Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Alex Mackinnon]

It wouldn't prove much. They want it to use the backlash against the street changes to push the skytrain. On the other hand if it works out like that, any money spent on upgrading to a BRT corridor would be wasted and it would also make the corridor cheaper for an LRT in the long term, possibly precluding any Skytrain system.

[Gordon]

Why doesn't the #99 hae single priority like the old #98 did woulld this not help keepng the headways onthis route even?

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by Gordon

How much would a BRT line along Baroadway prove, seeing that the #99 B Lne
is more orf less a BRT without a busway and is overcrowded?

Do the 99B line buses get to pass the 9 buses in the regular lanes?

[madmigs]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

It wouldn't prove much. They want it to use the backlash against the street changes to push the skytrain. On the other hand if it works out like that, any money spent on upgrading to a BRT corridor would be wasted and it would also make the corridor cheaper for an LRT in the long term, possibly precluding any Skytrain system.

I don't know about TransitFreak, but I'm of the thinking that just publishing the details of a potential test would be enough to cause an uproar much larger than the one currently going about on Hornby, also before any concrete action has been done. Thus causing the test to be cancelled.

But then again, even just publishing the more detailed specs for the plans for each option will be enough to cause enough uproar over tearing up broadway for months just to build a system with similar capacity to now.

[madmigs]

Originally Posted by Gordon

Why doesn't the #99 hae single priority like the old #98 did woulld this not help keepng the headways onthis route even?

There are a lot of lights and major street crossings on broadway, all relatively close together, a lot more than the north-south route of 98. There's limited signal priority optimization that can be done before jamming the north-south routes. Its one of the reasons why even signal prioritized LRT would not be significantly faster/higher capacity than now.

[TransitFreak]

Originally Posted by Gordon

How much would a BRT line along Baroadway prove, seeing that the #99 B Lne
is more orf less a BRT without a busway and is overcrowded?

It would demonstrate the necessary changes needed to incorporate a surface-RT alternative, with the required dedicated lanes needed. It would not require much cost or infrastructure, other than changing the current HOV signs to the new times, and installing new signs for the rest of the broadway corridor. Some line painting for the entire stretch, that would be it. I'm not suggesting any light signalizations or other elaborate measures, as it would be an 8-month trial period (we do trial periods for new bike lanes). Think of it as the Olympic Lane, but for a longer length and for a longer duration.

[amor de cosmos]

There are growing signs Vancouver and Surrey are jockeying for position to be next in line for rapid transit expansion.

Vancouver officials are strongly promoting the need for a new line west on the congested Broadway corridor to UBC.

TransLink is studying both that idea and options for rapid transit extension in Surrey – connecting the SkyTrain terminus there to Langley and White Rock.

The transportation authority hasn’t yet decided which extension should get priority.

But the Metro board voted June 25 to urge TransLink to pursue the South of Fraser expansion through Surrey next, after the Evergreen Line is built.

Vancouver Coun. Raymond Louie tried to amend the motion to put the Broadway extension on equal footing, but the board rejected the idea, saying priority for the Surrey extension fits the region’s growth strategy.

http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/97530054.html

[aberdeen5698]

Vancouver needs to promote the idea that the fleet of buses made redundant by rapid transit on Broadway could be redeployed to Surrey.

[madmigs]

Originally Posted by amor de cosmos

http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/97530054.html

I wish there was funds to do both as both are needed. Plus the Broadway line would instantly pay for itself with taking all the Bline traffic + a lot of UBC traffic from other bus routes such as the 41/49 and downtown routes. I could also see plenty of additional traffic along broadway for people that either currently drive or avoid broadway due to the need to ride a slow/packed bus.

I'm also not sure how if they can really fit that many more people on the skytrain between broadway and downtown seeing as its already so jammed. It's a pain in the butt already to transfer from the M-Line and was even worse when the pattulo bridge was out due to the fire.

Just think what it will be like 5 years from now after the Evergreen line goes in and with the expected population growth. Gilmore/Brentwood/Holdom alone has a significant # of towers in the construction phase and/or in late planning, not to mention those going up around Lougheed and all those that will be in progress/complete along the Evergreen line.

The only feasible way of offloading some of that downtown traffic is to extend the M-Line to the Canada Line. Either that or increasing bus service significantly to VCC-Clark. Otherwise the Broadway platform is going to be crowded to the point of chaos.

[invisibleairwaves]

I'm going to have to take Vancouver's side on this, even though I live in Surrey and take transit. At least put the M-line out to City Hall to relieve some of the Expo Line ridership before extending it south of the river.

Really, though, at the rate the Evergreen Line is going, I'll be amazed if anything at all gets done before 2020.

[nname]

Implement a B-Line (King George) in Surrey next year, and another one (Fraser Highway) in 2012, let the ridership build, and then worry about any rail rapid transit in 2017 at the earliest. Both Millennium, Canada, and Evergreen Line waited at least 8 years after the start of a BRT, why can Surrey skip this stage?

