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  #8981  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2010, 4:15 PM
Wyku Wyku is offline
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One word...disgusting. I really think the city needs to focus heavily on alternative transportation or they are going to have a HUGE mess to clean up when the city actually becomes larger.
Just remember that cars don't drive themselves so regardless of how many cars there are in the city, there's still only a certain amount of the population actually driving at one time.
     
     
  #8982  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2010, 5:31 PM
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Similarly, I have hundreds of 🞵🞵🞵🞵, but I can only wield two at a time, so...
     
     
  #8983  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2010, 7:23 PM
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Gil Penalosa Lecture

Noticed this hasn't been brought up on this board yet.

In the vein of the Jan Gehl lecture last year, Gil Penalsoa will be here next Thursday (Sept 30th), 7pm, at the Roxy Theatre for a Liveable Saskatoon lecture. Tickets are available (here) for $15. There will also be a bike valet on the old Barry Hotel site for those who want to bike down and a reception afterwards.

Should be a good night

     
     
  #8984  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2010, 10:20 PM
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Just remember that cars don't drive themselves so regardless of how many cars there are in the city, there's still only a certain amount of the population actually driving at one time.
There's 4 in my family, two of whom don't drive as they're just kids. We have two cars. If this is the situation of a bunch of families, who's skewing the average in the other direction? Are there many people in the city that hoard cars?
     
     
  #8985  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2010, 10:24 PM
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Why so many people coming out to complain about 25th St extension only now, once the alignment choice has been narrowed down and negotiations are finally out of the way with the railroad? Didn't they see this coming?

What's to be done about Idylwyld's congestion on the best of days? I suspect this turns into a classic traffic management problem - to squeeze the most cars you can onto Idylwyld and get them where they need to go.

I also don't think that this new alignment will bring that much more cars onto Idylwyld. Anybody that would take that route is currently grumbling as they go one block over to 24th and get on there. These people will just have more convenient access.
     
     
  #8986  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2010, 11:23 PM
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I just find cars to be the downfall of modern society. They don't really benefit anyone. It just promotes expansion in the wrong direction. Don't get this confused with transportation etc. I just think that if cities never invested in cars we would be in a much better place ie. very efficient transit and density to accomodate it. A rail system that efficiently transports people from place to place
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  #8987  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2010, 1:32 AM
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There's 4 in my family, two of whom don't drive as they're just kids. We have two cars. If this is the situation of a bunch of families, who's skewing the average in the other direction? Are there many people in the city that hoard cars?
Hoarding cars -- great expression! The article is kind of misleading in that regard, as it indicated the number of registered vehicles includes motorcycles and recreational vehicles. Both of those would have negligible impacts on our road infrastructure. Changing demographics certainly explains part of the trend. I am curious as to how much of an impact the boomer population will have on our transportation system. We are already seeing shifts in the housing market with boomers downsizing from detached dwellings to condos. The next trend may be fewer or a stabilized number of automobiles (relative to pop.)...actually, I think that is the forecast IIRC.

The 65+ cohort has less disposable income than their children. So the car may be viewed as more of a luxury, especially if they are choosing to spend their golden years in areas with adequate public transit. Just another nail in the coffin for car culture...so much uncertainty though, especially with respect to car use among my generation.

I think the upcoming community visioning initiative will allay my fears, or perhaps it will do the opposite. Beyond input received through extensive public consultation, questions will remain on how deep, and how quick the plan should direct the municipal policy process.
     
     
  #8988  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2010, 3:06 AM
socialisthorde socialisthorde is offline
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News on the FNUC building. Meridian has an offer to purchase pending zoning change, with Affinity head office to be the tennant. They are proposing re-use of the existing building with a vertical addition and intend to either provide amenities (i.e. park space) for the community or sell the extra land to the city for same. I am confident in Meridian for the design and it sounds like Affinity is really community minded, including support for alternative transportation. Only drawback is that the city has minimum parking requirements based on sf. Give people a choice between a bike loccker, a bus pass or a parking spot, and which do you think they will take? So again cars will take up a large part of the parcel and the stream of suburbanites through the core will grow. All hail the automobile
     
     
  #8989  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2010, 3:11 AM
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Affinity? That is a surprise, a welcome one I suppose. I assume they'll continue operating out of their downtown offices as well...
     
