Halifax Stadium Discussion

[halifaxboyns]

Brett> Don't forget that HRM is taking RFP's for a fourth harbour ferry; so from what I've read the 4th ferry would be going to woodside (I believe in anticipation of full day service).

So if the ferry were located at Woodside; there could be 2 ferries running back and forth.

KeithP> I was under the impression that Canada Lands Corp owned shannon park, at least that's what wiki is saying? But I take that for what it's worth, not gospel.

Looking at exhibition park - it is a reasonable spot because it's big, could provide parking and as you've mentioned Keith, the access routes can be upgraded. My difficulty is with how (typically) stadiums are treated, usually as significant iconic buildings. Metro Centre is no prize, let's face it. But in many cities, stadiums of various kinds are built as iconic (usually well designed) buildings that add to the landscape. The reason I fall in with the group for Shannon is that if a stadium were to be included, it could be a really iconic building seen from the harbour and the bridges, if any residential and mixed use in front of it (close to the waters edge) were low enough that the stadium was higher.

I think at this point, we can argue in circles about the issue and never agree. So I'm going to suggest this: There are some of us who believe shannon is good, some who seem in favour of exhibition park and some who favour other sites (CFB windsor). Perhaps if we put a list of sites together this way; it might appease everyone:

Shannon Park
Pro's:

• Reasonably close to Peninsula Halifax, Mainland Halifax.
• Good access for Dartmouth residents (via circ).
• Bedford residents can access sight from Highway 7 or across the McKay Bridge.
• Existing municipal services on site.
• Significant sized land can accommodate multiple uses (residential, mixed use, etc).

Con's:

• Transportation network would require upgrading (road size increase, new bus routes, potential high speed ferry terminal).
• Existing municipal services may require upgrading if site redeveloped with significant residential component.
• Site may require some environmental remediation.
• Site not easily accessible for residents coming from 101 and 103.

Exhibition Park:
Pro's:

• Significant sized parcel - can fit large stadium, ample room for surface parking.
• Location easily accessible to residents from 103, Halifax Mainland, Halifax Peninsula.
• Residents from Bedford/Sackville can access via 102 and then 103.
• Close proximity to bus garage can mean easy deployment of transit during event activities.

Con's:

• Existing road network would require upgrading (one lane access from 103 interchange and Bay Road);
• No municipal services to the site - expensive to extend.
• Dartmouth residents will have to cross cut over McKay or MacDonald to access site (longer drive).

That's all I could think of in short notice; but I'd like to start compiling a list like this; because we should come up with a short list of 4 to 5 sites. This way even if we can't come up with $ figures; we still have the issues listed.

[brettinhalifax]

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[brettinhalifax]

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[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

The vista goes hand in hand with wind and fog. And as to it being owned by Canada Lands, well, IMO it would be a lot easier to buy land from a private corporation or from an HRM industrial park than from that crown corporation. In addition, there is potentially environmental remediation required (asbestos, lead, contaminated soil, etc.) from the decades of DND activity.

But as to the location, for anyone taking the MacKay bridge, a Dartmouth Crossing/Burnside location would only be 2 minutes further, and Woodside is only 6 minutes further. For anyone in Halifax that would take the MacDonald Bridge, it is no closer than Woodside or Burnside.

Brett
Canada Lands could fall into the project more easily than a private landowner.....at least the crown corp might even have some direction to gift the land to the project.....as for the DND remediation issues....other than the rink....the area was largely residential and should pose no greater risk than other site might....I do like the Shannon site. I'm not shutting any doors on other sites.....I just think imo it should be pretty close to the top of the list....

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but all this discussion shows that many of you just don't get it. Dartmouth is out because the harbour is a barrier to the majority of customers. Shannon is not a good site and has huge complexities in obtaining the land and making it ready. Woodside is even worse. Everything beyond Kearney Lake Rd is too far away from the bulk of the populace. Windsor Park has similar complexities as Shannon and may be too tight. It's got to be Exhibition Park.

Lets get a satellite pic and plunk down a stadium to see how it works.

I think the complexities of Shannon are being overstated....I believe the site can be obtained easily and the remediation would be little.....it was largely residential....no toxic dump site or anything....
I think access from Halifax is good via McKay and Bedford/Sackville/Windsor via Magazine Hill 101 also can be fairly easy from the airport...certainly Dartmouth would be pleased.....
I think it is a good site.....and looking right up the Harbour at downtown.

