Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Whalleyboy]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

I don't think anyone will disagree with this (except Metro bureaucrats, apparently).

This would help the bus situation too. Even if the M-line was only extended to City Hall, the shorter trip would mean that fewer B-line buses would be needed to keep the same headway. Those buses could then be put on much-needed express routes on KGH and Fraser Highway.



Because Surrey should have had BRT years ago, but got skipped over unfairly?



...which would be fantastic for the relatively small percentage of the population that can afford to live in those absurdly expensive neighbourhoods. The rest of us aren't so lucky.

the bus that where promised to surrey from the 98 went to the route for ubc from metro town

[nname]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I suspect some of the former 98 B-Line buses are being re-purposed to add to the 99 B-Line and the 43 'not actually a B-Line' after labour day.

The 98 B-Line buses now distributed all over the place. Most are running as 480 and 620 (the original plan was to use a 40ft bus I think), some are put into the 99 (where older 60ft buses get put into storage), some are going to Poco and turn some of the 97/143/160/701 into 60ft (and the original 40ft buses get put into storage), and now some are added to the 49 (which result in more 40ft gets put into storage). From a document I have, seems like there are 62 buses that are not supposed to be retired yet but are placed into storage: 27 40ft low floor (D40LF), 2 hybrids (ex-fuel cell), 5 60ft low floor (D60LF), 19 highway buses, 1 Nova, and 8 community shuttles.

[Whalleyboy]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

What the article seems to ignore is that the UBC Line planning (extending the Millennium Line west from VCC) has been happening for several years - decades if you count the various reports done since the Millennium Line was built. The current planning cycle is expected to finish this spring with a report outlining the preferred UBC Line and rough cost estimates.

Meanwhile, Surrey has just begun planning for the Expo extension to Fleetwood (and ultimately to Langley). By the time the Surrey Expo line extension planning is done and their report on the preferred alternative and cost estimates is submitted, the Millennium and UBC lines can be up & running.

Smells to me of delay tactics.
As long as the money isn't spent in Coquitlam or Vancouver, Surrey thinks they can use it for their Expo extension.

wrong the plan was always to continue the expo line out there when built. Why do you think it was lined up with fraser hwy and not just ended at central to wait to see where they grew?

[Whalleyboy]

I still think it stupid they could have atleast gave surrey some of those buses for the langley and white rock routes

[nname]

Originally Posted by Whalleyboy

I still think it stupid they could have atleast gave surrey some of those buses for the langley and white rock routes

That would be an "improvement"

[Whalleyboy]

it would be an sign of improvement people of surrey could actually see

[nname]

But they are not supposed to do that right now...
Improvement, if any, must be hidden well enough that most people wouldn't know until they get more money

[Whalleyboy]

plus it is tranlink like they'd do anything smart

[amor de cosmos]

I didn't know this statistic. Would "the area" mean within a certain distance of the planned Surrey extension or all of Surrey? Either way, neither (Surrey or Broadway expansion) can be ignored. It would be great to be able to do both.

A Surrey councillor is praising a Metro Vancouver report urging Translink to improve service within Surrey before expanding rapid transit along Broadway to UBC.

While she acknowleges transit for UBC students is important, Judy Villeneuve says Surrey residents rely on their vehicles...with little transit connecting neighbourhoods within the city, "I think that this is the first report that says transportation south of the Fraser absolutely needs to be a priority in order for the plan to be reinforced."

Villeneuve says the SkyTrain can take people to and from Surrey, but transportation within the city is not adequate.

With 10-thousand people moving to the area monthly, Villeneuve says Surrey can't afford to be ignored.

http://www.cknw.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocal/Story.aspx?ID=1274428

[The_Henry_Man]

Let's put this into perspective. The 99 B-Line/Millennium Line extension to UBC issue is the transit equivalent of the Port Mann Bridge/Cape Horn Interchange issue. The Broadway Corridor is already the biggest choke point of the entire transit network in the Lower Mainland.

Building the M-Line from VCC-Clark to UBC can certainly be seen as hitting 2 birds with one stone. You build the M-Line to UBC from VCC-Clark. Then the 99B-Line buses would be put into use for the B-Lines in Surrey (I don't know how many buses are in circulation for the 99B but it's definitely enough for TWO B-Lines in Surrey). Problem solved right there. There's almost no need for extra budget to expand transit in Surrey, it's simply effective reallocation of budget to better use. Why is Translink/Metro Van Council complaining about a lack of budget for all this?

