Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[twoNeurons]

It would seem that the shape of the frequent transit network in Surrey is a quartet of lines radiating out from Surrey Central. 104th, Fraser Highway, King George Hwy to Newton and a line along 120th to serve North Delta.

Two points:
1 - I don't think Surrey can be served well with one [SkyTrain] line.

2 - I don't think we can financially afford to put [SkyTrain] lines along all those corridors.

The solution, a network of LRT, perhaps?

[Gordon]

Google Transit does not show a majority of the bus stops on Granville Street downtown.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

1 - I don't think Surrey can be served well with one [SkyTrain] line.

2 - I don't think we can financially afford to put [SkyTrain] lines along all those corridors.

The solution, a network of LRT, perhaps?

Agreed completely. We could seriously accelerate Surrey Central's growth and importance by planning new lines in 3-4 directions that converge on it, and then building 1-2 of them immediately using the most pragmatic technology. Sitting here from a distance, it seems to me that Newton should be the priority since it has the population and potential for densification; but most people in-the-know seem to put Fleetwood and Guildford as the priorities.

Anyway, an east-west line that can connect to N. Delta in future, and a north-south line that can connect to S. Surrey in future, would seem to be the obvious solutions. But I can't see a justification for SkyTrain, it just doesn't seem likely that there will be enough ridership on any one line. Who cares if there is a mandatory transfer to SkyTrain at Surrey Central? The point of this new network is not to move people to Vancouver, the point is to move people around Surrey and its satellites.

[Gordon]

The Provincial government as part of it's transit plan has Rapid Bus routes, why not put 1 Rapid bus route east towards Langley, and 1 to South Surrey White Rock?

[DKaz]

LRT along the interurban and LRT along King George Hwy then over to Guildford would work best. Then they could build Skytrain straight down the Fraser Hwy to Langley.

[SpikePhanta]

Originally Posted by DKaz

LRT along the interurban and LRT along King George Hwy then over to Guildford would work best. Then they could build Skytrain straight down the Fraser Hwy to Langley.

But why, a good portion of that route is farm land/low density
Not to mention the trains would be full before New west.

If anything they should build a new WEC line that goes SOF to Langley and Abbotsford, and maybe making it's terminus either Waterfront or Pacific Central

[Zassk]

It doesn't make sense to build SkyTrain to Langley.

Aside from nearly doubling the length of Expo Line... and representing probably 70 minutes' ride end-to-end... how many people would actually ride a transit line from Langley?

And do we want to encourage development all the way out in Langley? It seems to me that we should be encouraging as much SoF development as possible to be concentrated tight in close to Surrey City Centre instead.

In terms of SkyTrain's scale of distances, Langley is way, way, out there. The distance is huge and the needed population just isn't there (and we don't want the population there).

[SpikePhanta]

Originally Posted by Zassk

It doesn't make sense to build SkyTrain to Langley.

Aside from nearly doubling the length of Expo Line... and representing probably 70 minutes' ride end-to-end... how many people would actually ride a transit line from Langley?

And do we want to encourage development all the way out in Langley? It seems to me that we should be encouraging as much SoF development as possible to be concentrated tight in close to Surrey City Centre instead.

Yeah, if they are going to extend it along the fraser highway then they should end the line at fleetwood.

[twoNeurons]

People will move to Langley whether you build transit or not.

Why not build a Fraser Valley Express to service central nodes in Langley and encourage higher density development.

Here's an example:

A suburb of Edinburgh (City pop. 500k, Metro Area 700k)), Scotland: Livingston.

Trains run every 30 minutes during the day into Waverly station. Because Edinburgh is horribly expensive to park in, and because traffic is congested, if one goes into the city, one takes the train. Look at all that countryside between the city and the suburb. Note: Edinburgh is only JUST building an LRT.

It helps that the train is 30 minutes and makes 4 or 5 stops vs. the car being closer to 40 minutes.

We've been talking about a "Fraser Valley Express" for years on SSP. The rail corridor is there and is not heavily used. A station in Willowbrook, Cloverdale South, Newton, Scott Road, Sapperton*, Gilmore*, Commercial* and Downtown.

*These stations are optional.

This could be started with DMUs and upgraded to full commuter rail later. This would also connect Newton to SkyTrain. Translink is sitting on some parcels of land in Newton they bought a few years ago.

The SkyTrain extension idea was floated out of the blue when Kevin Falcon was transportation minister. It wasn't on anyone's radar until then. Kevin Falcon lives in Cloverdale. A SkyTrain extension to 168th would do two things for Cloverdale:

• It would make SkyTrain just convenient enough for its residents ( a few minutes on the bus down Fraser Hwy )
• it would guarantee a few more decades of no rail transit out to the valley, as the SkyTrain [or CrimeTrain as many NIMBY 'feel'] is too expensive to be used to cross the countryside between 168th and 186th.

