Port Mann/Highway 1 Improvements | Completed

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Spoolmak

Yup highway 1 in Kamloops has 6 lanes, and its not congested. The reason the rural highways in Cali are congested is because like I said before, it has more people than Canada squished into a state smaller than BC. Obviously the freeways are going to be congested. If we upgrade the freeways in Van to 10 lanes or even 8 lanes, I doubt they will congest... there is not enough people in the metro, or the province to congest that much roadspace. Maybe due to the fact that there is a shortage of freeways in Van...but can't really fix that now, only thing to do now is expand.

8-lane freeways are more than double the maintenance of 4-lane freeways.

In addition, they actually make driving more dangerous, increasing the ability to cross lanes, increasing weaving etc. For this same reason, an 8-lane highway is not 4x the capacity of a 2-lane highway.

More blacktop to resurface, repaint, maintain, etc.

The big issue with Freeways is that there's no [politically] easy way to regulate their usage.

With public transit, or any pay-per-use system, we benefit from being able to control demand through fares.

Ever wonder why everyone takes the train in Japan? Toll highways. These tolls have come down in recent years with the new government, but I just entered a sample trip into the trip calculator here: http://search.w-nexco.co.jp/. Osaka to Tokyo. Here's one route that came up:

13,300円 543.0km 7時間4分
About $166 in tolls, 543 km, 7 hours, 4 minutes.

The same route by train is:
14,250円 2 hours 29min. (Bullet Train)
$179, about 3 hours including subways to get where you're going on either side.

Taking regular trains (you have to transfer) costs:
8,430円 9hrs. 50min. (5+ transfers)

Include $ for fuel to that $166, and taking public transit looks a WHOLE lot more appealing. Even for two people, taking the bullet train is worth it. For four people, things start to favor the car, but not by much if you include the less expensive train options... or the cheap night bus, which is popular among young ones in Japan.

So, in case you're wondering why some nations have high transit ridership, it's because they make driving expensive or unappealing.

In Vancouver, driving is unappealing to get downtown, but it's definitely not expensive. However, we don't yet have a full transit network to support alternatives. We're getting there and the Canada Line was definitely a piece of that puzzle, but we're not even done the network yet. Likewise, our freeway network isn't "done" yet. The SFPR is a BIG part of that puzzle. Replacement of a few bottleneck bridges and tunnels is another one.

[Metro-One]

I have driven along the freeways from Osaka to Tokyo (and of course from Tokyo back to Osaka) and it does not take over 7 hours!

That is a complete lie.

It took me only 5 and a half hours to go from Takarazuak to Tokyo.

Also the tolls are greatly reduced on Sundays and other holidays (which is generally when I used them).

Everyone does use transit in Japan for work and school, but when it comes to leisure activities that do not involve drinking nearly everyone drove where I lived. Especially if it were a special family event, or simply shopping.

And I tell you, it sure is nice and convenient to have those expressways there when you need them.

It is also nice that there is nearly no industrial / major commercial traffic on the local streets, because they all generally use the expressways

That being said, I generally agree with you, the #1 should never need to become any wider than it is being built with this expansion, unless we are adding rapid bus / express / or C/D lanes. 4 general purpose is the max we should ever build.

I think the new port Mann is going to be a great example on how to properly build a wider freeway. 6 through lanes and 4 C/D lanes.

[cairnstone]

Originally Posted by Vancouver_Highrise

There is a lot of work starting on the 202underpass and park and ride. Still a little confused as to why they arn't just fully replacing the 192nd intersectiion... it will seem like a mess and outdated compared to the rest of the revamped hwy 1 Cheaper to just do it now too...

If you drive over 192 nd you will see the wear on the bridge deck. It was never designed for heavy traffic. Now it is the main entry point into Port Kells

[crazyjoeda]

Originally Posted by Spoolmak

Yup highway 1 in Kamloops has 6 lanes, and its not congested. The reason the rural highways in Cali are congested is because like I said before, it has more people than Canada squished into a state smaller than BC. Obviously the freeways are going to be congested. If we upgrade the freeways in Van to 10 lanes or even 8 lanes, I doubt they will congest... there is not enough people in the metro, or the province to congest that much roadspace. Maybe due to the fact that there is a shortage of freeways in Van...but can't really fix that now, only thing to do now is expand.