And I'm totally stating the obvious that Metro Van Council/Translink don't even get. They never do things logically. They always go backwards, not forwards.

[amor de cosmos]

makes sense to me, but CBC makes it sound like it's already a done deal:

Metro Vancouver has shifted its priorities in rapid-transit expansion: Surrey is in and the Broadway corridor in Vancouver is out.

In its latest report, "2040 Shape our Future," the federation of 22 municipalities in the Lower Mainland says that once the Evergreen Line to Coquitlam Centre is completed, rapid transit should be expanded in Surrey before a line out to the University of British Columbia is built.

Surrey Coun. Judy Villeneuve says the report confirms what most people already know: An effective transit system in the city is long overdue.

"You can get anywhere in Vancouver by bus, and in Surrey you can't," Villeneuve told CBC News.

The Vancouver suburb has the fastest-growing population in the Lower Mainland, Villeneuve said, taking in up to 10,000 people a month, and it desperately needs an effective transit system.

"I don't want to put Surrey over Vancouver," Villeneuve said, "but the reality is Surrey does not have a transit network worth anything so people can actually get [from] place to place by bus. So it is our turn to have our fair share of transit."

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/09/04/bc-surrey-rapid-transit-coming.html

[satishreddy]

I'd like to add my 2cents to this discussion.

I think that the Broadway line to UBC should be the highest priority among all rapid transit lines

(1) Broadway already has extremely strong ridership. I believe that the the 9 has the highest ridership among all electric trolley route. The 99 has the highest ridership among ALL translink bus routes.

(2) A rapid transit line to UBC benefits people from the entire region. It is not simply people from Vancouver who will be using this line. People from all over the region take transit to UBC daily. I am will to make a large bet that of those who transfer from the Millenium and Expo lines to the 99 bus, more than 50% live outside Vancouver.

(3) If population density along Broadway is such a concern, then why build a rapid transit line in Coquitlam or Surrey at all? Vancouver has a population of about 600,000 and a density of around 14000 per square mile. Surrey has a population of about 400,000+ and a population density of about 3,500 per square mile. Even if you exclude the population of downtown Vancouver (about 80000), the density in Vancouver is still around 12000 per square mile.

The area along Broadway from about Main to Granville has a large number of jobs and has population density. The density tails off as one approaches UBC, but UBC is the 2nd or 3rd most popular transit destination in the whole system. (Central Broadway between Granville and Main is either 2nd or 3rd more most popular as well.)

Can someone tell me what are the destinations in Surrey where large numbers from outside the region travel for jobs or school?

In last year's auditor general's report on structural deficit at Translink, the following was written (page 75):

The majority of the $130 million structural deficit faced by Translink is a result of factors other than the Canada Line, such as the increase in the operational cost of the bus fleet, particularly into lower ridership, geographically spase areas.

geographically sparse = low density.

http://www.fin.gov.bc.ca/OCG/ias/pdf_Docs/transportation_governance.pdf

(4) In one of the articles it is stated by a Surrey councillor that Vancouver is a place where one doesn't need a car, but one does it one in Surrey. OF COURSE you idiot. There isn't some conspiracy against Surrey. Vancouver has 4 times the population density than Surrey! More density, more potential ridership, more potenial revenue from fares, less subsidy to run a bus/rapid transit service, better chance that a transit service can succeed.

(5) Extending the skytrain to Surrey and/or Coquitlam is going to add more strain to bottleneck that is Broadway-Commercial station and the transfer to the 9 and 99 bus.

[jsbertram]

The reality is that "Metro" (Formerly GVRD) can only make suggestions to the local councils as to how the region should grow, including suggestions and preferences of how transit should grow.

Because they don't fund Translink nor have any other influence with Translink, they really can't make Translink do anything. To turn a phrase, they have neither a carrot nor a stick to make Translink do what Metro wants.

