Interprovincial bridge crossing discussion

[Dado]

From that memo:

Conclusions

Roche-NCE agree with the conclusions derived in the King Edward Avenue Renewal Planning and Environmental Study Report and previous OMB decisions. While this option's ability of avoiding a new crossing is appealing, the transportation supply provided by this link is insufficient to address the future demand across the Ottawa River screenline. As such, we recommend this alternative be removed from further consideration.

In addition, although a central trucking link may be attractive to reduce effects in the downtown core (one advantage of a downtown tunnel) it continues to rely on all trucking to be funnelled downtown rather than
distributing this traffic to different crossings locations. Having more truck crossings available supports economic objectives.

It's important to understand the grounds on which a tunnel was rejected... it was rejected because it wouldn't provide much in the way of additional "transportation supply" across the river.

The irony of the study process was that the public thought it was about dealing with truck traffic downtown but it turned out to be about meeting future demand/growth. Truck traffic would remain about the same downtown (and if you look at maps of Hull and Ottawa it's not hard to see why - downtown Ottawa is right on the route between the industrial areas of Hull west of the Gatineau River and that Alta Vista/St. Laurent/Industrial areas of Ottawa).

At any rate, this memo only makes a case against favouring a tunnel instead of a new bridge; it says nothing about building a tunnel to deal with current and anticipated future truck volumes in downtown Ottawa, even with a new bridge. It comes down to which problem we want to deal with first - current problems or anticipated future problems.

[Ottawan]

Two points:

1) I really like Kitchissipi's plan - just because the Vanier Parkway connection was planned in the 1960s doesn't mean its the wrong thing. The King Edward connection is what actually happened, and it has a proven record of having failed. I quite like the concept of the elevated park, and especially of decoupling King Edward completely from MacDonald Cartier.

2) The above option or the tunnel option would NOT replace additional bridges. They MAY replace the truck traffic aspect of other bridge projects, which in turn may affect the design required for roads leading up to bridges. That being said, our bridges are all over capacity currently ignoring future demand, largely based on car traffic. Interprovincial trips will and should increase: we are one economic region and should think like one. It is environmentally friendlier to have more bridges (leading to shorter routes from less doubling back). There is a very current and urgent need for TWO bridges, one East and one West. Obviously considering the way the study has gone, there will be only one and it will be in the east, but as soon as this project is underway we need to reconsider the West end. What we need to realize is that this is about better connections between the two cities, and the integration of the region

The ideal west bridge in fact would also deal with truck traffic quite well - it would connect to the 416 on the Ottawa side, where the traffic would enter a tunnel. The tunnel would proceed under the neighbourhood and park (no expropriations, no NIMBY Andrew Haydon is ruined or traffic on neighbourhood streets complaints). On the Quebec side it would take the Boulevard Deschaines corridor, which would be extended further north to connect to Boulevard Des Allumettieres. Therefore the route would be from one highway system to another - very high capacity in easing traffic on the other bridges and providing a much needed cross-river connection from one of the fastest growing part of the region, Aylmer.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't believe people in this area are particularly organized at the community level.

This refers to people along Paiement north of Maloney.

People south of Maloney (where the new road from the bridge is to go in) apparently are more organized:
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/le-droit/actua...ce-aux-citoyens-de-gatineau-demandee.php

Note that this area is newer, more affluent and less transient than the area north of Maloney. Note also that everyone here bought their houses when information about a potential bridge was available.

The bridge in dotted lines and the new road alignment have been on maps for 20 years.

[DubberDom]

Personally, I've always been an advocate of the Tunnel under King Edward, I have no idea why they haven't really considered this one... this is a win-win-win for everybody, The infrastructure is already in place on the Quebec Side and Ontario side, It would reduce inter provincial traffic during peak hours on the already busy 174/417 and it would clean up and add beauty to the King Edward corridor.





source:
http://www.peoplefood.org/CCC/NCC/NCC-Jun18.htm


They should also extend Nicholas to Riverside through Hurdman at the same time

[blackjagger]

To me this is still the best option. I believe that in the future (10-25 years) another bridge in both the east and west ends will be needed but for the purpose of enabling better transportation and unification of the NRC as the east and west ends on both sides of the river grow, (let us hope it is well planned, dense transit oriented development). Sadly the route as shown above will shortly become more difficult with CP3&4 adding a deep structure right in the path of the route. Forward thinking would enable Ottawa to finally get transport trucks off our downtown streets.

Cheers,
Josh

[Kitchissippi]

The Nicholas interchange would never be able to handle the volume with all the traffic being funnelled down one corridor. A King Edward tunnel would be a huge cost at very small and short-lived advantage. It won't be long until back-ups would stretch from the Queensway to the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The Nicholas interchange would never be able to handle the volume with all the traffic being funnelled down one corridor. A King Edward tunnel would be a huge cost at very small and short-lived advantage. It won't be long until back-ups would stretch from the Queensway to the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge.

