fraser (but at least they finished what the Socreds started). Then the NDP propose a Light Rail system, the T Line, because Skytrain was too Socred. But eventually cooler heads prevailed and millennium line was built as Skytrain because of the exploding success of the Expo Line, albeit at a much reduced project than original. Then come the Liberals and cancel any remaining Skytrain plans for the T Line. They switch the line to Coquitlam center to LRT, and even talk about RAV being LRT. Then with the Olympics happening, the Liberals decide they need a reliable, fast, high capacity system for RAV and build a subway. At the same time they switch Evergreen back to Skytrain technology. Now the liberals are talking about Broadway Skytrain, but the residents in the west want LRT (or actually I'm sure they would rather have UBC close, or at least become Ivy league like to keep the poor from crossing the city to get there). NDP will come in and champion Trams on Broadway and talk about money and sustainability, and all the people who never venture east of Main street will like that. But eventually there'll come a point where a decision will need to be made, and someone who probably is not elected will really favor extending the M line to take advantage of the existing transit network and infrastructure, recommend that to whoever is in charge, and Skytrain will be built (at least as far as Granville/Arbutus).

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by mr.x

A comment from the Straight:


Gordon listen up
Sat, 2010-10-02 22:45
Rating: +3
15 votes

Gordon, you grew up in Point Grey near W10th Avenue and your father was a well respected doctor. You've had a fantastic career so we'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I live near the house where you grew-up and know the area well. Some sort of efficient transit to UBC is surely needed. The howling, screeching, cancer and asthma causing 99 B-Lines are an abomination. I and hundreds of others who have sent in petitions asking for their removal truly wish that you ended the 99 B-Lines tomorrow.

However, many don’t want SkyTrains to replace the B-Lines because they go against our principle of sustainability in Vancouver. SkyTrains are creating another sprawling Toronto. We want local trolley buses to serve local communities with people living and working near their homes in Richmond, Surrey, Burnaby … Vancouver. We do not want people commuting into Vancouver for the Skytrains to be taken over by creepy crawlies after about ~8 pm.

Most decent people don't dare use SkyTrains late at night and SkyTrains are not welcome in Point Grey. They are expensive to build, maintain and police. They are stupid and are leading us to an unsustainable Lower Mainland. The only ones wanting them are developers who will gain from building condos along the SkyTrain routes and the ones whose jobs depend on more regional transit at TransLink.

Expand out trolley bus routes, remove the B-Lines and run a SeaBus service from downtown Vancouver to UBC. Hopefully you read this and do the right thing or the next NDP leader which is going to replace you will.

http://www.straight.com/article-351068/v...-gordon-campbell-tells-municipal-leaders


I'm speechless. ...at a loss for words.

This dribble also keeps me lost for words. It is beyond comprehension. Have these people never travelled to Europe or Asia before? Or even the large East Coast American cities?

I am so sorry, but not everyone's life is 2 dimensional and able to be retained in a 2km bubble.

For starters, not everyone can afford to live in the prime areas of vancouver.

Peoples lives also change constantly, are they suppose to move every time their job is slightly relocated or when they are going to school?

Also, what about the people who's jobs take them all over the metro area (such as mine). Rapid transit lines such as skytrain save me time and money!

What about people who are going to school, but need to save money by living at home (cant afford dorm fees or rent), or those who go to school in one area, and work in another?

Or how about when people want to go to specific restaurants or parks not in their little enclave, or how about a Canucks, Whitecaps or Lions game? What about going to important conferences that are not local to you?

Seriously, these people need to wake up.

The only reason why LRT is the mode of choice in the United States currently is because it is the cheapest! The US has a historical fear of big government and public transit. Which means fewer taxes and fewer people willing to have their taxes spent on mass transit. LRT is able to please the few who do support transit, while easing the fears of the American right wing. They are inferior backbone systems for cities with populations, such as Metro-Vancouver, in the millions. The US is not the one the follow. And as for the 2 Canadian LRT systems, both Calgary and Edmonton have large sections that are grade separated and these two systems primarily run in low density areas (compared to Vancouver) where they are able to have their own rail bed.

I am really getting tired of the bullshit here.

[mrjauk]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

This dribble also keeps me lost for words. It is beyond comprehension. Have these people never travelled to Europe or Asia before? Or even the large East Coast American cities?

I am so sorry, but not everyone's life is 2 dimensional and able to be retained in a 2km bubble.

For starters, not everyone can afford to live in the prime areas of vancouver.

Peoples lives also change constantly, are they suppose to move every time their job is slightly relocated or when they are going to school?

Also, what about the people who's jobs take them all over the metro area (such as mine). Rapid transit lines such as skytrain save me time and money!

What about people who are going to school, but need to save money by living at home (cant afford dorm fees or rent), or those who go to school in one area, and work in another?

Or how about when people want to go to specific restaurants or parks not in their little enclave, or how about a Canucks, Whitecaps or Lions game? What about going to important conferences that are not local to you?

Seriously, these people need to wake up.