Langley, Cloverdale and beyond are best served with commuter rail at the moment.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

We've been talking about a "Fraser Valley Express" for years on SSP. The rail corridor is there and is not heavily used. A station in Willowbrook, Cloverdale South, Newton, Scott Road, Sapperton*, Gilmore*, Commercial* and Downtown.

Question - from Scott Road to downtown, would this rail route actually be any faster than Expo Line? It seems to me that it would have a good chance of actually being slower. Wouldn't the priority be to connect those neighbourhoods with Scott Road or Surrey Central first?

[twoNeurons]

It would allow a one-seat ride, but you're right, at the moment, it would probably match the Expo Line, timewise.

A good compromise would be terminating at Scott Road Station.

Saying that, I would really like to see that part of the segment improve.

Anyone who has timed an Amtrak Cascades train would have a pretty good idea of the time it takes. It's about an hour from the border to downtown, which includes stopping for other traffic. Obviously, one major hurdle is the New West rail bridge. I don't know how much of that hour is the Surrey - Vancouver leg, but my guess is that it's currently about half the time.

[nname]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

it would guarantee a few more decades of no rail transit out to the valley, as the SkyTrain [or CrimeTrain as many NIMBY 'feel'] is too expensive to be used to cross the countryside between 168th and 186th.

Why? SkyTrain is expensive because it requires grade separation. Building it at-grade would probably cost similar to a building a LRT. If the line continue to Langley via Fraser, only 3 underpasses (the train goes under the road in intersection) required to reach 192th (though, some property acquisitions are needed, just like LRT). If the line go via Cloverdale, only 5 required. One of the underpasses is probably going to be built anyways regardless of technology.. would the MoT ever allow a busy train line to cross Hwy 15 at-grade?

[nname]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

It would allow a one-seat ride, but you're right, at the moment, it would probably match the Expo Line, timewise.

A good compromise would be terminating at Scott Road Station.

Saying that, I would really like to see that part of the segment improve.

Anyone who has timed an Amtrak Cascades train would have a pretty good idea of the time it takes. It's about an hour from the border to downtown, which includes stopping for other traffic. Obviously, one major hurdle is the New West rail bridge. I don't know how much of that hour is the Surrey - Vancouver leg, but my guess is that it's currently about half the time.

I used to see the train everyday when I catch the #169 departing Braid Station at 6:16. The train departed 5:45, so it takes at least 20 minutes for the train to get from Pacific Central to Braid.

[CLC]

heard that articulated buses are really out for #49. I'm surprised that Translink did not cancel the plan at last minute

added on 6:20pm: good thing I did not attempt #49 route today, words are passups situation was not solved, a few extra articulated buses are not enough for this route!

[madmigs]

Originally Posted by Gordon

The Provincial government as part of it's transit plan has Rapid Bus routes, why not put 1 Rapid bus route east towards Langley, and 1 to South Surrey White Rock?

The rapid bus routes that are part of the provincial transit plan:

■ From Westbank to the University of British Columbia Okanagan in the central Okanagan
■ From Douglas Street in downtown Victoria to Langford on the West Shore
■ Highway 1, connecting Lougheed Station to exchanges in Surrey and Langley across the Port Mann Bridge
■ Hastings Street from downtown Vancouver to Simon Fraser University
■ 41st Avenue from the Canada Line to the University of British Columbia
■ Highway 99 from White Rock to the Canada Line in Richmond
■ King George Highway from Surrey Centre south to White Rock
■ Fraser Highway, connecting Langley to the Expo Line in Surrey
■ Highway 7 from the Evergreen Line in Coquitlam across the new Golden Ears Bridge

Note: all are part of the transit plan - just bolded ones to white rock/langley

PS: Transit plan is here: http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/Transit_Plan/Provincial_Transit_Plan_LR.pdf

[madmigs]

Originally Posted by nname

Why? SkyTrain is expensive because it requires grade separation. Building it at-grade would probably cost similar to a building a LRT. If the line continue to Langley via Fraser, only 3 underpasses (the train goes under the road in intersection) required to reach 192th (though, some property acquisitions are needed, just like LRT). If the line go via Cloverdale, only 5 required. One of the underpasses is probably going to be built anyways regardless of technology.. would the MoT ever allow a busy train line to cross Hwy 15 at-grade?

The skytrain is an LRT system, just an automated one so it is designated an ALRT. Skytrain can run at grade as it does in multiple parts of the track now(Nanaimo to 29th Ave station as one example).

