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  #3361  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2010, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
Yeah, but it doesn't pass the NAC building in that area.

I had the same though, but then, if you have all the equipment to dig out stations, maybe rearranging the NAC underground parking isn't such a big deal (cost wise)? Might be something worth costing out.
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  #3362  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2010, 10:45 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is online now
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
OK, the reason why we need such a deep tunnel is because of the Rideau Canal.
If the canal were the only constraint, it could be a lot shallower; the constraint is the choice of "cross-country" route, under existing structures.

Is it still possible the depth could change, depending on what the geologists find out?
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  #3363  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2010, 10:46 PM
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I had the same though, but then, if you have all the equipment to dig out stations, maybe rearranging the NAC underground parking isn't such a big deal (cost wise)? Might be something worth costing out.
Just raze the NAC and start over. That is easily the ugliest building in Ottawa, and one of the ugliest in Canada.
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  #3364  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2010, 10:50 PM
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Now now... It does have it's niceties.

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  #3365  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2010, 12:58 AM
Admiral Nelson Admiral Nelson is offline
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Now now... It does have it's niceties.

Inside, maybe, but outside it is ugly.
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  #3366  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2010, 1:30 AM
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  #3367  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2010, 2:22 AM
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When I mentioned that one of the major obstacles is the Rideau Canal, I was referring to it and the sewers underneath it. By using the MacKenzie King bridge, and shallow tunnels on both sides, we limit overall length of the tunnel and therefore the cost. Of course, the tunnel would follow existing streets instead of the proposed cross-country route requiring us to go under building foundations. This facilitates the reuse of existing infrastructure, namely the bridge, which is already mainly used for transit. Why return this wide bridge back to general traffic?

On the NAC, many Ottawans reacted with horror when it first opened because the bleak brown windowless walls. Some referred to it as the penetentiary.
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  #3368  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2010, 2:36 AM
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Now now... It does have it's niceties.

I've never seen them.
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  #3369  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2010, 2:40 AM
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I think it might be interesting to think about bringing the LRT above ground to cross the Canal on the Mackenzie King Bridge and just following the current Transitway, returning underground if necessary.

The downside to bringing the station down to the Bridge is that it wouldn't serve The Hill or the Byward Market as much as the cross-country alignment would. Crossing the canal in sheltered corridors to get to the NAC would also be a problem.
The upside would be a less costly route that could better serve the Rideau Centre and the new Conference Centre as well as reuse Laurier Station to serve UofO.

I'm just thinking aloud...

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  #3370  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2010, 11:32 PM
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Environmental Project Report has been completed and posted online... it is massive (4114 pages according to David Reevely). I'm not sure how much is new versus putting together all the reports/studies we've seen to date into a comprehensive package (seems to be a lot of that).

http://www.ottawalightrail.ca/en/project-plan/environmental-project-report
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  #3371  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2010, 4:47 PM
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Two points

A lot of people seem to make the assumption that shallower is cheaper. Is there any evidence of this? Deep tunnels seem to be the overwelming choice of almost every transit system built or planned in an urban area in the last 30 years (Washington, the recent Toronto lines, the gold line in south africa, Crossrail, the new rail tunnel under the Hudson, numerous lines in Asia, etc.). A shallow tunnels requires not only several years of hugely disruptive road closures but often relocation of all kinds of underground infrastructure that has been put under city streets over the decades.

I'm sure whatever engineers are hired for the project will be experts in this type of work and they that will know how to deal with any rock problems may exist (or change the project if the problems are insurmountable). There is nothing new or innovative about the planned line (unlike some of the zany schemes floating around) - it uses technologies that have been proven all over the world.
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  #3372  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2010, 7:12 PM
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I never really thought of it that way... I did always assume that cut-and-cover was cheaper than deep tunnels.

One undeniable advantage to cut-and-cover is that the distance to the station platform is much smaller.

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  #3373  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2010, 10:25 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Two points

A lot of people seem to make the assumption that shallower is cheaper. Is there any evidence of this? Deep tunnels seem to be the overwelming choice of almost every transit system built or planned in an urban area in the last 30 years (Washington, the recent Toronto lines, the gold line in south africa, Crossrail, the new rail tunnel under the Hudson, numerous lines in Asia, etc.). A shallow tunnels requires not only several years of hugely disruptive road closures but often relocation of all kinds of underground infrastructure that has been put under city streets over the decades.