They would indeed have to completely reconstruct that interchange with large flyover ramps to accomodate the traffic, and that is even before any Alta Vista Corridor is built (that should wait for a Hurdman area master plan). It would require third and fourth level ramps for sure. It is feasible but extremely expensive (surely at least $200 million just for the interchange). The tunnel would also be extremely expensive, but it does help that no new bridge would be needed (the Macdonald-Cartier bridge seems to have the capacity needed).

Also any such tunnel has to be deep enough to go below the LRT tunnel.

[lrt's friend]

When you consider that exits will exist at Sussex, St. Patrick and Waller(with a very sharp ramp), are we not going to create enormous congestion at those ramps for downtown commuters? The St. Patrick ramp will also enable heavy traffic to return onto King Edward from that point south including truck traffic.

I also worry about an enormous price tag at a time when we don't even know whether we can afford to build an LRT tunnel.

Let's face it, an east end bridge is needed to shorten trip lengths between east end Gatineau and east end Ottawa and to redirect truck traffic bound for Montreal and suburban industrial parks away from downtown. We can't avoid it, it is a good investment and once we get our acts together, there will be substantial federal funding on an interprovincial bridge.

[DubberDom]

The cost to rebuilt the Nicholas interchange should be about the same coast as rebuild the Aviation Pkwy/417 interchange, plus you need to factor the additional cost to expand the 417 between the split and Nicholas, and likely having to add a lane on the Hurdman bridge. All of a sudden, you will be adding at least 2000 cars on the Ontario side every rush hour. Also, in order for traffic to flow, the Aviation parkway will need to have interchanges built at Ogilvie, Montreal and Rockcliffe parkway to ensure smooth flow.

The simple extension of Nicholas to Riverside would alleviate so many traffic problems on Nicholas and the Hurdman bridge when the bottle neck currently is.

I agree, there needs to be an east end bridge linking Orleans to Gatineau, but there are so many problems with alignments on both side of the river, especially with the projected traffic flow

[Dado]

An east-end bridge isn't going to solve a lot, and the further east it is built, the less of the current problem it solves.

The truck origin-destination studies show that the biggest origins and destinations on the Quebec side is the industrial area north of Hull and west of the Gatineau River. In Ottawa, the corresponding areas are in Alta Vista and secondarily in the Hunt Club-Merivale-Prince of Wales area. Therefore the biggest demand is still more-or-less through downtown Ottawa. That is why the consultants found that even once the Kettle Island Bridge was built that current truck volumes downtown wouldn't change by much.

The Montreal stuff is largely a fiction. To the extent it's true, it's indirect since the trucks are likely stopping in Ottawa as well.

[waterloowarrior]

Councillors meet with Baird to discuss bridge
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Councillors+meet+with+Baird+discuss+bridge/2698940/story.html

BY NECO COCKBURN , THE OTTAWA CITIZENMARCH 18, 2010 7:02 PMBE THE FIRST TO POST A COMMENT


OTTAWA — A group of east-side councillors and community advocates met with Transport Minister John Baird Thursday afternoon to make a clear point about a new interprovincial bridge: Don't build it at Lower Duck Island or McLaurin Bay.

Orléans Councillor Bob Monette, Innes Councillor Rainer Bloess and Cumberland Councillor Rob Jellett wanted to impress upon the Ottawa West-Nepean MP their opposition to the two possible routes that the National Capital Commission added to a detailed study after a consultant made a preliminary recommendation that a new bridge should cross the Ottawa River at Kettle Island.

Although the NCC-hired consultant recommended Kettle Island, north of the Aviation Parkway, as the best site, the commission’s board chose last winter to expand the number of potential routes it would study to include Lower Duck Island and McLaurin Bay, which are farther east.

The councillors say those routes would carve up the Greenbelt and make traffic problems worse. Nor would these routes stop trucks from rolling through downtown Ottawa on their way to and from the Macdonald-Cartier bridge.

“Study after study after study has shown that Kettle Island is the appropriate place to have an interprovincial bridge,” said Bloess, adding the councillors are also concerned that the bridge study is “out of sync” with an ongoing Greenbelt Master Plan review that’s being conducted by the NCC.

Jellett said a bridge across the Greenbelt would be more expensive and would add to traffic problems in east Ottawa and the Highway 417 and 174 split without solving the “city’s truck routing problem.”

The councillors wanted to tell Baird “why it was important for the community of Orléans that the consultation process is done properly, that the options, especially the Kettle Island option, are looked at properly. We believe it is the ideal crossing for the future bridge location,” said Monette.

