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  #3341  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2010, 7:06 PM
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Thanks, waterloowarrior!

With John Baird not commenting specifically if there is a stipulation or not, we don't really know...

If what Alex Cullen says is right, doesn't look too promising if the new mayor/city council cancels the tunnel plan and has to "start over" with 2+ years of EA's...
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  #3342  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2010, 7:10 PM
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If we start over, I am going to start digging that tunnel with a shovel. >_<
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  #3343  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2010, 7:11 PM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakche View Post
Thanks, waterloowarrior!

With John Baird not commenting specifically if there is a stipulation or not, we don't really know...

If what Alex Cullen says is right, doesn't look too promising if the new mayor/city council cancels the tunnel plan and has to "start over" with 2+ years of EA's...
Well, just look at what happened in 2006, councillors thought that the processes would be a lot shorter.
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  #3344  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2010, 7:25 PM
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Originally Posted by d_jeffrey View Post
Well, just look at what happened in 2006, councillors thought that the processes would be a lot shorter.
Wait, what? Our City Council actually thinks?!?!
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  #3345  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2010, 7:37 PM
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LOL, I bet they think that this time too.

With a restart, by the time the new plan is ready, it'll be time for another election again.
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  #3346  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2010, 6:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
As just one example, transitway conversion amounts to $540M of that figure. There's approximately 9 km of transitway to convert and coincidentally 9 stations to convert/build. So we can make a neat little assumption and lump in one station per km and divide that into the $540M for a total of $60M per km + station. Elsewhere I had seen that stations averaged $40M each, leaving $20M/km for conversion. Well the problem with that is that light rail infrastructure costs per km were running at around $8.25M/km back in April 2008 before contingencies and the stations themselves were usually estimated in the $1-5M range each. Throw in a few million per kilometre for non-infrastructure conversion costs and you're still well below $20M/km. Unless you have like 50% contingency. Except the $2.1B already includes $100M of contingency.

It's all about as clear as mud.
Is it possible they're including the hundreds of millions of dollars in bus diversion costs in the transitway conversion? I hate those costs. Such a friggin' waste.

I don't want the city spending more than $600M on this phase. There's just no logical reason why the taxpayers of this city should be stuck with a larger bill than anywhere else.

In order to get down to that $600M figure there would probably have to be some changes to the plan. In order, here is what I would do.

1) Cancel Hurdman LRT station conversion and straighten the LRT route between Lees and the Via Station stop. Serve Lees with buses down in the trench (one way) and stage the buses at Hurdman BRT station.
2) Do full excavation for only 120m stations in the tunnel, and rough excavations for 180m stations. Close off the first and last 30m and worry about floors, ceilings and services in those areas later, when the demand is there for full capacity.
3) If that and other cost savings don't get you to the right number then go on the surface through downtown and connect to Lincoln Fields via Carling secondary LRT (saves the tunnel costs ... temporarily, and saves the transitway bus diversion costs ... permanently).

If there's any money left over then put it towards the boring of the tunnels. Then do the station excavation and all the other tunnel work in the very next phase with costs shared equally between city, province and feds.
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  #3347  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2010, 3:14 PM
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^ While Im no expert, im sure its not perfect... But I am sure that alternative plan of action would of taken months to come together before city council :/
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  #3348  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2010, 3:46 PM
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The only way left to reduce the costs is by doing a cut and cover tunnel. The rest will be chump change by comparison.
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  #3349  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2010, 4:01 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Cutting down the length of the stations by changing vehicle selection would help too. High floor LRT can provide the same capacity 30,000 ppdph with 125 m stations. 55 m of less station mined out or constructed and (possibly) a somewhat smaller tunnel bore would save a reasonable amount.
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  #3350  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2010, 4:16 PM
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4 Pre-Qualified Respondents for the LRT Preliminary Engineering and Project Management RFP

On May 6, 2010, the City received responses to Request for Qualifications (RFQ) issues by the City with respect to the Work and referenced as RFQ No. 0041-92594-Q01. Pursuant to the RFQ, the City determined that the following four Respondents to the RFQ would be invited to submit Proposals for Stage 2 Request for Proposal (RFP):

(1) AECOM Canada Inc.

(2) Capital Transit Partners:

Jacobs Associates
STV Canada Consulting Inc.
URS Corporation
Morrison Hershfield Limited

(3) Delcan Corporation + Parsons Brinckerhoff Canada Inc.

(4) Ottawa Transit Alliance

Hatch Mott MacDonald
Marshall Macklin Monaghan Group LTD. / McCormick Rankin Corporation
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  #3351  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2010, 4:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby View Post
Cutting down the length of the stations by changing vehicle selection would help too. High floor LRT can provide the same capacity 30,000 ppdph with 125 m stations. 55 m of less station mined out or constructed and (possibly) a somewhat smaller tunnel bore would save a reasonable amount.
Yes, but like Vancouver is not doing, they are paying $1G to double the stations length, while it could have been done at a much lower cost at construction time. But I agree with the high floor comment. They are only using low-floor vehicles in case the Carling streetcar is built.
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  #3352  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2010, 5:06 PM
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Well, I am not saying only build for opening day or 15 years of need - you still get to capacity needed (30,000 ppdph) with 125 m platforms if you switch out the LRVs to be ones like Edmonton or Calgary has.

Building something with Canada Line sized stations as a trunk line would work for a bit, and certainly save a lot, but wouldn't be forward looking.

