Halifax Stadium Discussion

[brettinhalifax]

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[brettinhalifax]

account deleted

[halifaxboyns]

Now you guys see how much fun it can sometimes be in doing the job of a planner! The only agreement on the issue is that a stadium is needed - where it goes; no agreement.

It's not easy to get agreement on something like this - let alone anything sometimes.

Maybe we're approaching this the wrong way. We each have our favorite sites in HRM. Some of us agree with others; some have sites where they may be the only ones in favour. Would it work for us to come up with a list of the pro's and con's ourselves - then put them on here and I will record them and then we come back to it? Or am I just beating a dead horse?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

Mainland Commons is not a realistic site. It is one thing to bulldoze 7 acres of the commons to build a stadium, but what about parking? 29 more acres bulldozed for surface parking? Not a chance.

Then the Bayers Lake area and Shannon Park are two that might be acceptable. Even Dartmouth Crossings might not be too bad if you want a surburban location.

If you can't get people to accept Woodside then what is your second choice?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

The Ex Park locale currently has one lane in and one out....thats not gonna cut it so...lots of work needed there and one would need easy access off the highways....at EP that not so easy.....

I don't mind people advocating for their favorite (albeit suboptimal) sites, but when you do, please use facts. What obstacles are there to widening the access to EP? Trees? Meanwhile, Shannon is hamstrung with a bridge that is already overburdened at peak times, has a single-lane access ramp, and has surface access streets, not roads, that do not connect directly to any major highways.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

The more I think about this, the more i'm slanting to putting it suburban simply for the sake of just getting it built.

Smart move. That means Exhibition Park.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by -Harlington-

this was the post that i made awhile back, its not the best depiction but if someone wants to try a better one with maybe parking and green space that would be cool.
but this is the area i was referring to, and i thought this was a great location.

That is way too tight and has no ability to provide adequate parking. With Ex Park right across the road I dunno why you would even bother with this site.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The only ones that seem to be somewhat acceptable to the majority are the Halifax Mainland Commons and Shannon Park.

What are you talking about? The Mainland Commons is not going to be razed for a stadium. Full stop. As for Shannon Park, it is a terrible site. You are dooming it to failure by requiring 70% of the potential customers to get there using the already over-capacity MacKay Bridge -- just imagine the Windsor St Exchange on game day -- or Magazine Hill/Windmill Road, which is a nightmare. You can forget about ferries or rail at that site too. It is just a very bad site.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

What are you talking about? The Mainland Commons is not going to be razed for a stadium. Full stop. As for Shannon Park, it is a terrible site. You are dooming it to failure by requiring 70% of the potential customers to get there using the already over-capacity MacKay Bridge -- just imagine the Windsor St Exchange on game day -- or Magazine Hill/Windmill Road, which is a nightmare. You can forget about ferries or rail at that site too. It is just a very bad site.

I think a central location on the peninsula is the best choice - I get blasted when I stated my real viewpoint so now I have switched to the sub-optimal ones. The Halifax Commons location for large concerts and the success of Metro Centre events both indicate that an urban location is the best location. SMU Huskies Stadium is also a successful venue with very little parking available.

I actually mentioned the DND site next to the Atlantic Superstore when I went to city hall in January 2010 and it wasn't met with any opposition from the councillors which included Councillor Blumenthal. Councillor Jerry Blumenthal is even on record mentioning the DND Willow Park site (which is in his district) - he didn't seem to object to the location, he just questioned whether or not DND wanted to give it up. (source: in a conversation with Dylan Matthias - Dalhousie Gazette). Councillor Jennifer Watts was also in attendance and didn't seem to object.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Smart move. That means Exhibition Park.

No it doesn't. It means that it's an option to consider. We've mentioned Dartmouth Crossing or in Burnside, Bayer's Lake and that quarry site on the 102 by Kearney Lake. All of which have potential.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

No it doesn't. It means that it's an option to consider. We've mentioned Dartmouth Crossing or in Burnside, Bayer's Lake and that quarry site on the 102 by Kearney Lake. All of which have potential.