Cars don't just drive on freeways they eventually end up on local roads so even a 10 lane freeway will be congested.

[anchorman]

News1130 Exclusive: Port Mann Bridge to be tolled before completion
Slated to open by 2012
Dave White Aug 23, 2010 17:06:04 PM
21 Comment(s) 18 Recommendation(s)

SURREY (NEWS1130) - Drivers who use the Port Mann Bridge will be paying a toll on the new crossing when it opens in 2012, even though it won't be completely open to traffic. Project planners say you'll still notice a significant reduction in traffic volume.

The bridge will be open to eight lanes of traffic late in 2012: three will be general purpose lanes and one HOV in each direction.
Its full capacity is 10 lanes, but the other two won't be open until a year later, the province's original projected opening date of December 2013.

Pam Ryan speaks for the $3 billion Port Mann/Highway One Improvement Project. She says eight lanes will be a major improvement over the five available right now. "The provincial tolling policy is really about tolling for a significantly improved infrastructure where there is a significant benefit. We know from some of the earlier consultation, undertaken with bridge users and they do support the principals of the toll."

The toll won't increase when the bridge fully opens in three years, but is expected to rise over time. The old orange bridge has to be removed by construction crews before the approaches for the new span can be completed.

more...

http://www.news1130.com/news/local/a...ore-completion

[red-paladin]

It would have been cool if they could keep just the orange arch structure over the river as art. I guess the problem is it would be very expensive and those BASE jumping idiots would climb on it all the time.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by anchorman

News1130 Exclusive: Port Mann Bridge to be tolled before completion
Slated to open by 2012
Dave White Aug 23, 2010 17:06:04 PM
21 Comment(s) 18 Recommendation(s)

SURREY (NEWS1130) - Drivers who use the Port Mann Bridge will be paying a toll on the new crossing when it opens in 2012, even though it won't be completely open to traffic. Project planners say you'll still notice a significant reduction in traffic volume.

The bridge will be open to eight lanes of traffic late in 2012: three will be general purpose lanes and one HOV in each direction.
Its full capacity is 10 lanes, but the other two won't be open until a year later, the province's original projected opening date of December 2013.

Pam Ryan speaks for the $3 billion Port Mann/Highway One Improvement Project. She says eight lanes will be a major improvement over the five available right now. "The provincial tolling policy is really about tolling for a significantly improved infrastructure where there is a significant benefit. We know from some of the earlier consultation, undertaken with bridge users and they do support the principals of the toll."

The toll won't increase when the bridge fully opens in three years, but is expected to rise over time. The old orange bridge has to be removed by construction crews before the approaches for the new span can be completed.

more...

http://www.news1130.com/news/local/a...ore-completion

Thus proving the bull crap that was being spewed when they said the bridge would open a year earlier.

[invisibleairwaves]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Thus proving the bull crap that was being spewed when they said the bridge would open a year earlier.

IIRC, the bridge was supposed to have 8 lanes open in 2013 and 10 lanes in 2014, so it is actually opening earlier than they said it would.

[deasine]

Well the fact of the matter is: there is an improvement to existing conditions, and thus, you should have to pay for it. I mean, if the new Port Mann was built and open with existing capacity, then it's not fair, but this isn't the case.

[Mininari]

An improvement in number of lanes, but the full potential of the improvements is going to be badly bogged down by the likelihood of incomplete interchanges at either end, and continuing construction speed zones along the entire corridor. I guess its easy to sell this on the basis that 4 lanes westbound is a HUGE improvement over the present two.

Well one this is for sure -- I'll have to be sure to bring my out-of-province license plates (and my car obviously) for x-mas 2012.

[DKaz]

I'd gladly pay $3 to not have to idle for 30 minutes westbound which is reality from 6am well into the evening weekdays and noon well into the evening weekends. But luckily I live North of Fraser. Although I do take the Golden Ears Bridge from time to time just for the heck of it, it's such a pretty bridge. lol.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by deasine

Well the fact of the matter is: there is an improvement to existing conditions, and thus, you should have to pay for it. I mean, if the new Port Mann was built and open with existing capacity, then it's not fair, but this isn't the case.