And speaking of the ridership... none of the bus route in Surrey get more ridership than even the lowly 97 B-Line. The 321, with much longer route, get about 80% of the ridership. The 502, an even longer route, is much lower at 60%.

[TransitFreak]

Oy, that's going to be interesting to follow. Classic case of path of least resistance. SoF will take anything related to rapid transit, whereas CoV is increasingly stubborn. In the end, I'll take any form of expansion of our Skytrain network (Bombardier version for seamless integration) but I believe the Broadway corridor should go first. I too live in Surrey, but I would hate to be waiting at Commercial-Broadway now and in the future, unless they order more trains to provide more short turn service at both Metrotown and Broadway.

To echo madmigs comments, Translink should start looking at creating an express bus (with bus lanes) connecting VCC-Clark to Olympic Village, and possibly going over the Cambie Bridge and provide an alternative into Downtown.

I also like aberdeen's comments of utilizing the 99 B-line buses for SoF B-line service, and other high-volume routes. In any case, here's hoping for a surprise announcement of Evergreen AND millenium line extension combo deal coming soon!

[Pinion]

I'm strongly supportive of skytrain serving existing dense neighbourhoods rather than being used to promote suburban sprawl. Let the tricities rot - build a Broadway line and extend the Canada line to Lonsdale Quay.

[mrjauk]

Does anybody know if those in charge at Translink have ever addressed the future situation at Broadway/Commercial upon the completion of the Evergreen Line and whether there has been any thought whatsoever of filling in what Jarrett Walker has called "the gap?"

http://www.humantransit.org/2010/04/vancouver-a-cheap-fix-for-the-network-gap.html

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by amor de cosmos

http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/97530054.html

Are they blooming idiots.

First off I feel both the Broadway extension and Surrey extension should both be built at the same time.

But if I had to choose the Broadway extension is far more important to the overall system.

For one thing they already have a higher density level along Broadway, except for certain areas. That line would have higher density than any other line already built. Where as in Surrey there is only talk of higher density.

I would probably assume that a vast majority of workers are either headed to the downtown or to some place on the Broadway Corridor. So lets extend the line out in Surrey to get more riders to ride the system. Yet force them onto a bus when they almost get to work. Yet they won't take skytrain today because they don't want to take the bus. Yes that is sarcastic. Not at the people who won't take the bus, but at those who feel extending the line in Surrey is good, but forgetting about forcing those workers on to a bus at the end of their journey.

[Locked In]

Didn't see the Vancouver Sun article posted yet. I agree that this is very dissapointing, and I agree with the reasons above for favouring Broadway extension over expansion into Surrey. Metro is taking comments on the draft plan until mid-October, so as usual it would be more useful for us to direct our criticisms to them than endlessly repeat them on here...

VANCOUVER -- Metro Vancouver's chief bureaucrat wants TransLink to bump a proposed rapid transit line to the University of B.C. to the bottom of its priority list and instead boost services in the fast-growing area south of the Fraser River.

Metro chief administrative officer Johnny Carline said Friday that Surrey will bear the brunt of the region's growth in the next 30 years, and more transit is needed to help shape that city's development.

The recommendation, included in Metro's new 2040 Shape our Future draft regional growth strategy, suggests TransLink give priority to connecting Surrey city centre to other growth neighbourhoods following completion of the long-awaited Evergreen Line, which will link Port Moody, Coquitlam and Burnaby.

Only after Surrey gets improved transit should TransLink consider extending rapid transit along the Broadway corridor, the draft strategy says.

TransLink is preparing technical reports for both projects: a UBC rapid transit line and extending SkyTrain in Surrey to the Guildford area.

"We don't think we'll be able to afford full-scale investments in the Evergreen Line, south of the Fraser and UBC all in the life of this plan," Carline told members of Metro's regional planning committee Friday.

"We can't afford to have investments going out to UBC that take away from investment in the major growth areas."

Metro Vancouver is expected to be home to 3.4 million people by 2040 - a million more than now - with a third of the new residents expected to live in Surrey and White Rock, raising that area's population to roughly the same as Vancouver's.

Under the regional growth strategy, Metro is proposing to develop more "urban centres" with office, retail, community, culture and higher density housing to keep people living and working closer to home or along transit corridors.

Metro has been struggling for years to concentrate development in these centres, and to curb sprawl from extending into rural areas.

Surrey Coun. Judy Villeneuve said her city is in desperate need of more transit, especially as it's set to become the second largest metropolitan region in the province. The city is developing its town centres to become more transit-dependent, she said, while also looking at alternatives such as light rail, heritage rail and more community buses.

Surrey city council will visit Portland in October to consider that city's transportation system, Villeneuve said, and will lobby the federal government for more infrastructure funding.

"Our transit network is very poor," she said, adding that Vancouver already has a better transit system than Surrey. "Vancouver is a place where you don't need a car. Surrey is a place where you have to have a car.