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Based on these numbers the Woodside location would look good. I have to admit that Woodside would have as good of bus transit as Shannon Park and it already has a direct ferry to downtown Halifax. Maybe I was wrong to criticize the Woodside location. It would certainly have a good view of Halifax. I wonder if one ferry could be shifted from the downtown Dartmouth route for events so that there would be two ferries crossing to Woodside. What would be the capacity if each ferry could cross 4 times per hour? I don't know the ferry capacities (300 seems to pop into my head but I am not sure - that would mean 2400 per hour for two ferries, which is not too bad - if there were a way to increase that number then it would be even more attractive)

I am not trying to argue, but the Metro Centre was built without dedicated parking so couldn't an exception be made in Halifax? The link was for Dartmouth. Do you have it for Halifax also?

Personally, I prefer Woodside over Shannon Park since the transit connection are as good or better and the view of Halifax would be much better. It also has good highway access. If the transit connections were sufficient then it might even be better than the DND site.

I'm not sure what parcel of land is there that is proposed.....??
Woodside is pretty much on the farthest end of the circumferential Hwy....bus access could go there but boy that is gonna along ride and pretty much everyone is gonna have to take it....as for the ferry.....the new one is basically to service the students at NSCC campus there....guess it would kind of nifty but hey lets not forget only 16% of the HRM population even live on the peninsula.....
I have kind of stuck to Shannon or along the 102,,,,,,,as being the most appealing and accessible..... I guess Exhibition Park could work....but its got that stuck out of the way kind of feeling....why hide it.....??

[Jstaleness]

I'm not sure Shannon Park would cause much more of an issue traffic wise than current morning and evening traffic does. The main issue would be getting the cars out of the stadium parking and onto highways. Dartmouth might not be to bad because a dedicated ramp might be able to be built to run up over Princess Margaret and join where the Victoria Rd. exit sits. Halifax bound traffic would be way harder as there is only one rd. available and all it feeds into is the damn toll booth. I think that between 111 and route 7 and of course dedicated transit that it could work really well. I should add that there is existing rail lines in that area that go all they way to autoport. A train with stops in Woodside and Alderney could carry hundreds of passengers to the games and events. Ferry shuttle from downtown and hopefully one from Bedford could also help lesson the load.
What about discount ticket prices for people that used public transit. Other cities must do that? Its win win. Save on ticket cost and no parking cost.

[halifaxboyns]

Well I agree with the comment earlier that EP would be an easier site from the perspective of no nimby; big site to develop so parking could be easily provided. But that doesn't mean it's the right site because there are other issues such as extending municipal services, things like that.

As to not affording an iconic stadium; well - I would hope that would do it without the need of huge costs. Iconic can mean many things; a reasonable design that features lights or other major design features that make it stand out compared to the landscape. So the height of the building compared to surrounding development can help with that concept.

Industrial sites that are sold by HRM also provide easy sites because as the landowner, it's a matter of transfering money from one budget to another (it's probably not that simple, but you get what I mean). But my caution is that just because it's easy; doesn't mean it may work well in the long run.

But the transportation issue has to be a key thing, at least in my mind and it seems to be echoed to a lot of people. It's not just about is there a big enough parking lot, but can people who don't use cars get to the site easily? EP is interesting because it's down the road from the new ragged lake transit facility and so transit could be deployed out to various sites, complete their runs to the stadium for the game start and then go back to the garage to await the end of the game. I see that as a big plus - but that's not to say that the same wouldn't be the case for Shannon Park or in Woodside (since the Dartmouth garage isn't far away either).

SP and Woodside have the benefit of either an existing ferry or potential location for a ferry. The same would be the case for out by the 4 pad rink; the proposed high speed ferry to Bedford could be further encouraged if the stadium is there and then shuttle buses to and from the ferry (as well as key transit stations throughout HRM like Penhorn, West End Mall, Bridge Terminal etc.). So each site has interesting challenges and benefits. That's why I'm suggesting that rather than fight about what one site we should support, let's try to narrow it down to say 5 sites and come up with a definitive list of pros and cons?

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I agree completely Fenwick. I never understood why they built Exhibition Park where they did. Things that pop into my mind in trying to describe this location include adjectives such as "lonely, remote, desolate, isolated and barren".

The Exhibition Park site might be cheap but I don't think that's what you want when you're thinking of a regional stadium.

Moncton guy....
Exhibition Park was put there for a reason.....it originally and still does....host the Atlantic Winter Fair......cows, horses, oxen, pigs,sheep, all that stuff plus rides and games.....the Bill Lynch stuff....so one needs to haul trailers and park em..plus the animal smell./feed/ water/waste..all of which used to be at the forum site (no parking on the peninsula).........imagine!