     
  #8990  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2010, 3:30 AM
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Originally Posted by kgc087 View Post
I just find cars to be the downfall of modern society. They don't really benefit anyone. It just promotes expansion in the wrong direction. Don't get this confused with transportation etc. I just think that if cities never invested in cars we would be in a much better place ie. very efficient transit and density to accomodate it. A rail system that efficiently transports people from place to place
Get over the car hate. Nothing has brought more freedom and mobility than the car. That is why every teen wants one. If you want to live in a city with no cars, you can always move to Pyongyang, North Korea. Quit romanticizing the Dark Ages.
     
     
  #8991  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2010, 4:00 AM
socialisthorde socialisthorde is offline
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Get over the car hate. Nothing has brought more freedom and mobility than the car. That is why every teen wants one. If you want to live in a city with no cars, you can always move to Pyongyang, North Korea. Quit romanticizing the Dark Ages.
Perhaps, but their time is now past. Stone tools were great in their time too. Cars have reached a point where they do more damage than good, in the "two for every houshold" form anyway. Certainly we will never do away with every car, but we sure don't need two in every driveway, and most households shouldn't even need one, and wouldn't if we designed cities and public transportation better.

BTW, what most teenagers want is no indication of what the world needs. When I was a teenager, I couldn't see past the end of my d*ck. I haven't met a whole lot of teenagers who are any more enlightened. We are not designed to be long term thinkers at that age.

Quit romanticising the auto age.
     
     
  #8992  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2010, 5:00 AM
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I have no doubt that Meridian would do a fine job with the FNUC building, but could we save the head office jobs for downtown?? I know of a nice project named 275 second that would maybe get off the ground with this type of tenant. Reminds me about Cameco.
     
     
  #8993  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2010, 5:12 AM
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Originally Posted by socialisthorde View Post
Certainly we will never do away with every car, but we sure don't need two in every driveway, and most households shouldn't even need one
I don't know what kind of 🞵🞵🞵🞵 you are smoking, but try saying this to a dual income family with a bunch of kids and all the activities that go along with it. You wouldn't catch me sitting in some frigid bus shelter at 6am with my kids so I can get them to preschool/daycare (transferring about 3 times), then the same thing on the way home. Then hop on the bus in the evening for swimming / hockey / soccer etc. Call me old school, but with all this stuff going on - I am going to use the easiest/quickest mode of transportation I can. I believe better transit options are good for some people - but not all.
     
     
  #8994  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2010, 5:41 AM
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Originally Posted by swilley View Post
I don't know what kind of 🞵🞵🞵🞵 you are smoking, but try saying this to a dual income family with a bunch of kids and all the activities that go along with it. You wouldn't catch me sitting in some frigid bus shelter at 6am with my kids so I can get them to preschool/daycare (transferring about 3 times), then the same thing on the way home. Then hop on the bus in the evening for swimming / hockey / soccer etc. Call me old school, but with all this stuff going on - I am going to use the easiest/quickest mode of transportation I can. I believe better transit options are good for some people - but not all.
You and xtooner best be careful in admitting your appreciation of automobiles in this forum. Unfortunately, what is supposed to be a Saskatoon Construction forum seems to have taken a turn into sociology forum intent largely on advising us unwashed masses that we are morally inferior to the latte-drinking, vegan car-haters that tend to populate this thread.

Obviously, the # of vehicles owned by an individual is irrelevant when discussing environmental damage caused by driving as, try as I might, I am only able to drive one vehicle at a time. Rather, this statistic of over one registered vehicle per Saskatonian is a reflection of the prosperity of our fine city. To me, this is a good thing.

Enough ranting and contributing to the non-construction focus of this thread. In case anyone hadn't heard, Construction Management proposals are due next Friday for Lighthouse Supported Living's 9-storey addition to their existing facility at 20th St & 2nd Ave (the old Capri hotel). The new tower will be built on the parking lot east of the Capri (next to AODBT's old office) and will not actually be connected to the existing bldg, except at the main floor. Construction should be underway by the end of 2010 and completed in early 2012.
     
