YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[Yume-sama]

Why would you fly back to Canada, to then fly to Madrid... when you're in Barcelona? You know it's like 3 hours away, right ?

Where did you find the info on these Summer charters~

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by jlousa

The comment wasn't sarcastic it was blunt.

No, your comment was sarcastic. Let's try to keep it real jlousa.

[jlousa]

Have stuff to do in town that require that I'm here for a few days.

The trip to Paris will be slightly later. At only $599+deficit fighting surcharges the flights were all dirt cheap.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by jlousa

It's not a Canadian problem with Emirates it's global and I'll post you an article to show you that shortly. The fact is Emirates is not interested in flying people to Dubai it's interested in flying people thru Dubai, pretty sure we can agree on that right?
Emirates while compensating their pilots at industry rates still has quite a few advantages not shared by it's western competitors which include much lower payrates for their remaining personnel, fuel at rates other airlines could only dream of, tax free operation in Dubai, under market rates for their operation buildings in Dubai and numerous other subsidies/perks due to being state owned.

Here's an article that shows most of Europe is in the same boat as Canada, guess it's not about Toronto after all, but about nationalism.

http://atwonline.com/aeropolitics-regula...eed%3A+AtwDailyNews+%28ATW+Daily+News%29

Thank you for that article, jlousa! Now I understand. European airlines are threatened, too.
Nevertheless, a connection point in the Middle East Gulf Region would be great for people going to either that region, or on to, say Africa.
So, may I ask you; would Qatar Airways, for example, pose the same threat?

[Millennium2002]

Sorry. Apparently I was a few pages back or something when I responded to something that I thought was the latest post.

[Johnny Aussie]

I am really curious about Canadian bi-lateral agreements.

Where can one actually find the bi-lateral agreements Canada has with each country? (particularly: France, India, Singapore and China).

Also, how does AC's J-class stack up? On all my trips to Canada, I have never flown Air Canada (funnily enough). I am booked on 2 return SYD-YVR (77L) trips through the end of the year and looking fwd to the 15 hour trips (ha). I was recently on SQ's A380 J-class return from MEL-SIN and that was absolutely amazing. The 77W was also excellent.

[raskal]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

I am really curious about Canadian bi-lateral agreements.

Where can one actually find the bi-lateral agreements Canada has with each country? (particularly: France, India, Singapore and China).

http://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/doc.php?did=111&lang=eng

[eemy]

In negotiating a bilateral agreement, the Canadian government wants to have a balanced agreement that is beneficial to Canadians as well as business. The main benefit Emirates brings is lower fairs - it does not really open up any new markets as the cities it wants to serve already have one stop connections to the major markets it would be serving, and the UAE itself is a very minor international destination from Canada.

From the business perspective though, there is very little benefit to Canadian businesses. No airline in Canada is particularly interested in serving the UAE, but expanding the rights of UAE airlines to Canada would adversely impact the economics of routes that Canadian airlines want to serve or already serve, as well as existing foreign airlines which already serve the market with direct flights (I'm thinking primarily of Air India, Jet Airways and PIA here).

So, the Canadian government has chosen to allow 6 flights per week to the UAE, which, considering the size of the Canada-UAE market, is very generous, but which does not overly affect existing airlines in other markets which would likely be pushed out as a consequence of too much capacity going into the UAE.

While it sucks that YVR and YYC don't get another direct flight to an international destination, it is probably better overall. Attributing it to a pro-Toronto bias in government is a simple and convenient explanation but does stand up to even the slightest scrutiny. This government practically despises Toronto, and vice versa.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

In negotiating a bilateral agreement, the Canadian government wants to have a balanced agreement that is beneficial to Canadians as well as business. The main benefit Emirates brings is lower fairs - it does not really open up any new markets as the cities it wants to serve already have one stop connections to the major markets it would be serving, and the UAE itself is a very minor international destination from Canada.

From the business perspective though, there is very little benefit to Canadian businesses. No airline in Canada is particularly interested in serving the UAE, but expanding the rights of UAE airlines to Canada would adversely impact the economics of routes that Canadian airlines want to serve or already serve, as well as existing foreign airlines which already serve the market with direct flights (I'm thinking primarily of Air India, Jet Airways and PIA here).

