Metro Vancouver Bike & Pedestrian Discussion

[LotusLand]

I heard that Hornby is the next street to get a bike lane and it will connect with the Dunsmuir lane and eventually connect to Burrard Bridge lane....

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Zassk

You know what I mean. Cyclists passing cars on the right within the same lane, just because they're narrow enough to fit. It's illegal for motorcycles to do it, and it's illegal for bicycles to do it.

I'm no cyclist, but cars do that all the time.

Car in front is turning left and is halfway across the lane. Car behind gets impatient and goes around the car by using the curb lane.

Personally, I'd rather have a bicycle at the front of a line of cars than along with the traffic.

[WarrenC12]

I finally used the Dunsmuir bike lane last night. It's fantastic. However, going west, you get to Hornby or whatever and it just ends. I continued along as I had further to go, but come back home I was a little confused on the best route, as the bike lane on Dunsmuir is essentially one way only (west) after Hornby.

I notice the city's latest bike map on the web page is from 2009. Has anybody seen a new map that incorporates all of the new lanes?

[racc]

Originally Posted by IanS

I don't disagree with the last paragraph but I think your estimate of 1 in 10 or 20 is just plain wrong. I walk to work through Vancouver and walk around Vancouver every day and, based on my observations, the majority, if not the vast majority, of cyclists pretty much ignore the rules of the road.

Of course, I see lots of bad driving too.

That is because you only notice the ones who break the rules. I actually take the time to observe ALL cyclists not just the few who break the rules. If you actually take the time to observe all cyclists as well, you would find the vast majority of them follow the rules of the road as well or better than drivers and peds. Now, there maybe a few places in town were the behaviour is a bit worse but this is a small number of places.

[IanS]

Originally Posted by racc

That is because you only notice the ones who break the rules. I actually take the time to observe ALL cyclists not just the few who break the rules. If you actually take the time to observe all cyclists as well, you would find the vast majority of them follow the rules of the road as well or better than drivers and peds. Now, there maybe a few places in town were the behaviour is a bit worse but this is a small number of places.

While i appreciate you taking the time to tell me what I see and what I notice, I once again have to disagree with your assertion. Since becoming more aware of this issue, I have been making note of cyclists I see and trying to keep a rough note of their behaviour. For example, and FWIW, out of the 13 cyclists I saw while walking home yesterday, 9 of them were breaking the rules of the road (ie. going through red lights, hoping up on sidewalks, riding the wrong way through traffic etc.).

It may be the case that, given the small number of cyclists downtown, their bad driving stands out more than the bad car driving, but that's what I see.

Of course, this isn't any kind of scientific or measured assessment; just what I observe walking to and from work.


I am curious, though, given your broad, sweeping assertions, how is it that you are able to see every cyclist on every street at all times downtown? I spend a lot of time outside in the City and I know that I only see a very small fraction of what goes on. What's your secret? Omnipotence? Dogmatic belief? Wishful thinking?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by racc

That is because you only notice the ones who break the rules. I actually take the time to observe ALL cyclists not just the few who break the rules. If you actually take the time to observe all cyclists as well, you would find the vast majority of them follow the rules of the road as well or better than drivers and peds. Now, there maybe a few places in town were the behaviour is a bit worse but this is a small number of places.

I agree. But I think the arguments here are invalid.

Just because there are bad cyclists, doesn't mean we shouldn't invest more in cycling infrastructure.

It's like saying that since drunk drivers kill 4 yr olds on the side of the road (Carol Berner), we should stop Gateway now...

[IanS]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Just because there are bad cyclists, doesn't mean we shouldn't invest more in cycling infrastructure.

FWIW, I wasn't making that argument. I was just responding to, and disagreeing with, RACC's assertion that 90-95% of cyclists follow the rules of the road.

I agree that this is not a reason to refrain from investing in cycling infrastructure.

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I'm no cyclist, but cars do that all the time.

Car in front is turning left and is halfway across the lane. Car behind gets impatient and goes around the car by using the curb lane.

Personally, I'd rather have a bicycle at the front of a line of cars than along with the traffic.