The only reason why LRT is the mode of choice in the United States currently is because it is the cheapest! The US has a historical fear of big government and public transit. Which means fewer taxes and fewer people willing to have their taxes spent on mass transit. LRT is able to please the few who do support transit, while easing the fears of the American right wing. They are inferior backbone systems for cities with populations, such as Metro-Vancouver, in the millions. The US is not the one the follow. And as for the 2 Canadian LRT systems, both Calgary and Edmonton have large sections that are grade separated and these two systems primarily run in low density areas (compared to Vancouver) where they are able to have their own rail bed.

I am really getting tired of the bullshit here.

Well said...especially the last part. Moreover, the European cities that are building LRT lines already have subways/heavy rail as their transportation backbones.

[satishreddy]

{Most decent people don't dare use SkyTrains late at night and SkyTrains are not welcome in Point Grey. They are expensive to build, maintain and police. They are stupid and are leading us to an unsustainable Lower Mainland. The only ones wanting them are developers who will gain from building condos along the SkyTrain routes and the ones whose jobs depend on more regional transit at TransLink.}

This quote made me laugh!

Actually, the ones who want skytrain are the 350000 people who board every day! Many others wish they could take skytrain to their destinations because of the convenience and time saving.

[SpikePhanta]

Has the commenter ever taken the skytrain?
how can it lead to sprawl? Have they seen Brentwood, Metrotown, Joyce, Edmonds?
And not to mention what is planned for Cambie.

[aberdeen5698]

SkyTrains are creating another sprawling Toronto.

The UBC line is probably the ONLY place in Greater Vancouver where you could build rapid transit and NOT encourage sprawl.

[Millennium2002]

I'm guessing she, like many other affluent people in the West End, don't want to see their little share of "paradise" with the huge mansions, sprawling lots, and gas-guzzling cars get destroyed. Truth is, Vancouver wasn't intended to be their paradise, and it never will be. If they wish, they could move elsewhere... and I wouldn't mind that.... The only people that lose out in the end are them.

[jlousa]

People like to overplay that Westsiders don't want rapid transit.
Here is the actual exert from the West Point Grey Vision which was just released and is the only document that really matters. Note 2/3rd supports for skytrain in their backyards.

5.8 Provide Rapid Transit Sevice to UBC
Approved
As part of a longer-term solution, the city should work with Translink to extend rapid transit service to UBC as a means to attract greater ridership and as a sustainable alternative to high frequency bus services.

Percent Approved 65/67

[amor de cosmos]

Rapid transit development on the UBC Broadway corridor, at least as far west as Arbutus,would boost ridership right across the region, city transportation enginner Jerry Dobrovolny told council today.

The corridor already carries 110,000 riders a day on the groaning 99 B-Line and other routes, equal to the Millennium line and more than the proposed Evergreen Line will carry for many years.

Dobrovolny said new analysis emerging from Translink’s study of rapid transit options on the corridor is reinforcing the case for an early decision to build the new Broadway line, along with transit options in Surrey.

More than half the Broadway riders are from outside the city, but more importantly, extension of the Millennium Line at least to Arbutus would build ridership in Burnaby, New Westminster and the Tri Cities, creating regional benefits.

http://www.geoffmeggs.ca/2010/10/05/rapi...ould-boost-ridership-right-across-metro/

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

The UBC line is probably the ONLY place in Greater Vancouver where you could build rapid transit and NOT encourage sprawl.

I wrote this for a comment:

Ok, fine we can put more trolley buses on Broadway, I don't see too much wrong with that especially when the 99 buses are replaced with a Skytrain to UBC. Of course what is not good for Point Grey is perfectly acceptable to Langley? We can't have loud buses in Point Grey but it is ok to have them running through the residential areas in Surrey and Langley. Your argument doesn't make sense on a noise basis. If it is good ok for one area it is ok for another area.

To have B line service with Trolley buses we would need to run a second set of trolley wires in parallel to the other ones as the 99 trolley would need to pass the #9 trolley. This is why we are using diesel buses for the 99.

LRT is inferior to subway/elevated because you can not obtain the separation that would be most beneficial to Broadway. To have LRT (with its own lane) on Broadway would effectively cut car/truck lane capacity down to 1 lane in either direction with some turn lanes and parking if no space is allocated to improving street life/pedestrian/restaurant/cycling space.

[amor de cosmos]

re: these threads
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=175935
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=182237
& especially this link from the first one
http://www.planetizen.com/node/41290

Using Cosmos I counted the number of blocks and intersections in the square mile centred at 104 & King George. Its east/west boundaries are 132 & 140 and north/south are 100 & 108 & got approx. 48 blocks & 80 intersections, which is practically suburban. Cities designed for pedestrians and transit usually have many hundreds. I haven't actually been to Surrey in years so I'm not sure if that's downtown (if Surrey even has a real downtown) but I think it's pretty close.

Using VanMap I got (very) roughly 160 blocks & 198 intersections in the square mile centred at Broadway & Vine (between 1st & 18th and Burrard & MacDonald). Afaik that's pretty typical of the Broadway from Commercial Dr to Point Grey & that part of Surrey around 104 & King George is pretty far from typical for Surrey, even the built-up parts.