I'm sure whatever engineers are hired for the project will be experts in this type of work and they that will know how to deal with any rock problems may exist (or change the project if the problems are insurmountable). There is nothing new or innovative about the planned line (unlike some of the zany schemes floating around) - it uses technologies that have been proven all over the world.
There are two big reasons that a lot of the newest tunnels have been bored instead of using Cut & Cover technology: 1), there are already lots of other things closer to the surface – major infrastructure, other tunnels, etc. – which can’t be disturbed during the construction and so the tunnel must go under them; and 2), avoiding disruption to the surface is worth the extra cost of boring. Yes, boring does cost more for (relatively) shallow tunnels than Cut & Cover ones. If the tunnel is to be deep, then boring can be less expensive than a Cut & Cover equivalent. Reason number 1) above also usually provides the reason that a tunnel needs to be deep. I would imagine that through a green-field, no city (not even Ottawa) would opt for a deep tunnel. If there is to be a tunnel at all, it would be constructed using Cut & Cover.

So, once it has been determined that a tunnel should be bored, the cost of such boring can vary wildly based on the site conditions. If one is boring through a ‘solid’ mountain of competent rock, with no worries of water infiltration, then the cost can be (relatively) small. The ‘hard-rock’ TBM simply needs to bore through, leaving a tunnel in the rock. If there is the possibility of the rock not supporting itself, then extra costs are required to stabilize the tunnel’s roof. This can go to the extreme where a concrete liner must be constructed along the bore as the TBM passes. This is also the method used for tunnels through looser materials which could collapse after the TBM has passed. The possibility of water infiltration or very loose materials can add further expense because a more specialized TBM is needed. These Earth-pressure Balanced (EPB) TBMs create a higher pressure region in front of the TBM to hold back the water, etc. until the concrete liner is in place.

The condition through which the TBM must bore is obviously a factor in the cost of the tunnel. It might also be a factor in the tunnel depth since it might be less expensive to stay lower and bore in rock instead of needing a more expensive EPB TBM and boring closer to the surface. If a tunnel must be bored through two distinctly different zones of material, then there are machines which can do it, but they are not as efficient as dedicated TBMs and so bore more slowly, potentially increasing the tunneling costs.

Then there is the cost of out-fitting the stations: If the stations are close to the surface, then installing elevators/escalators/ and stairs will be less expensive. Not only because of the cost of the items themselves, but for the cost of cutting a connection to the surface. Ventilation is going to be more expensive for deeper stations since larger motors will be required for the blowers to lift the mass of air higher.

There are too many variables to state that for every tunnel it is cheaper to do ‘thus-and-such’. Currently the City’s estimates are based on what are considered to be ‘reasonable guesses’. More information is being gathered through the geotechnical studies to verify the conditions more accurately. This will allow for more precise estimates to be generated. Remember, like any big project, this is an iterative approach; City Council needs to have some idea of a cost so they know whether it is even worth-while to look into the possibility; then as more information is found, the estimates are refined.

Of course, these are only the costs of creating the tunnel in the first place; which is a one-time expense. The operation of the station is an on-going burden and can amount to many times the cost of the tunneling over the many year life of the tunnel.

On your second point: Absolutely, the work will be undertaken by professionals, and the technology of tunnel boring machines is fairly mature, but there are many variables, some of which are difficult, if not impossible to determine before the process begins. There are excellent examples of recent projects which could have been done without incident if other decisions had been made, but that didn’t stop problems from cropping up in those projects. Hind-sight is always 20/20. For example, if the Ontario Hydro water tunnel at Niagara Falls had been lined, then it would probably not have had the problems of cave-ins; but it would have been a much more expensive estimate originally. That project was also given to competent tunnelers who were using mature technology and it was planned based on the best available information.
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  #3374  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2010, 3:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
I never really thought of it that way... I did always assume that cut-and-cover was cheaper than deep tunnels.