From the bike sense manual about passing:

Passing on the left
When overtaking slower moving traffic, you must pass on their left and should allow at least one metre of clearance. When passing other cyclists, warn them in advance by voice or bell.

Passing on the right
Passing vehicles on the right between intersections, especially in congested city traffic, is a topic of debate, even in the courts. Under appropriate circumstances, case law suggests that cyclists should be able to legally pass slower moving traffic on the right where the curb lane is wide, provided they are cautious.

Most often it is best to shoulder check, move into the middle of the lane and line up with the rest of traffic. This will also discourage motorists from making a right turn into you as you enter an intersection.

When cycling in narrow-lane traffic where many motorists attempt to squeeze past you before each traffic light, some cycling instructors suggest the following:

Rather than moving up to the first car, which will likely re-pass the cyclist, it may be more strategic for the cyclist to proceed only as far up the line as the last cars likely to make the next green light.

It is legal to pass on the right:

when you are in a bike lane; or
when the vehicle is turning left or indicating a left turn


When NOT to pass on the right:

when traffic is moving;
when there is a street, driveway or parking spot a car can turn into; or
when there is less than 1.5m between traffic and the curb.

Goes to show it is best if cyclists have their own bike lane to allow free passing of slower vehicles as then it would be legal for the cyclists as they have their own lane. So keep adding bike lanes and bike cycle tracks.

[s211]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Is anybody really surprised at Mayor Moonbeam's behaviour? What a pathetic hypocrite.

...Robertson on Monday appeared reluctant to admit wrongdoing. He acknowledged that the bike-specific stoplight on Dunsmuir at Richards was red, but said, “I wasn’t going against a red light. There was a red light to go straight on Dunsmuir. I turned right in the crosswalk.”

It was when he left the crosswalk and tried to get across the curbside bus lane and into the bike lane on Richards that the conflict with the bus occurred, Robertson says.

This “I-was-turning-into-the-crosswalk-not-the-roadway” excuse sounded a little weak to me, so I took a walk over to the intersection. When the light is red for bikes on Dunsmuir, traffic on Richards is coming from the left. It is quite clear that when the light is red, bikes must stop at the white stop line painted in the bike lane, whether they’re going straight or turning right, just as at any red light...
http://www.theprovince.com/travel/Vancou...h+after+running+light/3325537/story.html

If I were the bus driver, I wouldn't have tried to avoid the collision.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by tybuilding

Goes to show it is best if cyclists have their own bike lane to allow free passing of slower vehicles as then it would be legal for the cyclists as they have their own lane. So keep adding bike lanes and bike cycle tracks.

Yes. As a cycle commuter myself, all it takes is a painted line to make a world of difference.

I understand the appeal to more casual cyclists of having fully separated bike lanes, but lets keep creating simple bike lanes wherever possible and economical.

[racc]

Originally Posted by IanS

I am curious, though, given your broad, sweeping assertions, how is it that you are able to see every cyclist on every street at all times downtown? I spend a lot of time outside in the City and I know that I only see a very small fraction of what goes on. What's your secret? Omnipotence? Dogmatic belief? Wishful thinking?

Actually cycling on bicycle routes where most of the cyclists in the city are.

How about standing along Dunsmuir for a while and actually observing cyclists. The large majority of them obey the rules. Even Miro Certig of the Vancouver Sun found this when he was observing cyclists on Dunsmuir. I have used Dunsmuir quite a bit, seen literally hundreds of cyclists and only 2 have run red lights. Meanwhile, far more motorist have stopped illegally in the bike lane or turned right when right turns are banned.

Now, the few cyclists who don't use streets with bike lanes on them may tend to obey the rules less because there are no facilities for them often to avoid the discomfort, danger and illegal intimidation by motorists when riding on a street with busy traffic.

You also maybe observing only couriers but judging the actions of all cyclist by judging couriers is like judging the behaviour of all drivers by the actions of taxi drivers.

[racc]

Originally Posted by s211

If I were the bus driver, I wouldn't have tried to avoid the collision.

Then you would be going to jail for assault or manslaughter.