"[Vancouver] may have to look at waiting [for transit] just like we have."

Carline said he has no problem with TransLink investigating rapid transit lines for the Broadway-UBC corridor, but it wouldn't be prudent to spend its limited pot of money in Vancouver when there is a bigger need in Surrey and other areas south of the Fraser.

"That's where the region is changing the most and that's where we need transit," he said, adding: "It shouldn't be put off. ... If we put rapid transit in there, it would put a big impact on the development community on where it wants to go."

Carline said it's more difficult to retrofit a community for high-density transit hubs after it has been developed, particularly if a city has decided to turn swaths of cheap land into low-density, sprawling office parks.

The draft regional growth report - the fifth to be released since the 1960s - has been in the works since 2002. Besides developing more urban centres, it calls for protecting industrial land for manufacturing and processing to create jobs, as well as land for rural and conservation uses.

Carline said the report has been revised to make it more flexible for municipalities to make decisions around their urban centres and other neighbourhoods without having to seek approval from the regional district.

Metro Vancouver will receive comments on the draft strategy until Oct. 15 before going to a public hearing, likely in November. The plan must be adopted by all of Metro Vancouver's 22 member municipalities, the Tsawwassen First Nation and TransLink.

[email protected]
© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun


Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Metro+V...+Surrey/3480197/story.html#ixzz0yawh50zn

Source: Vancouver Sun

[trofirhen]

whatever the outcome, in Favour of south of fraser, or broadway, I think it is essntial to dynamize this entire project with a connection of Millenium west to Canada Line City Hall. Massive energey of all types will radiate from that

[invisibleairwaves]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

whatever the outcome, in Favour of south of fraser, or broadway, I think it is essntial to dynamize this entire project with a connection of Millenium west to Canada Line City Hall. Massive energey of all types will radiate from that

I don't think anyone will disagree with this (except Metro bureaucrats, apparently).

This would help the bus situation too. Even if the M-line was only extended to City Hall, the shorter trip would mean that fewer B-line buses would be needed to keep the same headway. Those buses could then be put on much-needed express routes on KGH and Fraser Highway.

Originally Posted by nname

Implement a B-Line (King George) in Surrey next year, and another one (Fraser Highway) in 2012, let the ridership build, and then worry about any rail rapid transit in 2017 at the earliest. Both Millennium, Canada, and Evergreen Line waited at least 8 years after the start of a BRT, why can Surrey skip this stage?

Because Surrey should have had BRT years ago, but got skipped over unfairly?

Originally Posted by Pinion

I'm strongly supportive of skytrain serving existing dense neighbourhoods rather than being used to promote suburban sprawl. Let the tricities rot - build a Broadway line and extend the Canada line to Lonsdale Quay.

...which would be fantastic for the relatively small percentage of the population that can afford to live in those absurdly expensive neighbourhoods. The rest of us aren't so lucky.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

I'm going to have to take Vancouver's side on this, even though I live in Surrey and take transit. At least put the M-line out to City Hall to relieve some of the Expo Line ridership before extending it south of the river.

Really, though, at the rate the Evergreen Line is going, I'll be amazed if anything at all gets done before 2020.

What the article seems to ignore is that the UBC Line planning (extending the Millennium Line west from VCC) has been happening for several years - decades if you count the various reports done since the Millennium Line was built. The current planning cycle is expected to finish this spring with a report outlining the preferred UBC Line and rough cost estimates.

Meanwhile, Surrey has just begun planning for the Expo extension to Fleetwood (and ultimately to Langley). By the time the Surrey Expo line extension planning is done and their report on the preferred alternative and cost estimates is submitted, the Millennium and UBC lines can be up & running.

Smells to me of delay tactics.
As long as the money isn't spent in Coquitlam or Vancouver, Surrey thinks they can use it for their Expo extension.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

I don't think anyone will disagree with this (except Metro bureaucrats, apparently).

This would help the bus situation too. Even if the M-line was only extended to City Hall, the shorter trip would mean that fewer B-line buses would be needed to keep the same headway. Those buses could then be put on much-needed express routes on KGH and Fraser Highway.



Because Surrey should have had BRT years ago, but got skipped over unfairly?



...which would be fantastic for the relatively small percentage of the population that can afford to live in those absurdly expensive neighbourhoods. The rest of us aren't so lucky.

What happened to all the bendy-buses that were on the 98 B-Line? Once the C-Line started, I'm told that those buses were put into "Olympic Reserve" to handle the excess Olympic crowds, and after the Olympics they were meant for King George Hwy or Fraser Hwy B-Lines to King George Station. Then the budget was cut & funding for those lines disappeared.

Surrey could have one (or both) of these new B-Lines tomorrow if Translink would fund them.

I suspect some of the former 98 B-Line buses are being re-purposed to add to the 99 B-Line and the 43 'not actually a B-Line' after labour day.