Ottawa-Orléans MP Royal Galipeau helped the group get its meeting, and the councillors were joined by representatives of Common Sense Crossings, a community group.

Group member Alexa Brewer said they’re concerned about potential destruction of the Greenbelt and believe a decision on a bridge needs to be made in the context of studies that have not yet been completed as well as a “comprehensive integrated regional transit plan” that doesn’t currently exist.

“It’s time to stop, press pause,” Brewer said.

“We’ve got a lot of different pieces of the plan but no one full plan. We need some data, and I think we need to sit down and look at this in the cold light of day.”

A new interprovincial bridge is likely to face criticism from area residents no matter what location is proposed. People living in Rockcliffe and Manor Park oppose the Kettle Island route.

The NCC’s study of the three bridge options is expected to take until 2013.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Councillors meet with Baird to discuss bridge
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Councillors+meet+with+Baird+discuss+bridge/2698940/story.html

BY NECO COCKBURN , THE OTTAWA CITIZENMARCH 18, 2010 7:02 PMBE THE FIRST TO POST A COMMENT

...... People living in Rockcliffe and Manor Park oppose the Kettle Island route.

The NCC’s study of the three bridge options is expected to take until 2013.

I am sure that Cockburn meant to say that SOME people living in Manor Park oppose the Kettle Island route. Some have no problem with the idea.

[Ottawan]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

The NCC’s study of the three bridge options is expected to take until 2013.

Sorry... the STUDY takes until 2013??? Hasn't it already been going on for 2-3 years? When will another much-needed bridge actually get built? Ever???

[waterloowarrior]

Upcoming Public Consultations on the

Interprovincial Crossings Environmental Assessment Study

Canada's Capital Region — On Tuesday, March 30 and Wednesday, March 31, Public Sessions will be held in Ottawa and Gatineau, respectively, as part of Phase 2A of the Interprovincial Crossings Environmental Assessment (EA) Study. Members of the public will be given an opportunity to provide input on the draft Study Design report (process and methodology) that will be used at Phase 2B, the Study's concluding phase, to identify a recommended bridge crossing in the Region's east end.

The communities of Ottawa and Gatineau are invited to review information boards, consult with Study experts, and provide comment on the draft Study Design report, anytime between 4:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. at the following locations:

Ottawa


Tuesday, March 30, 2010

4:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m.

Ottawa City Hall - Jean Pigott Hall

110 Laurier Avenue West, Ottawa, ON

Gatineau


Wednesday, March 31, 2010

4:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m.

Maison du Citoyen - Agora

25, rue Laurier, Gatineau, QC

The Study is made up of two phases. Phase 1, which was completed in January 2009, looked at a number of corridors throughout the Region. Now at Phase 2, the Study is looking more closely at the three locations which received the highest ratings at Phase 1. The mandate of Phase 2A, the current stage, is to consult with members of the public and stakeholders to develop a Study Design and a Canadian Environmental Assessment Act Scoping Document. The Study Design will include a process and methodology that will be used at Phase 2B to identify a recommended crossing location. No decision on the bridge location will be taken at Phase 2A.

This Study is being led by the funding partnership of the National Capital Commission (NCC), the Ontario Ministry of Transportation (MTO) and the ministère des Transports du Québec (MTQ). It is being guided by a Study Team consisting of the funding partners and the cities of Ottawa and Gatineau. A consultant team lead by Co-Enterprise AECOM-Delcan has been retained for Phase 2A.

For more information on the Interprovincial Crossings EA Study, please visit the website at www.ncrcrossings.ca.

[DubberDom]

Originally Posted by Ottawan

Sorry... the STUDY takes until 2013??? Hasn't it already been going on for 2-3 years? When will another much-needed bridge actually get built? Ever???

I'm with you on this one... looks like environmental and engineering firms are raking in the dough on all these assessments... as usual...

[cityguy]

Everything takes forever in Canada,it will take several more years and all we'll end up with is a non-decript bridge.

[harls]

At the rate the river is descending this year, maybe it will be dry enough to drive across. Who needs a bridge?

[TransitZilla]

One of the candidates running in Orleans has come out in favour of the King Edward Tunnel option.

I think his argument makes a lot of sense.

http://www.fredsherwin.ca/pages/interprovincial.htm

[blackjagger]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

One of the candidates running in Orleans has come out in favour of the King Edward Tunnel option.

I think his argument makes a lot of sense.

http://www.fredsherwin.ca/pages/interprovincial.htm

If only. Instead we will contiune to have 18 wheelers rubbling down our city streets.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I like that Fred Sherwin guy. While I wouldn't mind seeing another interprovincial bridge and I still think that Manor Park residents need to shut up with their silly claims, a tunnel under King Edward could work.