I am in somewhat of agreement - the Dartmouth Crossings area looks like a very nice area. If a stadium could make use of existing parking in Dartmouth Crossings/Burnside area then it would cut down on parking requirements so that more of a budgeted amount could go towards the actual stadium (I think that only office areas can be considered for parking since retail will be in use during most events). This is the general area - http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=44.69532175402315~-63.55403622781512&lvl=14&sty=h. Because of all the existing parking and amenities, I feel that this is a better site than Shannon Park. Another possibility is the Bayers Lake area (maybe even in the vicinity of the deep quarry, just not in it) - http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=44.64608752825518~-63.66274993985729&lvl=14&sty=h . This appears to be a fast growing area (based on numbers by ATL Stadium).

Somebody previously mentioned this area which is close to Burnside and Dartmouth Crossings (it looks quite good) - http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=44.703168707365805~-63.57543264072558&lvl=16&sty=h . This area is probably owned by the municipality but it has power transmission towers passing through to the north (this will likely impose limitations on the usable acreage) - http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=rfhmtr9...ore%20Dr%2C%20Dartmouth%2C%20NS%2C%20B3B . Here is how the Cardiff City Stadium (drawn by dizzyHARSH) would look in this area.



Another option is to build a stadium with the ends open so that it can be expanded for special events. The conceptual image that I drew below would seat 31,000 (which is probably too many seats). But if the end zone seats were not built but just have grassy knolls in those areas then it would seat about 28,000. Such a configuration would make it similar to the InfoCision Stadium in Akron, Ohio except with a roof (but no large media tower). Wheelchair areas would be between the lower and upper tier. Luxury suites could also be added in that area in the future.



The conceptual model above is loosely based on this InfoCision Stadium in Akron, Ohio below but with a roof similar to the Swansea Liberty Stadium. It would have to be longer to accommodate Canadian football (as in the conceptual model). I like both of the above concepts - the Cardiff City Stadium has more shelter from the wind and rain, but a stadium with the ends open will offer more flexibility for expansion.

(source: )

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

As for Shannon Park, it is a terrible site. You are dooming it to failure by requiring 70% of the potential customers to get there using the already over-capacity MacKay Bridge -- just imagine the Windsor St Exchange on game day -- or Magazine Hill/Windmill Road, which is a nightmare. You can forget about ferries or rail at that site too. It is just a very bad site.

You do realize the vast majority of football games are either going to be on the weekend (no rush hour on the weekend that I'm aware of) or Friday night, long after rush hour has ended. Don't forget, rush hour typically starts and ends earlier in the day on Fridays. The site is right next to a four lane highway. How can it be any more convenient?

I know you've got a thing against Dartmouth Keith, but for goodness sakes at least try and come up with some half decent arguments against the site - such as the already mentioned difficulties in dealing with Canada Lands Corp, and the required site remediation before anything could be built.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I am in somewhat of agreement - the Dartmouth Crossings area looks like a very nice area.

One benefit of Dartmouth Crossing, which others have touched on, is the availability of hotels, restaursnts - and bars. There's already Jack Astors, Boston Pizza, Montanas and Moxies, which all have bars. I wouldn't be surprised if a couple similar restaurants with bars opened up as well.

[David1gray]

shannon park may be beside the 111 but there are only two roads in and out(three if baffin blvd was connected to a parking area). and in order to get onto that highway you have to go back up to where the toll booths are. and the dealing with canada lands corp.

i agree with the other comments about DC. hotels, area to build some more, availability of roads out(118, wright ave. commordore dr.) all of which are 4 lanes. food/bars near by, shopping, etc.

each site has there pros and cons but the one chosen should have alot more going for it then against it!

[brettinhalifax]

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[halifaxboyns]

From my perspective; I'd look at is the land easy to acquire and could accommodate the stadium, an expansion, parking and bus facilities.

Because of the fact that Moncton got the CFL game and it looks like more things could happen - for the sake of expendiency, my thought was mainly a suburban location because you could take raw land and just build it and get it done.

