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  #1381  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 4:48 PM
DigitalNinja DigitalNinja is offline
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Ugh Got my hopes all up.
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  #1382  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 4:49 PM
beyeas beyeas is offline
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Originally Posted by PoscStudent View Post
Hopefully the current design of the centre isn't used because it's pretty ugly.
I guess we should see later today it sounds like.

Quote:
Centre plans to be unveiled today

ALEX BOUTILIER
METRO HALIFAX
Published: October 06, 2010 1:22 a.m.
Last modified: October 06, 2010 1:30 a.m.

Rank Inc.’s proposal and business plan for a proposed new downtown trade and convention centre will be made public today — a full three months after the developer submitted the information to the province.

The province will hold a technical briefing for media at the World Trade and Convention Centre starting at noon. Nova Scotia’s Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal received the proposal in July.

Minister Bill Estabrooks took the remainder of the summer to look over the document before presenting it to cabinet last month.

Premier Darrell Dexter announced last Thursday the government would release the information early this week.

The announcement came three days after Halifax Chebucto MLA Howard Epstein revealed the developer wanted $160-million for the project from the three levels of government — $57-million from the city, $57-million from the province, and the remaining $46-million from the federal government.

Dexter and Estabrooks have refused to confirm those numbers — although they are widely accepted as the accurate, if not final, figures.

On an interesting note though, the results of the shadow bid were announced today in AllNS, and the result was that Rank came in $90/sqft under the shadow bid. Probably the only interesting and new factoid in that supposed breaking news article (yes I am still grumbling about that LOL)
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  #1383  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 4:50 PM
beyeas beyeas is offline
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Originally Posted by DigitalNinja View Post
Ugh Got my hopes all up.
yeah I know. When I 1st saw the headline it was emailed on my blackberry as just the headline that I posted, which sounded full of promise. It was only when I got to my comp and logged on to AllNS that I realized it was misleading.
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  #1384  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 5:18 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by beyeas View Post
I guess we should see later today it sounds like.

On an interesting note though, the results of the shadow bid were announced today in AllNS, and the result was that Rank came in $90/sqft under the shadow bid. Probably the only interesting and new factoid in that supposed breaking news article (yes I am still grumbling about that LOL)
Based on all the information in the posts today, I can't see the province saying no. A lease of $2.28 million per year just seems too good for the province to refuse. And it came in under their shadow bid - so what would be their excuse for rejecting it? My biggest concern is that Rank Inc. will go bust by building it.
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  #1385  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 5:26 PM
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  #1386  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 6:17 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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People don't seem to understand the economic generation factor of this; beyond just the construction jobs.

Didn't someone post earlier something like 1,200 constructions jobs, full time for the project duration? Well that's one part of it...there is the staff to run it and deal with each function and then the spin off jobs to local restaurants, hotels, retail stores and other spin off's to other economic sectors like rental cars, taxi/limo companies, airlines (flights and capacity).

I honestly don't know how to quantify the spin off jobs, I don't understand how that math works. But certainly the construction jobs alone tilt me in favour of the project; with the caveat I'd like some elements revised on the design.
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  #1387  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 7:22 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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I threw two comments in - both positive. There seems to be more positive than negative comments.
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  #1388  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 8:01 PM
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Details here: http://conventioncentreinfo.com/

Here's one of the new renderings:


Seriously, I don't know how people will be able to live in a city where there's slightly less of a view of the refinery from one arbitrary spot on a nearby hill.

Also, it turns out there's no real loss of view anyway since this development takes up about the same part of the view as the United Gulf towers will.
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  #1389  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 8:08 PM
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Seriously, I don't know how people will be able to live in a city where there's slightly less of a view of the refinery from one arbitrary spot on a nearby hill.
Oh I don't know someone, the flares erupting from the refinery's stacks can be quite pretty on an otherwise drab and misty night on the flank of the citadel.

Seriously, I will be quite disappointed if Dexter gets cold feet on this one.........I await with baited breath.
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  #1390  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 8:09 PM
Phalanx Phalanx is offline
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How dare they obscure my view of the refinery from Citadel Hill... that's a treasured part of our heritage...