So, the Canadian government has chosen to allow 6 flights per week to the UAE, which, considering the size of the Canada-UAE market, is very generous, but which does not overly affect existing airlines in other markets which would likely be pushed out as a consequence of too much capacity going into the UAE.

While it sucks that YVR and YYC don't get another direct flight to an international destination, it is probably better overall. Attributing it to a pro-Toronto bias in government is a simple and convenient explanation but does stand up to even the slightest scrutiny. This government practically despises Toronto, and vice versa.

Jeremy; this time I am not referring specifically to EMIRATES, or the UAE. I just want a flight to that part of the world. QATAR is not one of the UAE.
Additionally, what about India? That was on the books for ages; now it's been nixed, too.

As an Ontario boy, you naturally have an (unconcious I admit) Ontario bias, awhen you say "what is good for Canadains..." and it's "better overall...." It isn't. Excuse me. It's better for Toronto and Air Canada. Case closed.

You don't seem to register that this thread is about VANCOUVER INT' AIRPORT, not Toronto, and not Air Canada.

In addition, there is NO direct service from Vancouver to India at all

[vanlaw]

Originally Posted by AlexYVR

Yeah Trof I don't quite get what you're trying to accomplish by bringing them to Vancouver as I, for one, will always go to Seattle to fly if it costs less $$. Which it inevitably will.

Not necessarily. Emirates prices their Canadian flights very competitively. Obviously you cant compare the YYZ-DXB prices to their SFO and LAX departures, but compared to their JFK and Houston departures, the YYZ flights can be cheaper by a few hundred.

Although on a special, last year i flew YYZ-DXB (YVR to YYZ on aeroplan points), 4 nights in Dubai. then Dubai-Mumbai then open jaw out of Trivandrum back to Dubai 16 days later, then DXB-YYZ - $1300 CAD total tax in. At that same time, it was significanlty more even in USD to take their JFK and Houston departures.

A couple of moths ago i checked for a friend who was trying to fly to Kenya....Emirates YYZ departures were much less than their JFK and Houston, and obvioudly less than SFO and LAX (although those two are much longer so not really comparable)

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

I am really curious about Canadian bi-lateral agreements.

Where can one actually find the bi-lateral agreements Canada has with each country? (particularly: France, India, Singapore and China).

Also, how does AC's J-class stack up? On all my trips to Canada, I have never flown Air Canada (funnily enough). I am booked on 2 return SYD-YVR (77L) trips through the end of the year and looking fwd to the 15 hour trips (ha). I was recently on SQ's A380 J-class return from MEL-SIN and that was absolutely amazing. The 77W was also excellent.

Until the direct YVR-SYD flights started, we would use the shared flights operated by Air Canada (YVR-HNL) and Quantas (HNL-SYD) and our travel agent knew to schedule it so we would be able to take a day or two in Hawaii between legs.

Unless you need to get there quickly, I've always encouraged friends and family to do the 'Hawaii weekend mini-vacation' to break up the long flight between SYD and YVR. Even a mid-week 24-hour layover is a nice bonus if you can arrange it.

Sometimes I need the Hawaii layover to recover from "too much family in too few days" syndrome.

[Yume-sama]

Unless you're sitting in Executive First, and completely separated from your family, 17 hours is way too much.

I know a lot of people who will fly to Hong Kong, Tokyo, or Singapore, before going on to Australia. Hawaii would be good, too~

I think I would have to fly to Singapore, and have to take the Singapore A380, by chance

[MalcolmTucker]

Emirates can fly tomorrow to YVR if it wanted to. It does not want to enough - they have three spots they can fly to Canada with.

As for India - how do we know it is not the Indian government holding up a new bilateral?

As for Emirates vs Qatar Airways vs Etihad, here is a link to a good article (and some graphics) that explains they are all pretty much following the same strategy:

The Economist
Aviation in the Gulf
Rulers of the new silk road
The ambitions of the three Gulf-based “super-connecting” airlines are bad news for competitors but good news for passengers
Jun 3rd 2010 | DUBAI

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

Emirates can fly tomorrow to YVR if it wanted to. It does not want to enough - they have three spots they can fly to Canada with.