As for the Carling Streetcar bit, do they really think they are going to get 180m trains running at the frequencies predicted without grade separation? It isn't like you are going to short turn some of the train while having 1 or 2 cars continue on.
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  #3353  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2010, 7:33 PM
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OK, the reason why we need such a deep tunnel is because of the Rideau Canal. Why not convert the MacKenzie King Bridge into transit only and build a shallow cut and cover tunnel east and west of the bridge and run the trains over the bridge? Because the tunnel will be more shallow (you can rise to the surface faster) and will not run under the canal, the overall tunnel length will be shorter and therefore cheaper. Is this feasible? This would also make for shorter escalator rides, saving travel time.

Portals for the west and east tunnels could be placed just east of Elgin Street and just west of Waller Street.
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  #3354  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2010, 8:02 PM
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The original cut and cover plan for a tunnel had a 6% grade coming up from under the canal. It was for rubber tired vehicles of course, but the stations were close to the surface. The tunnel was shorter too because it started after (or near) the campus station.
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  #3355  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2010, 8:36 PM
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Going further on my idea, why not just build a short underpass so that Waller Street and Laurier Avenue do not interfere with the operation of the train? No tunnel east of the bridge at all.
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  #3356  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2010, 8:59 PM
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Any idea which councillors are considering cancelling the tunnel portion. I don't what were they smoking, but they should not deserve re-election.
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  #3357  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2010, 9:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
OK, the reason why we need such a deep tunnel is because of the Rideau Canal. Why not convert the MacKenzie King Bridge into transit only and build a shallow cut and cover tunnel east and west of the bridge and run the trains over the bridge? Because the tunnel will be more shallow (you can rise to the surface faster) and will not run under the canal, the overall tunnel length will be shorter and therefore cheaper. Is this feasible? This would also make for shorter escalator rides, saving travel time.

Portals for the west and east tunnels could be placed just east of Elgin Street and just west of Waller Street.
Well, I’m afraid that your query begins with an invalid assumption; that the depth of the tunnel has been dictated by the Rideau Canal.

In fact the main reasons the tunnel needs to be so deep are its alignment, including the station locations, and its method of construction.

Take a look at the latest profile Staff has provided for the Rideau area:


This image includes an additional option to what the original image provided

The dark blue lines outline the Staff proposed tunnel and station locations. The red line is the level of the ‘Top of Rail’. The green line is the current ground level and the black lines are the start of weathered rock (upper line) and bedrock (lower line).There are two purple ovals marked in about the center of the profile. These are two large diameter sewers which run roughly north-south. Just left of half way, you can see in the profile that the Rideau Canal is nowhere near as deep as the two sewers.

The sewers are actually the limiting factor; and the method of construction and the pre-determined position of the station have made things even worse.

Although the tunnels themselves will be bored using a Tunnel Boring Machine (TBM) which leaves a concrete liner behind it, the station volumes will be mined out using conventional mining techniques. This means drilling and blasting to remove all the rock between the two tunnel bores and to bring down the overburden to the required height. Because there is blasting, the rock will become fractured, leading to the very real possibility of small cave-ins leading to ‘chimneys’ which extend higher than the desired height. If there is not a sufficient thickness of buffer rock between the blasting and anything above it, then the chimney could actually rise up to cause damage to whatever is above it. Worse still is that the existing foundations, sewers, etc. above the station locations have generally been dug down using blasting which has probably already fractured the rock.

So, in short, the method of creating the stations is to blast UP, into the rock above. If that rock has already been fractured by blasting DOWN from above for other reasons, then there is a good possibility that the rock will not hold itself up long enough to add supports. The tunnel sections (between the stations) are not under the same constraints because of the concrete liner which is built immediately as the TBM bores the tunnel.

The light blue lines in the above profile are my musing about moving the station west far enough to have the actual station not directly under the sewers. In this case, only the tunnel would need to pass under the sewers so the tunnel and station could be raised about 10 metres. This, however would put the station under the Confederation Square so the City will not accept it; it doesn’t service The Market and there is no station east of the canal, i.e., along Rideau. (And, heaven forbid we add an extra station under Waller.)

Anyway, my point (if you have stuck with me this far) is that the Rideau Canal is not a controlling factor in the depth of the tunnel system. In fact, if the Rideau Station were pushed east a bit, it might be possible that a shallow (Cut & Cover) tunnel could pass under the canal (dig it in the winter when it won’t drain the canal), and over the sewers. I do not know what other infrastructure is under Rideau Road to verify such an option, though.
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  #3358  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2010, 9:33 PM
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The NCC "loop" can connect the market to a more south-west transit system, though not directly. The original tunnel put the station under Daly at the Rideau Centre.
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  #3359  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2010, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Going further on my idea, why not just build a short underpass so that Waller Street and Laurier Avenue do not interfere with the operation of the train? No tunnel east of the bridge at all.
This could work, especially with an easily elevated system and would give lots of options for a truck tunnel from Nicholas to the Ottawa side of the Macdonald Cartier Bridge.

Edit: isn't the NAC parking below the West side of that bridge?
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  #3360  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2010, 9:49 PM
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This could work, especially with an easily elevated system and would give lots of options for a truck tunnel from Nicholas to the Ottawa side of the Macdonald Cartier Bridge.

Edit: isn't the NAC parking below the West side of that bridge?
Yeah, but it doesn't pass the NAC building in that area.

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