     
  #8995  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2010, 7:47 AM
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I think socialisthorde and swilley are approaching the topic from two very different extremes. There is a middle ground that can be imagined and attained that does not include one car for every family, or waiting in frigid bus shelters and transferring buses three times.

The reality is the efficiency and cost of providing civic services -- transit, swimming pools, parks, libraries, fire and police -- depends almost entirely on how masterfully we can intensify land uses. Land use planning before transportation planning, although in the end, they are a feedback loop and should not be discussed independently of one another.

Where is the utopian ideal of an affordable, efficient, less car lifestyle to be found in Saskatoon? The Broadway area comes close, but it is still weighted towards the car. Same can be said of Downtown, and City Park. The College Quarter plan is a beacon of hope. And there is great potential for several pedestrian oriented neighborhoods to emerge throughout the city, but those are all decades away from maturity.

It's been awhile since the thread felt this cozy, feels kind of nice
     
     
  #8996  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2010, 2:20 PM
socialisthorde socialisthorde is offline
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Originally Posted by swilley View Post
I don't know what kind of 🞵🞵🞵🞵 you are smoking, but try saying this to a dual income family with a bunch of kids and all the activities that go along with it. You wouldn't catch me sitting in some frigid bus shelter at 6am with my kids so I can get them to preschool/daycare (transferring about 3 times), then the same thing on the way home. Then hop on the bus in the evening for swimming / hockey / soccer etc. Call me old school, but with all this stuff going on - I am going to use the easiest/quickest mode of transportation I can. I believe better transit options are good for some people - but not all.
I quit smoking that stuff when I was a teenager and I am just what you describe. I my mate and my spawn get by with one car, and if public transportation were better, I could get by without that. We got by with one car that rarely left its parking spot when I lived in a larger city with better public transportation and public amenities and were considering getting rid of that car. For long trips we rented a bigger car. I have taken a bus to music and soccer lessons even in this transit desert of Saskatoon BTW. You wouldn't catch me in a frigid bus shelter at 6 am with an infant either, but what if the shelter were heated and closer to your home, and the bus came in 5 minutes rather than 25, and it drove a relatively direct route to your destination of what if there were an underground heated tube station? If it could get you there within 5 or 10 minutes of a car trip, the time you take warming the car would more than use up this time. I know this is a utopian vision, but I see our city declining into a dystopia, where even the car lovers are not happy. We "car haters" are even less happy. I only ask people to imagine that there might be a different way. I was not meaning my post to be judgmental of drivers, just the system that so strongly reinforces driving.
     
     
  #8997  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2010, 2:24 PM
socialisthorde socialisthorde is offline
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Originally Posted by Crisis View Post
You and xtooner best be careful in admitting your appreciation of automobiles in this forum. Unfortunately, what is supposed to be a Saskatoon Construction forum seems to have taken a turn into sociology forum intent largely on advising us unwashed masses that we are morally inferior to the latte-drinking, vegan car-haters that tend to populate this thread.

Obviously, the # of vehicles owned by an individual is irrelevant when discussing environmental damage caused by driving as, try as I might, I am only able to drive one vehicle at a time. Rather, this statistic of over one registered vehicle per Saskatonian is a reflection of the prosperity of our fine city. To me, this is a good thing.

Enough ranting and contributing to the non-construction focus of this thread. In case anyone hadn't heard, Construction Management proposals are due next Friday for Lighthouse Supported Living's 9-storey addition to their existing facility at 20th St & 2nd Ave (the old Capri hotel). The new tower will be built on the parking lot east of the Capri (next to AODBT's old office) and will not actually be connected to the existing bldg, except at the main floor. Construction should be underway by the end of 2010 and completed in early 2012.
THing is, construction at its root is civic planning and consideration of cars is intrinsic to construction discussion as I mention in my FNUC post. I will refrain however, from shouting at the oposition. Cheers folks. And Ruckus; I don't rant
     
     
  #8998  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2010, 7:44 PM
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Speaking of rants (hahaha, don't be so modest socialisthorde), and how timely given the discussion topic...