I understand that the Metro board is composed of Mayors and Councillors of all the cities and town in the GVRD .... Oops - I mean ... Metro, and some of these Mayors and Councillors are also on the Translink board, but Falcon's change to Translink's board structure makes these Mayors and Councillors more like an advisory board, while the full-time Translink board members can run Translink as they see fit.

There's nothing stopping these full-time Translink board members from saying to Metro "thanks for the advise, but this is what WE'RE doing".

To bend another phrase, when Metro pays the piper, they can call the tune.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Whalleyboy

wrong the plan was always to continue the expo line out there when built. Why do you think it was lined up with fraser hwy and not just ended at central to wait to see where they grew?

I agree that the plan was to continue SkyTrain down the Fraser Hwy, but since that extension was built 20-odd years ago, what planning &tc has been done other than "some day we're going to add some new stations towards Langley"

[satishreddy]

The figure of 10,000 people for month moving to Surrey is utter and complete crap. I think it is 10,000 people per year.

Here is a back of the envelope calculation: Surrey has an approximate population of 400,000 people. 10,000 per month = 120,000 per year = 30% growth rate per year, which means doubling in about 3 years, which just is not taking place.

From BC stats:

http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/pop/po...&gender=t&output=browser&rowsperpage=all

Population of Surrey:

2007: 442,142
2008: 453,686
2009: 465,958

It is about 10,000 per year. For Vancouver

2007: 623,695
2008: 630,478
2009: 643,208

Roughly the same rate of increase 10,000 per year.

[amor de cosmos]

Originally Posted by satishreddy

(3) If population density along Broadway is such a concern, then why build a rapid transit line in Coquitlam or Surrey at all? Vancouver has a population of about 600,000 and a density of around 14000 per square mile. Surrey has a population of about 400,000+ and a population density of about 3,500 per square mile. Even if you exclude the population of downtown Vancouver (about 80000), the density in Vancouver is still around 12000 per square mile.

(4) In one of the articles it is stated by a Surrey councillor that Vancouver is a place where one doesn't need a car, but one does it one in Surrey. OF COURSE you idiot. There isn't some conspiracy against Surrey. Vancouver has 4 times the population density than Surrey! More density, more potential ridership, more potenial revenue from fares, less subsidy to run a bus/rapid transit service, better chance that a transit service can succeed.

for me that's probably the strongest argument for the broadway extension. In addition to the potential ridership & revenue, with its much higher density is it even possible for everyone in Vancouver to drive a car? If the Canada Line moves as many people as (iirc) a multi-lane highway, how much more road would be needed if everyone in Vancouver wanted to drive a car? Density & transit are really just two ways of saying the same thing; each one implies the other.

[SpikePhanta]

And plus the Surrey extension would mean the trains already being full at Columbia.
IMO if they build an extension in surrey it should try to not follow the Fraser highway(Density is not there), but instead try to reach guildford, fleetwood or newton town centres.
Skytrain to Langley shouldn't be a priority.
And just create a new WestCoast Express that goes towards Langley, Abbotsford and Chilliwack

[jlousa]

As mentioned above the Metro's recommendations are just that recommendations. They do however hold a fair bit of sway over any decisions that are made. Hopefully Vancouver offers translink a carrot to sway them back, perhaps a combination of an expedited process plus favourable rezoning along the line. The fact that the UBC line would be revenue producing from day one isn't lost on Translink. By building the UBC line first the Surrey extension would be delayed for a much shorter period then the other way around.

[mrjauk]

Originally Posted by amor de cosmos

I didn't know this statistic. Would "the area" mean within a certain distance of the planned Surrey extension or all of Surrey? Either way, neither (Surrey or Broadway expansion) can be ignored. It would be great to be able to do both.


http://www.cknw.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocal/Story.aspx?ID=1274428

I'm glad someone else pointed out the that the 10,000 per month statistic was b.s. Something else that the councilor implied annoys me:

While she acknowleges transit for UBC students is important...

The Broadway extension is not for the exclusive use of UBC students! It is the final (at least for the next couple of decades) piece of a regional high-speed transit system north of the Fraser. Once it is built--and I believe that it will be built before the Surrey extensions--it will be a major success from day one.

[nname]

To visualize the need for a rapid transit system on Broadway, check out the post on the buzzer blog dated Sept 1

(I won't link it here since the video is sort of private..)