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

I'm not sure Shannon Park would cause much more of an issue traffic wise than current morning and evening traffic does. The main issue would be getting the cars out of the stadium parking and onto highways. Dartmouth might not be to bad because a dedicated ramp might be able to be built to run up over Princess Margaret and join where the Victoria Rd. exit sits. Halifax bound traffic would be way harder as there is only one rd. available and all it feeds into is the damn toll booth. I think that between 111 and route 7 and of course dedicated transit that it could work really well. I should add that there is existing rail lines in that area that go all they way to autoport. A train with stops in Woodside and Alderney could carry hundreds of passengers to the games and events. Ferry shuttle from downtown and hopefully one from Bedford could also help lesson the load.
What about discount ticket prices for people that used public transit. Other cities must do that? Its win win. Save on ticket cost and no parking cost.

There is an existing ramp on to the Highway from Princess Marg Blvd....also an off/on ramp from the bridge directly to Princess Marg Blvd. Its true you could/should ad more and wider...specially heading to Bedford areas...one would need to work on Windmill Rd access to Victoria into Bunrside etc etc.and the cric....but it already there.

Winnipeg uses transit to Bomber games.....day game ticket is free pass....

[ATL Stadium]

Here are my picks.....so far.....

1. Shannon Park.

2. Quarry along 102

3. Mainland Commons

4. Where new 113 will connect to 102

5. Exhibition Park

6. Dartmouth Crossing at 118 hwy

7. Windsor Pk/ Forum site

[Jstaleness]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

There is an existing ramp on to the Highway from Princess Marg Blvd....also an off/on ramp from the bridge directly to Princess Marg Blvd. Its true you could/should ad more and wider...specially heading to Bedford areas...one would need to work on Windmill Rd access to Victoria into Bunrside etc etc.and the cric....but it already there.

Winnipeg uses transit to Bomber games.....day game ticket is free pass....

I'm aware that the ramps are already there. The issue I see with them though is volume. They were never meant to take that much traffic at one time from one location. Can you imagine at least 200-300 cars trying to feed on that stupid question mark on ramp that runs from Princess Margaret to 111. It would need to be a priority lane similar to what Victoria Rd has going down onto the 111 by Gallery One. A dedicated lane that runs for quite a few meters allowing the traffic to flow into their proper lanes.

[halifaxboyns]

So now that we're talking about traffic and access; perhaps we should probably look at things (my suggestion) this way:

1. Location;
2. Site servicing (expansion of existing services, need new services, etc);
3. Access, transportation and transit;
4. Design, size, capacity;
5. Revenue opportunities (to reduce costs).

I tried to group them in similar themes, to focus people on a main concept.
Revenue opportunities (beyond the games) would be selling space on the building or in the parking lots for advertising, banners in the stadium and naming rights.

So maybe we could pick our favorite site and provide our thoughts on this issue and then we record it? I'd be willing to document it into one big spreadsheet.

[Keith P.]

I do not know this for certain, but I cannot believe the Exhibition Park is not already serviced. How do they hold large public events there if not? I see no porta-potties and have used the facilities. I doubt they are using a massive septic system.

As for ATL Stadium's poll, this is not about picking a favorite site. This is about getting a stadium built quickly for the least cost. If you have ever dealt with Canada Lands you know that is not an easy or cheap process. There are also native land claims on Shannon Park that the CWG bid was preparing to deal with that would emerge again should a stadium be proposed.

EP is the spot.

[brettinhalifax]

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[brettinhalifax]

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[fenwick16]

One con about the Exhibition Park is that it seems to be surrounded by the Long Lake Provincial Park. So there won't be much development in that area. (Maybe I am wrong since I don't know this area very well). It seems as though a stadium in that area will always be in a desolate area where it won't be seen.

I seem to have a different idea of an ideal location for a stadium. To me, an urban setting is an exciting location for a stadium (like the Rogers Centre in Toronto). Isolated areas give me a sinking feeling in my stomach (I don't know a better way to describe it). Maybe it comes from living in the Toronto area for so long. I like the hustle and bustle of cities (for special events). To me, having a stadium near a large city adds to the event ambiance because of the hustle and bustle of being in a city.

[brettinhalifax]

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[someone123]

Exhibition Park would definitely need transportation upgrades. Not sure what the status is of other land in that area. For example, right by the 102 and NW Arm Dr there's some land outside of the Long Lake conservation area. Don't know about grades on these sites but some of them are very visible and have great views.

Shannon Park was originally proposed as a site that would also be served by a new ferry to Bedford. Woodside to me seems like a terrible site. It would be better with a third crossing but that doesn't exist.

Iconic stadiums are fine but you need to have a budget. I also don't necessarily find that some of the elaborate ones look much better - the big O never appealed very much to me, whereas some of the old stadiums in the US are very appealing despite not having a lot of frills.

[fenwick16]

I think that for Woodside to be attractive, a stadium should be build close to the ferry terminal and overlooking the Halifax skyline. This would give it a visual connection to the city. I don't know if there is enough land available in Woodside with those attributes.