[tybuilding]

I found a website which gives the best practices cycling design:

Cycling best practices website http://www.nacto.org/citiesforcycling.html

I really like the Portland, Oregon link where it gives examples with pictures, gives suggestions, lists advantages and diadvanages.

http://www.portlandonline.com/Transportation/index.cfm?a=266116&c=44674

You can implement some of these design practices pretty easily such as painting of conflict areas such as a right turn lane where vehicles would cross the bike lane to turn you would paint the bike lanes and highlight them in solid green.

I have seen this done already in New Westminster but it was painted red. Upgrades like this though should be standardized and implemented in all areas.

[IanS]

Originally Posted by racc

Actually cycling on bicycle routes where most of the cyclists in the city are.

How about standing along Dunsmuir for a while and actually observing cyclists. The large majority of them obey the rules.

That may be. I never claimed to have seen all cyclists everywhere. I don't walk along Dunsmuir and, for all I know, you may be right that the large majority of them obey the law. I was just speaking about my own observations.

Now, the few cyclists who don't use streets with bike lanes on them may tend to obey the rules less because there are no facilities for them often to avoid the discomfort, danger and illegal intimidation by motorists when riding on a street with busy traffic.

Now, here you seem to drift back into the realm of broad generalizations and speculation. Is there any data as to what percentage of cyclists use streets with bike lanes compared to what percentage don't? Have there been any surveys concerning the motivations of those who don't obey the rules? I imagine some of the cyclists I see might be motivated by the factors you suggest. However, some of them may simply feel that the rules don't apply to them. I don't know. And, I suspect, neither do you.

You also maybe observing only couriers but judging the actions of all cyclist by judging couriers is like judging the behaviour of all drivers by the actions of taxi drivers.

Well, yes, I do include couriers in my observations, as those make up a large portion of the cyclists I see every day. However, I'm not judging the actions of all cyclists by their behaviour. I'm merely relating what I see.

[usog]

Originally Posted by racc

Then you would be going to jail for assault or manslaughter.

Wait, if you're just driving along properly/legally and a cyclist does something boneheaded resulting in you hitting them/them hitting you, would the driver get any sort of negative consequence? Asides from the probable insurance hit of course. If the answer is yes, that would be pretty darn stupid if you ask me.

[s211]

Originally Posted by racc

Then you would be going to jail for assault or manslaughter.

Not unless your kangaroo court is running the show.

[Porfiry]

Originally Posted by IanS

Of course, this isn't any kind of scientific or measured assessment; just what I observe walking to and from work.

So why should anyone care about your data?

[IanS]

Originally Posted by Porfiry

So why should anyone care about your data?

1. It's not data. It's my personal observation.

2. Go back and read my original post and the post to which I was responding. (I'd explain it to you, but if you read it, I'm sure you'll understand.)

Apart from that, there's no reason to care at all.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by Porfiry

So why should anyone care about your data?

but yet I'm assuming you will completely trust and listen to racc's data.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by Pennywise604

I am very new to cycling, in fact until 3 weeks ago, I hadn't been on a bike in years. I now really enjoy it! The only places I've been to though, are Iona Jetty down on Sea Island which is only flat, Watershed Park which is basically my backyard, but it's all forest, and Mud Bay Park/Boundary Bay Dikes which is also very flat. These are beautiful places, but it's not challenging enough. I don't mind hills in fact that's the best part. Colebrook Rd. has a pretty tough climb heading up to Boundary Park, I think a 100m. section reaches 12%.
What I want to know is, where are the best places to go for a good workout? Climbing an actual mountain would be too hard since I'm just starting, but what are some fairly steep hills in the Delta/Surrey/Langley area? I was thinking of trying 104th av.

In Surrey, anything from the flats to the high points would give you a great work out for example from Surrey Lake up 152nd to Guildford is a good push, or from Cloverdale to Highway 1 again another push. Can try something like Golden Ears to Guildford too for a long run, has some great hills especially in stretches of 96th but unfortunately from 176th to 152nd it isn't terribly biker friendly. There is though a bike trail that leads across most of Surrey along the power lines.

Langley try Langley City up 200th towards Highway 1. Again a great and long climb. Could also just do Burnaby up Willingdon or Royal Oak from BCIT. Another good climb and you end up pretty much at Metrotown.