Skytrain's operating costs, grade-separated or not, are lower than LRT due to no drivers being needed. And since we already have the automated system, the initial cost for that is already paid for, apart from probably some upgrades to handle additional trains/track. So you are right in that building it at-grade the costs would probably be similar as either way you would want good fencing and track intrusion detection systems(even with a driver you would want this so that they would know ahead of time and so would the head office to get staff out there to clear the issue). LRT could cross the road directly, but like you say, going under(or over) would be more efficient, whereas skytrain you would pretty much need it to go over or under.

And don't forget with LRT, as we have none right now, there are initial costs for a train yard/repair depot. Skytrain wouldn't necessarily have this as it already has a repair depot, although like evergreen, we may want to add a light duty depot for cleaning/minor repairs.

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

People will move to Langley whether you build transit or not.

Why not build a Fraser Valley Express to service central nodes in Langley and encourage higher density development.

We've been talking about a "Fraser Valley Express" for years on SSP. The rail corridor is there and is not heavily used. A station in Willowbrook, Cloverdale South, Newton, Scott Road, Sapperton*, Gilmore*, Commercial* and Downtown.

*These stations are optional.

This could be started with DMUs and upgraded to full commuter rail later. This would also connect Newton to SkyTrain. Translink is sitting on some parcels of land in Newton they bought a few years ago.

The SkyTrain extension idea was floated out of the blue when Kevin Falcon was transportation minister. It wasn't on anyone's radar until then. Kevin Falcon lives in Cloverdale. A SkyTrain extension to 168th would do two things for Cloverdale:

• It would make SkyTrain just convenient enough for its residents ( a few minutes on the bus down Fraser Hwy )
• it would guarantee a few more decades of no rail transit out to the valley, as the SkyTrain [or CrimeTrain as many NIMBY 'feel'] is too expensive to be used to cross the countryside between 168th and 186th.

Langley, Cloverdale and beyond are best served with commuter rail at the moment.

If this Fraser Valley Express line means no change in transit service to Guildford, then I'm thoroughly against it. The bus service between certain areas of Guildford and Surrey Central is already mediocre enough; a rail line would very much benefit the area here especially with the growing Guildford Town Centre. In addition, with the new Port Mann Bridge construction Guildford will become a major transit hub.
That said, if the Expo line extension does indeed follow either 96th or the Fraser Highway while completely skipping Guildford, I will be extremely mad - heck, possibly mad enough to destroy the entire extension . Fleetwood is half as busy and I think can get away being served by a good bus line.

This coupled with something much better to link Surrey and Richmond than an agonizing route through downtown (or at least New West if you take a bus, but it still takes the same amount of time anyway) and we're all set

[SpongeG]

i think surrey needs to step away from the idea of funnelling people into vancouver and provide better service within surrey - the extension into fleetwood would be great and than maybe a street LRT or streetcar creating some kind of route that focuses on surrey would be good

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

i think surrey needs to step away from the idea of funnelling people into vancouver and provide better service within surrey - the extension into fleetwood would be great and than maybe a street LRT or streetcar creating some kind of route that focuses on surrey would be good

Any Skytrain extension into Fleetwood probably wouldn't get enough ridership to pay off as most of the potential riders would be in Guildford - it's the same distance & time bus-ride from Guildford to Fleetwood as it is to Surrey Central. The only other bigger community with potential riders near Fleetwood is Newton and that's even further off than Guildford (i.e. it should get it's own extension down from King George).

I do agree on the prospect of Surrey/N Delta getting better bus service though; a lot more community shuttles (i.e. Panorama, or Cloverdale) could prove really useful combined with good mainline routes and frequency. I could probably get to Newton much easier if the 341 from Guildford to Newton was much more frequent and in-time with other buses to the Guildford Centre from where I live. What Surrey could really use is a crosstown Skytrain or LRT line going from Guildford south to Fleetwood, then on to Newton, west to Strawberry Hill and terminating within North Delta. This would really help out travel within and out of the city, coupled with SkyTrain extensions to Guildford and south to Newton (and beyond those points).

Coupled with a second line branching out at Newton and going to South Surrey/White Rock and Surrey would have an excellent transit system

The line could also be extended north of guildford and onto the Port Mann Bridge & beyond (the best terminus in that case would be Coquitlam Centre, though a branch going to Lougheed would work as well, in which case the best routes would probably go as follows: Lougheed to Guildford to Fleetwood & Newton to South Surrey, and Coquitlam Centre to Guildford to Fleetwood & Newton to Strawberry Hill to North Delta.

The North Delta end of the line could also be extended north and to the west, and then suddenly Surrey has a line to Richmond too! (I know, going a bit farther now but I can't help myself )

[SpongeG]

the fleetwood extension is going through guildford though so you pick up those riders

ther plan shows it going north east to guildford and the south east to fleetwood

i look at the people i know in surrey they all live and work within surrey never leave surrey - occasionally go to richmond - they live in fleetwood - getting to guildford mall by skytrain would be great for them