One undeniable advantage to cut-and-cover is that the distance to the station platform is much smaller.

Which also makes it a lot more convenient to use the system for "short-haul" trips. The one good thing about the existing downtown Transitway, at least if you have a pass, or the Calgary C-Train, is that you can take a quck jaunt across the downtown.

If the stations are too deep, you might as well walk. The city (and private land owners) will have to step up to the task of making the post-tunnel walking environment downtown better. I'd also like to see a post-tunnel local bus route on Laurier, which would be super-de-dooper had the planned system included a Laurier E station.
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  #3375  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2010, 1:00 PM
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Which also makes it a lot more convenient to use the system for "short-haul" trips. The one good thing about the existing downtown Transitway, at least if you have a pass, or the Calgary C-Train, is that you can take a quck jaunt across the downtown.

If the stations are too deep, you might as well walk. The city (and private land owners) will have to step up to the task of making the post-tunnel walking environment downtown better. I'd also like to see a post-tunnel local bus route on Laurier, which would be super-de-dooper had the planned system included a Laurier E station.
That's another reason in favour of a short-train surface system downtown.
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  #3376  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2010, 3:46 PM
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What about the NATM advocated by Andrew Haydon? Would it work for shallow tunnel too?
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  #3377  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2010, 5:38 PM
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What about the NATM advocated by Andrew Haydon? Would it work for shallow tunnel too?
depends how shallow, my impression is it doesn't work too well unless you have some form of solid rock plus a reasonable amount of pressure (from depth). Now the bedrock is not too deep but remember there is still the sandy 'canyon' to the east of the canal plus the variations in bedrock level.

Also remember that using a TBM does not preclude using NATM type methods for securing the tunnel vs a concrete liner. If you don't have a water problem you can follow up the drilling face / tunnel shield with rock molting, mesh and shotcrete.

I am sure whatever company gets the contract will use the cheapest safe method. The only way to really now how the route and or technology choice changes price is to do a Canada Line style tender which doesn't really fit very well into the Ontario Environment Assessment process.
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  #3378  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2010, 6:49 PM
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Cheaper design option

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  #3379  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2010, 8:36 PM
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Well, I must say if it is as effective, cheap, and easy to implement as this article states, then im all for looking into these alternative options... This article and its statements on lrt and subways as 'blingtransit' really made me think about the truth of it...

Are streetcars more effective then are articulated busses? I guess what i'm asking is could they replace them on albert and slater.. and avoid tunnel construction? As much as I like the big city feel of the tunnel and lrt, 100s of millions < 2.1B :/
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  #3380  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2010, 1:59 AM
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Well, I must say if it is as effective, cheap, and easy to implement as this article states, then im all for looking into these alternative options... This article and its statements on lrt and subways as 'blingtransit' really made me think about the truth of it...

Are streetcars more effective then are articulated busses? I guess what i'm asking is could they replace them on albert and slater.. and avoid tunnel construction? As much as I like the big city feel of the tunnel and lrt, 100s of millions < 2.1B :/
I think we'll still need a tunnel. That's unavoidable. But it might be postponable (new word?).

It would be nice to have an entire plan, with lots of pieces, and a phased approach that lets the city build the pieces as demand and congestion require.

My suggestion would be to bridge the distance between Campus and Lincoln Fields with a short-train LRT that can also handle many of the current users of the Bayview-to-Dominion BRT. And then the Carling LRT can handle the extra traffic when that stretch of the BRT gets shut down for conversion to LRT, instead of running hundreds of buses a day on neighbourhood streets not designed for it.

This means spending more money before completing the tunnel, but probably ends up being cheaper at the end of the day.
  • Avoids hundreds of millions of dollars in costs to divert the full BRT transitway load onto neighbourhood streets for the first phase of BRT conversion to LRT
  • Also avoids those same costs a second time when the section of BRT west of Tunney's is shut down for conversion to LRT in the next phase
  • Builds the Carling secondary LRT (called for in the master plan) at a time that supports the rest of the project instead of tacking it on at the end.

Basically, build a medium-capacity transit bypass of the western BRT before converting it to LRT.
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