Improvements to the Lion's Gate weren't tolled. To me, this bridge is the most tollable bridge in the GVRD. Direct access to Stanley Park AND downtown??? Should be tolled.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I have driven along the freeways from Osaka to Tokyo (and of course from Tokyo back to Osaka) and it does not take over 7 hours!

That is a complete lie.

It took me only 5 and a half hours to go from Takarazuka to Tokyo.

Just because you did it faster, doesn't mean it's a complete lie. In fact, that's about what it took us to do it, including congestion around Tokyo. I can make it to Castlegar from here in about 6 hours, yet Google maps says it takes 8:40.

Google maps says it's almost 7 hours from Takarazuka to Tokyo for one route. It really depends on how fast you travel, how much congestion there is on the road and what part of a city you're going to.

Speed limits in Japan are quite low, and they're pretty accurate with estimates. No reason to get all fighty about what an online trip calculator "estimates" for most drivers.

Also the tolls are greatly reduced on Sundays and other holidays (which is generally when I used them).

Probably why you could get to Tokyo in under 6 hours... if you're travelling off-peak.

Which brings me to another point, has there been any talk of off-peak pricing for the Port Mann or Golden Ears? Doesn't that make sense? I don't see why you should pay the same at midnight to cross the bridge as you would at 8:00 am.

[Smooth]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Improvements to the Lion's Gate weren't tolled. To me, this bridge is the most tollable bridge in the GVRD. Direct access to Stanley Park AND downtown??? Should be tolled.

People on the North Shore would have been pretty pissed off if the NDP government had just fixed up the Lions Gate without adding any capacity then added tolls, but their expensive pet project, the Island Highway, remained untolled. By your argument, they also added the 5th lane on the Port Mann so that should have also been tolled.

[twoNeurons]

I'm actually not specifically referring to paying for improvements to the Lion's Gate. I just mean that people should pay for convenience.

Have a modest toll pay for another Seabus run, the remainder gets put into a slush fund that is for a future tunnel/bridge to supplement/replace the Lion's Gate.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Highway 15 interchange is going to be a standard Parclo A4, which as far as I know, isn't too popular in BC. However, it will be identical to any major interchange in Ontario

Here's a map for example of a parclo A4 from a location in London, ON.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sourc...,0.009624&z=17

I like Edmonton's better, mainly because of the provision for one future flyover built in to the interchange. Now THAT'S planning!. Under construction.

Photograph by Tim Taylor Smith
http://www.flickr.com/photos/timtaylorsmith/

[Smooth]

Unfortunately I don't think modest tolls really work because of the costs to set up and operate the tolling system. Modest tolls would only act as a deterrent for people using the bridge. Unless you're charging several dollars per trip, most of the money from tolls would just be going back into the tolling system.

As others have said in the past, I think raising the gas tax is the most fair way to get people to pay for how much they drive and what type of car they drive. If you drive a short distance in a small car you'll be paying a lot less than someone who drives into Vancouver from Langley every day in their SUV. Also, the gas tax is already in place so there are no additional operating costs associated with raising it.

[wrenegade]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I'm actually not specifically referring to paying for improvements to the Lion's Gate. I just mean that people should pay for convenience.

Problem is there was no "convenience". Yes the wider lanes were safer but that's it. The speed limit didn't change and traffic got a bit worse during construction.

Speaking of the Lions Gate, traffic is worse than ever on that damn bridge, and I'm pretty sure that the Capilano bridge construction has nothing to do with it, it's just damn volume. But I digress...

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by DKaz

I like Edmonton's better, mainly because of the provision for one future flyover built in to the interchange. Now THAT'S planning!. Under construction.

Photograph by Tim Taylor Smith
http://www.flickr.com/photos/timtaylorsmith/

Right on - i have never been in Alberta, but I've heard their freeways are akin to Ontario design standards. Ie.. Very very high.

[officedweller]

Where the heck is that future off-ramp going to? The allignment look weird.

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I'm actually not specifically referring to paying for improvements to the Lion's Gate. I just mean that people should pay for convenience.

So the comment really relates to the 1960s(?) decision to remove tolls from the Lions Gate Bridge after the Province bought it some time before.