That being said, if Moncton hadn't been so successful in getting the CFL and we had time then I'd want to go through a full review of many sites in HRM (including CFB Windsor) to see about acquiring the land; because if the time was available (not a rush issue); then you could do a whole grand redevelopment scheme for an area and have the stadium for a major piece. I don't think that's necessairily an option at this point?

Shannon would be a spot where a redevelopment scheme could be done that incorporated the stadium as a major component, the transportation issues could be resolved with that scheme.

However, if we are trying to take advantage of public reaction to Moncton's success, then I'm guessing greenfield would be where it would go, simply to make the selection process simple and the development time less (since you wouldn't have to do any reclamation or all the work you would do with brownfield sites).

Btw, I did some scaling of distances and the only place that would end up being equi-distant to everything would be in the middle of the harbour. So i'm all for a new man-made island in the middle of the basin.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

That being said, if Moncton hadn't been so successful in getting the CFL and we had time then I'd want to go through a full review of many sites in HRM (including CFB Windsor) to see about acquiring the land; because if the time was available (not a rush issue); then you could do a whole grand redevelopment scheme for an area and have the stadium for a major piece. I don't think that's necessairily an option at this point?

If there were a reasonably certain plan for a real stadium in Halifax I don't think the time line would matter much. It would be a stupid move for the CFL to jump the gun and start a marginal team in Moncton if there is the possibility of a team in Halifax. Having two CFL teams 2.5 hours apart is a real stretch, especially when one of the cities has 130,000 people or so. Choosing the 130,000 city is also very silly when there's a 400,000 city nearby. The difference between Halifax and Moncton as potential CFL markets is huge.

Moncton didn't get a CFL team, they had a single game played in a minimalist $20M stadium with a track. A $20M stadium could be built immediately in Halifax as well but would be pointless.

[fenwick16]

I think this John Savage Drive/Commodore Drive area has a lot of potential as a stadium site. Does anyone know what the land use regulations are for under these power transmission lines - http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=44.7046499221378~-63.57761900447605&lvl=18&sty=h ? The land under the transmission lines is likely cheap land and would be useful to satisfy part of the parking requirements - if permitted for such use (I assume that the land directly under the transmission lines is owned by NS Power). When I visually follow the power lines on the map, there are highways and even parking areas that the lines cross over - so this might be a permitted use. It certainly would be an advantage to have cheap land for parking so as to maximize the amount available for a stadium.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I think this John Savage Drive/Commodore Drive area has a lot of potential as a stadium site. Does anyone know what the land use regulations are for under these power transmission lines - http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=44.7046499221378~-63.57761900447605&lvl=18&sty=h ? The land under the transmission lines is likely cheap land and would be useful to satisfy part of the parking requirements - if permitted for such use (I assume that the land directly under the transmission lines is owned by NS Power). When I visually follow the power lines on the map, there are highways and even parking areas that the lines cross over - so this might be a permitted use. It certainly would be an advantage to have cheap land for parking so as to maximize the amount available for a stadium.

If my memory serves me; NSP's rules is that they don't like to have buildings taller than 2 stories under the lines (if at all) - so you'd be restricted probably to just parking. The land the power lines is on would be owned by HRM (since it's probably not sold off as part of development for the park), but it would be in an easement on the land, registed on title. So a building could not cross the easement (typically). The easement would give NSP the right to maintenance those lines in the easement and probably gain access to the easement through adjacent parcels.

Perhaps the area across the street which doesn't have the power lines would work better?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

If my memory serves me; NSP's rules is that they don't like to have buildings taller than 2 stories under the lines (if at all) - so you'd be restricted probably to just parking. The land the power lines is on would be owned by HRM (since it's probably not sold off as part of development for the park), but it would be in an easement on the land, registed on title. So a building could not cross the easement (typically). The easement would give NSP the right to maintenance those lines in the easement and probably gain access to the easement through adjacent parcels.

Perhaps the area across the street which doesn't have the power lines would work better?

There would be enough room for the stadium at that location. Having cheap land available for surface parking is a bonus since the land under the transmission lines can't be used for much else.

PS: I think that the stadium would need to be turned 90 degrees though (referring to the images above).