[mrjauk]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

I'm guessing she, like many other affluent people in the West End, don't want to see their little share of "paradise" with the huge mansions, sprawling lots, and gas-guzzling cars get destroyed. Truth is, Vancouver wasn't intended to be their paradise, and it never will be. If they wish, they could move elsewhere... and I wouldn't mind that.... The only people that lose out in the end are them.

Don't confuse the West End--beside Stanley Park--with the West Side.

[officedweller]

That's just because the areas used to be farmers fields - akin to the spacing of No. 3 Rd, No. 4 Rd, etc.

It's very difficult to replot lands - I don't think municipalities are as keen to expropriate and impose new street grids the way they did when Vancouver or other cities were master planned. And even Vancouver is trying to calm traffic on resdiential streets between major arteries like Main, Cambie, Oak and Granville.

Both Surrey and Richmond have added streets to their downtowns in an incremental fashion rather than a wholesale imposition of a new grid.

The main issue would be to allow walking paths throughout the suburban residential megablocks to allow people to easily reach the main streets to access transit routes.

[mrjauk]

Originally Posted by amor de cosmos

...More than half the Broadway riders are from outside the city, but more importantly, extension of the Millennium Line at least to Arbutus would build ridership in Burnaby, New Westminster and the Tri Cities, creating regional benefits.

http://www.geoffmeggs.ca/2010/10/05/rapi...ould-boost-ridership-right-across-metro/

And don't forget Surrey. This is what I was talking about when I wrote yesterday that the extension of Skytrain to UBC would have nonlinear systemic effects.

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by amor de cosmos

re: these threads
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=175935
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=182237
& especially this link from the first one
http://www.planetizen.com/node/41290

Using Cosmos I counted the number of blocks and intersections in the square mile centred at 104 & King George. Its east/west boundaries are 132 & 140 and north/south are 100 & 108 & got approx. 48 blocks & 80 intersections, which is practically suburban. Cities designed for pedestrians and transit usually have many hundreds. I haven't actually been to Surrey in years so I'm not sure if that's downtown (if Surrey even has a real downtown) but I think it's pretty close.

Using VanMap I got (very) roughly 160 blocks & 198 intersections in the square mile centred at Broadway & Vine (between 1st & 18th and Burrard & MacDonald). Afaik that's pretty typical of the Broadway from Commercial Dr to Point Grey & that part of Surrey around 104 & King George is pretty far from typical for Surrey, even the built-up parts.

There are big plans for the redevelopment of Surrey which includes the addition of street blocks. Have a look at the links in my earlier post in the Bike/Infrastructure forum. http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=165806&page=33

Originally Posted by tybuilding

I found this link for Walking and Cycling in Surrey City Centre: http://www.civicsurrey.com/2010/06/09/city-centre-green-network-plan-revealed/

It is pretty cool I hope we will see all of that. It will probably take many many years though.

This is what is happening now and for the next 5 years though: http://www.civicsurrey.com/2009/04/12/largest-cycling-investment-in-surreys-history/

and from the Surrey Redevelopment Forum

Originally Posted by Delirium

this was in yesterday's Surrey Now

This will be Surrey in 2075

It's an ambitious plan and if anyone can pull it off, Surrey's mayor can. But are families going to feel safe raising their children among all these high rises?

Beau Simpson, Surrey Now
Published: Friday, March 13, 2009

full article; http://www2.canada.com/surreynow/news/story.html?id=29b85344-d4c4-4dac-a54d-50be618864a0


An artist’s rendering shows what Surrey is projected to look like in 2075.
Photograph by : Bing Thom Architects/For the Now
http://www2.canada.com/surreynow/news/story.html?id=29b85344-d4c4-4dac-a54d-50be618864a0

and in this one you can see the new city blocks:

Originally Posted by Whalleyboy

nope no luck on height
but you will still love me cause i give you more pictures=P

lets have fun and show a gateway one first


















now here is central 2031 in there hope


and this of course everyone knows as 2075


all images are through my photobucket

http://www.surreycitydevelopment.com/pdf/SCDC_Booklet_Feb2010.pdf

[Whalleyboy]

thats such an old pdf file on that site it doesnt even show the proper city hall being built.
but if you'd like to look at more current plans for building look here
http://www.surrey.ca/plans-strategies/1330.aspx

[punface]

The video of the Vancouver City Council meeting yesterday where they discussed the TransLink’s UBC Line Rapid Transit Study report is up on the CoV website: http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20101005/ttra20101005ag.htm

I skipped through it, watching about half the total content. My impression is that everyone is pretty pro-SkyTrain, but not willing to come out and say it at this stage.

Of the four speakers from the public, only one was against SkyTrain, stating it was expensive, causes problems during construction, is not accessible to people with disabilities or strollers, and would not remove road space.

Another speaker had a powerpoint slide which suggested continuing from VCC-Clark to Fraser&Broadway instead of Great Northern Way (seems like a good idea to me.)

Another speaker was a former CoV transportation employee who made a strong case for bored tunnel.

After 1.5 hours of that, it looks like there was a bicycle lane meeting that went all night. You couldn't pay me enough money to get into politics.