Really? Then why do they keep on asking and asking? And so why don't they "JUST DO IT" ??

I'm not contradicting you, Sir Humphrey, but it all seems to be a total conundrum. EMIRATES WANTS into Vancouver and Calgary, don't they? But the government says no (????)

So what, exactly, is going on here? I'm baffled. Oh, and where are the three spots?

[MalcolmTucker]

They use the three spots to fly to Toronto. There is nothing stopping them from scaling that down to 2x a week and flying to YVR once.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

They use the three spots to fly to Toronto. There is nothing stopping them from scaling that down to 2x a week and flying to YVR once.

I get it. They're allowed the spots, but only one per week (which they combine with Etihad at Toronto to make 6x per week to the UAE)

Perhaps once a week to Vancouver isn't enough for them.

Emirates seems to be the airline "bogeyman" all over right now, especially given that already-huge Dubai Airport is going to triple in size. And flying cheaply as they do, the could undercut airlines from the world over, making DBX the main transfer hub for most of the world.

OK. What about Qatar Airways? Qatar isn't as big as Emirates, and it's not part of the UAE. It would provide great links onward to places like Nairobi, Johannesburg, Cape Town, etc.

No doubt there's a good reason against that, too.

[vanlaw]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I get it. They're allowed the spots, but only one per week (which they combine with Etihad at Toronto to make 6x per week to the UAE)

Perhaps once a week to Vancouver isn't enough for them.

Emirates seems to be the airline "bogeyman" all over right now, especially given that already-huge Dubai Airport is going to triple in size. And flying cheaply as they do, the could undercut airlines from the world over, making DBX the main transfer hub for most of the world.

OK. What about Qatar Airways? Qatar isn't as big as Emirates, and it's not part of the UAE. It would provide great links onward to places like Nairobi, Johannesburg, Cape Town, etc.

No doubt there's a good reason against that, too.

Are they actually expanding DXB more, or are you referring to the new airport at the Dubai World Central Trade Zone (about 30km from DXB) - Al Makktoum International? They opened the first of 5 runways in June and will eventually have capacity to land 4 planes simultaneously and handle 160MM passengers per year. DXB is already fairly built out. Emirates Terminal 3 at DXB is a genius design.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by vanlaw

Are they actually expanding DXB more, or are you referring to the new airport at the Dubai World Central Trade Zone (about 30km from DXB) - Al Makktoum International? They opened the first of 5 runways in June and will eventually have capacity to land 4 planes simultaneously and handle 160MM passengers per year. DXB is already fairly built out. Emirates Terminal 3 at DXB is a genius design.

Whatever the configuration, it is obviously the world's "mega-airport," and as such, not surprising that other countries and airlines are getting nervous about EMIRATES.

All I'd like to see is a connection to the Gulf for geographic / travel time reasons, so I thought QATAR AIRWAYS might do, instead of EMIRATES.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Whatever the configuration, it is obviously the world's "mega-airport," and as such, not surprising that other countries and airlines are getting nervous about EMIRATES.

All I'd like to see is a connection to the Gulf for geographic / travel time reasons, so I thought QATAR AIRWAYS might do, instead of EMIRATES.

Qatar doesn't even have a bilateral with Canada. Qatar is playing the same game as Emirates just with different spots, so I doubt they would secure one anytime soon. Didn't you read the Economist article? If they got 3 or 6 slots I would guess that they would service Toronto to skim off more of the traffic to India.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

Qatar doesn't even have a bilateral with Canada. Qatar is playing the same game as Emirates just with different spots, so I doubt they would secure one anytime soon. Didn't you read the Economist article? If they got 3 or 6 slots I would guess that they would service Toronto to skim off more of the traffic to India.

OK OK. So where the freak is the service to India? I know AIR INDIA and (I believe, JET AIRWAYS fly there: from Toronto and nowhere else in Canada, of course)

But is there a direct service to India from Vancouver? No there isn't.

All this stuff about Gulf Region airlines taking away service to India is a bit like Don Quixote tilting at windmills.

It's a bit pathetic, in fact, if you'll excuse me.