In defence of Saskatoon's cars
By John Gormley, Special to The StarPhoenix September 24, 2010

About five years ago in this column I noted with satisfaction that Saskatoon, in addition to more and fuller restaurants, was actually starting to get what felt like a rush hour -- not 60 minutes worth, thank goodness, but something longer than the eight-minute drive home of days gone by.

Bearing no love for traffic jams, it was my view then, and now, that congested roads are simply a side-effect of Saskatoon being discovered by the rest of Canada. More people have come here and so have their cars.

Since then, as the economy has taken off (we can thank our saviour Brad Wall and his apostles), the province's overall population has swelled by 40,000 people and we've become Canada's "it" province. And this sparks a good debate on what growth will mean for the vehicles you drive.

In most western North American cities, cars rule. And before enthusiastic earth muffins who have declared jihad on the internal combustion engine join with certain traffic planners to pick a fight with the car, let's keep a few things in perspective.

[...]

When the anti-capitalism and environmental issues fail, there's the urban quality-of-life issue: Cars make our streets busy and our road infrastructure expensive.

In Saskatoon, where at least a generation of traffic planners have lived by the mantra "go small or stay home," they've had to admit this city might grow larger than 175,000 people. Actually, that happened back in the 1980s, but they've been in denial ever since.

Hence, as drivers we've endured bad planning, poor engineering and a stunning lack of creative traffic design. Congestion and insufficient infrastructure aren't the fault of cars -- it's the fault of city hall. (Awww, I feel your pain Gormley. Previous councils and their bureaucratic henchmen made a strategic blunder with social engineering bent on accommodating pedestrians and cyclists on the backs of wealthy motorists. The machine deserves better. It financially supports the civic services that are vital to maintaining our healthy and productive city)

Drivers pay financially for our cars and driving. Is it too much to expect governments to use our vehicle sales taxes, gas taxes, licence and insurance fees to support infrastructure? (Sure, I'll concede to that...yawn)

Yet, the same people ready to blame cars for increasing costs have chosen not to allocate our money to make cities more accessible (How do we measure that? Number of surface parking lots per hectare?). Again, this is not your fault or your car's.

This is not to say that it's a zero-sum game of either cars or transit/cycling/walking. It is important in a modern, progressive city to have an array of transportation choices for a variety of users (That is far too soft of a position. We must crush their spirits, and thwart their extremely destructive agenda!).

But it is also important to be accountable for misdirected spending and the simplistic position that sees the car as the enemy.

Gormley can be heard Monday to Friday at 8:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. on NewsTalk 650

© Copyright (c) The StarPhoenix

Read more: http://www.thestarphoenix.com/news/today...on+cars/3572165/story.html#ixzz10TONf1J1

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I did not see this one coming...ha!

So essentially, Gormely is trying to rally the disadvantaged to take a stand, to adopt an attitude of aversion towards the powerful lobbyists and special interest groups advocating for municipal policies that serve to protect vested interests and the status quo.

/sarcasm

I am no enemy of the car. I own one and drive it daily, with great joy I might add. But I acknowledge the value of curtailing my use of it. Gormley is from a different generation, with a different mindset. Himself, my parents, my friend's parents, and the entire boomer population will depart in a couple decades. And then what? My siblings, friends, and the younger generation will be saddled with debt and deteriorating infrastructure.

Thank you to all of you innovative, forward thinking post-war children. All that you accomplished while gracing this planet will be inherited by us, your children. However, you have failed to remind us why we should celebrate your decades of genuine short-sightedness as it relates to building communities.

I remain cautiously optimistic.

Last edited by Ruckus; Sep 28, 2010 at 1:42 AM.
     
     
  #8999  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2010, 1:13 AM
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That is hilarious! I still am an enemy of the vehicle and may always be. I think Saskatoon is at a cusp and can go anywhere. Lets just hope it goes the positive direction (strong public transit, discouraged vehicular use and higher density).
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  #9000  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2010, 2:27 AM
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Perhaps this is something Saskatoon could work towards. Look at the economic and cultural benefits of infill. I think there is a definite lesson to be learned here.

http://www.metronews.ca/toronto/comment/article/636288--thank-the-100-cranes-on-toronto-skyline
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