On a more serious note... The information they released today seems mostly positive. If they intend to turn it down, they're doing a very poor job of spinning it. I would say the signs are pointing to a go ahead.
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  #1391  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 8:39 PM
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this is the image that cbc has form citadel with the project.



http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2010/10/06/ns-halifax-convention-centre-jobs.html
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  #1392  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 8:46 PM
terrynorthend terrynorthend is offline
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How dare they obscure my view of the refinery from Citadel Hill... that's a treasured part of our heritage...
Well, it was commissioned in 1918.
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  #1393  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 8:55 PM
phrenic phrenic is offline
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Economics and views aside, I'm still utterly disappointed in the design and am worried we're going to end up with essentially a glass scotia square with a street running through the middle.

But with the focus on economics, I swear you'd have to shape the towers like big penises in order to get people to pay attention to the look of the thing.
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  #1394  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 9:12 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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The CBC photo is probably more well done than rank's; the perspective seems wrong.

As I pointed out in my comment on CBC's website - the point of the viewplane that restricts this project the most is to preserve the view from the hill to George's Island. Of course the refinery is incidental and as I pointed out in my posting - the project actually acts to enhance the view by 'covering up' the refinery.
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  #1395  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 9:22 PM
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i was just on the rank site and the cbc photo is there also



https://conventioncentreinfo.com/documents/graphics/
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  #1396  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 9:27 PM
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Originally Posted by phrenic View Post
Economics and views aside, I'm still utterly disappointed in the design and am worried we're going to end up with essentially a glass scotia square with a street running through the middle.
It's not a great design but it won't be as damaging as Scotia Square. Everything above Argyle is already dead, for one thing, and there seems to be some thought given to Argyle itself. I don't know what they plan on putting in the atrium running over Grafton Street but it should be okay since the blocks on either side are relatively successful.
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  #1397  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 9:36 PM
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Nice inflammatory and totally misleading headline in the Herald. Someone there should get their ass kicked for this.

Quote:
New trade centre would cost taxpayers $325 million

By DAVID JACKSON Provincial Reporter | UPDATED 3:51 p.m.
Wed, Oct 6 - 1:39 PM

The proposed new convention centre that's three times bigger than the current one would cost provincial and Halifax regional taxpayers more than $325 million to lease and maintain over 25 years, the province revealed Wednesday.

The cost was part of a briefing on details of Rank Inc.'s proposal that Premier Darrell Dexter promised last week, just days after New Democrat backbencher Howard Epstein leaked the estimated $160-million construction price tag for the convention centre.

There's no up-front cost to the province or city. The two levels of government would pay capital lease costs over 25 years, but those payments wouldn't start until 2014 when the building would be complete. The NDP plan to have Nova Scotia's books balanced by then.

The convention centre is part of a 1.2-million-square-foot development proposed for the former Halifax Herald site in downtown Halifax.

It would include a hotel, office tower, retail space, and a parkade. The convention centre would be underground.

The entire project cost is estimated at up to $500 million, but taxpayers would be involved with only the convention centre portion.

Senior Infrastructure Renewal official Jane Fraser said Wednesday that the total capital cost for the convention centre is $159 million, broken down as $119 million for construction, $21 million for engineering and design, and $19 million for interim financing.

The province wants to share the cost of the project with Halifax Regional Municipality and Ottawa. The split is still a topic for negotiation, if the province gives the project the green light.

Ottawa doesn't cover interim financing costs, Fraser said, so the province hopes it will cover one-third of the construction and design costs, or close to $47 million.

That would cover a payment to Rank in 2014 when the project would be substantially complete.

It would leave the province and city to pay about $57 million each in construction costs. Those would be amortized over 25 years at an estimated rate of 6.98 per cent, putting the cost to those two levels of government at $128 million each for the capital lease.

The province and city would pay another $1.7 million in annual operations and maintenance costs for things like cleaning and security, and $1.2 million annually for facility upgrades.

With lease costs, the total is about $164 million over 25 years, or about $6.6 million annually, for each level of government.

Fraser said the costs would be offset with increased economic activity from more convention centre business. She said there's an estimate of $86 million in direct and spinoff benefits for the province over a 10-year span, not including the impact of repeat visitors.

Scott Ferguson, CEO of Trade Centre Limited, the Crown corporation that operates the convention centre, said current maintenance costs are about $1 million a year. He said Trade Centre revenue would grow to $12 million to $14 million annually in the new building within 10 years from about $6 million now.

About 12,000 jobs will be created if the convention centre is built, government officials claimed today.

One conference of 1,000 delegate would inject $1 million into the provincial economy, if each delegate spent about $1,600 per visit, the government says.

While the Dexter government was boosting the benefits of the new building, it stopped short of saying whether it would OK the development.

Infrastructure Renewal Minister Bill Estabrooks got the proposal in July. He said a month ago that his mind was made up on the project, but some of his cabinet colleagues want more time.

"They would like to have a few more days, weeks, or months so they can feel as comfortable as I do with the information that I received on July 19," said Estabrooks, who won't yet disclose his position on the project.

Estabrooks said approving the project isn't contingent on the books being balanced.

Both opposition parties say they support the new convention centre.

Liberal MLA Andrew Younger said he thinks the Dexter government has already decided to go ahead with the project, and the premier should say he supports it.

"There's risk with every project this government undertakes, and any government undertakes, but certainly, we support this project," Younger said.

The previous Tory government got the process started back in 2007 with a joint call for expressions of interest with the city.

Tory MLA Karen Casey said today that a new convention centre would be a good business decision for the city and province.

"I believe there's enough information, based on what we heard here, and what the government has had through their consultation, that it's now up to the government to make a decision, and to make it sooner, than later," Casey said.

Ferguson reiterated the case for a new convention centre to replace the current one, which opened in 1984.

He said 55 per cent of the facility doesn't meet current industry standards. A consultant's report released in the spring listed shortcomings including low ceilings, inconvenient pillars and small spaces.

Ferguson said a huge drawback is the inability to host more than one convention at a time.

The proposed four-star centre would include 115,000 square feet of rentable convention space, about three times as much as the current one. The new one would have a 35,500 square foot column-free ballroom, 52,000 square feet of multi-purpose space and 28,000 square feet of meeting room space.

The building would meet the gold standard of Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design, an international ranking system.

Ferguson said he's talked to event planners who give Halifax a pass because of the building.

"Our facility is our major barrier to booking business," Ferguson said.

"With a new facility, we will book more business into Halifax and Nova Scotia. Our customers are telling us that they will bring their events to this market if the proper infrastructure is in place."

Fraser's presentation included a panoramic view from two spots on Citadel Hill with the office tower and hotel in place. It showed little to no effect on viewplanes to Halifax Harbour and Georges Island.

But Phillip Pacey, a past-president of the Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia and part of the Save the View Coalition opposing the project, said the image distorted what a tourist would actually see from Citadel Hill.

"We have images ... that show what the impact would be on a standard photograph taken with a regular camera by somebody standing on the Citadel, and it is very devastating," he said.

"When people see that image, they, in great numbers think this is a project that should not be built, even if it were free."

Pacey also said the cost news was even worse than the $160 million Epstein revealed, and the project is too expensive for taxpayers.

Project supporter Cheryl Stewart, chairwoman of Fusion Halifax, a 2,000-member organization of young professionals, said the project would have an impact well beyond just convention business.

"From a progress perspective as a young person, I want to see our city move forward, and I'm looking to see a business case and today I saw further evidence that there's a strong business case for this," said Stewart, manager of entrepreneurship for the Nova Scotia Community College.

Nova Scotians can view highlights of Rank Inc.'s proposal for the project and other information at conventioncentreinfo.com and leave their own comments.
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  #1398  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 9:54 PM
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I find it pretty hard to believe that an average reader of this article gets much out of it. No context is provided as far as what the average WTCC costs to run, what revenues from the projects would be like, and so on. Basically the thrust of the article seems to be "convention centre will cost many millions! time to start freaking out!"

Where is Bruce "I'm not sure what the question is, but the answer is no" Devenne?

It is also fundamentally dishonest to include things like operating costs in the "price tag" of a building. When somebody tells you how much it cost them to build their house they do not include the cost of electricity and heating bills for the next 25 years.

But it seems to be acceptable to tell the public whatever you want as long as it serves your interests - the dishonest "Save the View" approach.
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  #1399  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 10:10 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Is it me, or did anyone notice that Phil Pacey is now past president of the Heritage Trust? According to their website, Peter Delefes is now the president.

Also find it interesting that they have 'normal photos'. I must say when someone123 put up the first rank photo, you couldn't see George's island at all - which was the whole point of the viewplane protection. The second, clearly shows it (the one CBC used). Their "block drawings" are completely inacurate and don't take into account building orientation at all.
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  #1400  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 11:22 PM
Phalanx Phalanx is offline
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Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
Is it me, or did anyone notice that Phil Pacey is now past president of the Heritage Trust? According to their website, Peter Delefes is now the president.
(...)
It was mentioned in another thread awhile back. I remember people being pleasantly surprised when he openly, if tentatively, supported the Fenwick redevelopment (I think that was the one, anyway).
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