Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[twoNeurons]

If the NDP came back into power, it's likely they would just bill the M-Line West as a continuation of their previous line that they started... and blame the current gov't for stalling it in the first place.

All this is a clear case of selfishness. Politicians not thinking about the people they are supposed to lead... but rather lloking for reasons to have their own backs patted.

It's as if these parties built the lines with shovels themselves.

Gimme a break, the only positive thing that political parties seem to do when it comes to transit is not preventing them from going ahead.

They should do more of that inaction and let them be built... instead of imposing their own agenda.

[Zassk]

Indeed, the Canada Line is in many ways a vindication of the Socred's original SkyTrain plan, which called for the RAV line to be built first in the mid-90's, immediately after the Surrey extension. I remember how, with a sinking feeling, I read that the NDP had banished the RAV line into a footnote with an estimated completion date of 2017 (i.e. 25 years into the future at the time) - basically delaying it by 20 years from the original plan. Gordo's fast-tracking RAV for the Olympics was only 7 years earlier than Harcourt's plan, and about 15 years later than Vander Zalm's plan.

When the Millennium Line was built, I remember that some of the editorial commentary noted that the least important sections were being built first - particularly the Columbia-to-Lougheed segment which had been somewhat of an afterthought in the original vision for the line. The M-line was intended to be an east-west line crucially starting no further east than VGH. The NDP just built the cheapest section that touched the most NDP ridings for $1 billion, and then simultaneously spent $2.1 billion on the Island Highway instead (a highway that was sorely needed, but could have been built at half the cost or less).

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Zassk

The NDP just built the cheapest section that touched the most NDP ridings for $1 billion, and then simultaneously spent $2.1 billion on the Island Highway instead (a highway that was sorely needed, but could have been built at half the cost or less).

The Island highway really was a kick in the groin to almost everybody in the province. It should have at least been tolled.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Indeed, the Canada Line is in many ways a vindication of the Socred's original SkyTrain plan, which called for the RAV line to be built first in the mid-90's, immediately after the Surrey extension. I remember how, with a sinking feeling, I read that the NDP had banished the RAV line into a footnote with an estimated completion date of 2017 (i.e. 25 years into the future at the time) - basically delaying it by 20 years from the original plan. Gordo's fast-tracking RAV for the Olympics was only 7 years earlier than Harcourt's plan, and about 15 years later than Vander Zalm's plan.

When the Millennium Line was built, I remember that some of the editorial commentary noted that the least important sections were being built first - particularly the Columbia-to-Lougheed segment which had been somewhat of an afterthought in the original vision for the line. The M-line was intended to be an east-west line crucially starting no further east than VGH. The NDP just built the cheapest section that touched the most NDP ridings, and then simultaneously spent $2.1 billion on the Island Highway instead (a highway that was sorely needed, but could have been built at half the cost or less).

It is my recollection that the 'millennium line' as originally planned was to run from Vancouver (Arbutus St, VGH, Cambie St, Main St - depending on where RAV was put) to Coquitlam through North Burnaby as a stand-alone line using LRT or something else other than SkyTraiin.

Then the politicians started fiddling & the NDP wasn't happy about putting in SkyTrain in a Liberal Vancouver riding, and it got chopped back to Clark (in a safe & solid NDP riding). As they dithered, the price went up and BC finances got worse, so Coquitlam got chopped to save money. Now it was no longer a self-contained line that had a place for its OMC (originally supposed to be in Coquitlam where there was cheap land), so adding the Columbia-to-Lougheed segment was cheaper than building to Coquitlam, and therefore it became SkyTrain instead of LRT. Now there was a way to get Millennium line cars to Edmonds OMC for storage & maintenance, and a way to get North Burnaby passengers to Surrey (with a transfer at Columbia).


With Liberal ridings all the way to UBC after Main St, it may happen under the Liberal banner, but there has to be a way for the Liberal MLAs to get the benefits (votes) without the detriments (voter anger with cut & cover; time & money wasted on pork projects going over budget & over schedule).

Another problem is that knowing there's an election every three years, they need to get the timing right so they can announce start of construction before an election campaign (and swing some votes their way), and have construction finished (or nearly done) when the next election campaign rolls around (see the shiney bauble I gave you? - vote again for me to get more treats).

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The Island highway really was a kick in the groin to almost everybody in the province. It should have at least been tolled.

And if you look at the deficits from those years, you see that the Island Hwy was basically built entirely on debt.

Anyway, back to Broadway...

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Another problem is that knowing there's an election every three years, they need to get the timing right so they can announce start of construction before an election campaign (and swing some votes their way), and have construction finished (or nearly done) when the next election campaign rolls around (see the shiney bauble I gave you? - vote again for me to get more treats).

All political parties do this. The liberals did it with all the Gateway projects and Canada Line.

Notice how the construction for the new Port Mann and Hwy 1 started just before the last election. Nothing much might have been done, but they had the construction vehicles out and about.

Now I'm not saying the NDP or the Green party or what ever party is in power. Because they all do the same damn thing.

The bigger problem is how people vote for a party based on projects.

[Millennium2002]

In a way politics needs to be overhauled based on the fact that almost every improvement that is needed here is somehow tied up like a leash to whichever party that gets elected. It's quite sad actually... if this sort of game keeps happening we'll barely get things done....

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

In a way politics needs to be overhauled based on the fact that almost every improvement that is needed here is somehow tied up like a leash to whichever party that gets elected. It's quite sad actually... if this sort of game keeps happening we'll barely get things done....

Very sad, and rather pathetic. Too bad that once a project is designed, approved,and the funds allocated, that a contractual agreement isn't put in place that must, by law, be honoured by the next party taking office to continue with that project to provide a sort of "seamless web."

That way, we'd have some assurance that what was planned is going to happen. I'm a dreamer, I guess, and a naïve one at that ....

[ozonemania]

Oh, I'm not sure having political process driving infrastructure/development is such a bad thing. At least things get in the pipeline every 3-4 years.

I think alot of this comes from Vancouver and the province still being so young. There's no denying that this town is alot less developed and mature than our eastern counterparts. So our politics reflect that -- building-up, attracting new migrants, etc.

Of course it would be nice if our politics were more well-rounded to things like civic issues... or that it wasn't such a circus gong show.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Very sad, and rather pathetic. Too bad that once a project is designed, approved,and the funds allocated, that a contractual agreement isn't put in place that must, by law, be honoured by the next party taking office to continue with that project to provide a sort of "seamless web."

That way, we'd have some assurance that what was planned is going to happen. I'm a dreamer, I guess, and a naïve one at that ....

While I like the idea of keeping things going. The problem is what if a party wins a vote. Because they campaigned against some project that the previous party was looking to build.

To me the problem isn't that the idea of projects start and stop. It is that political parties use these projects to get votes.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by ozonemania

Oh, I'm not sure having political process driving infrastructure/development is such a bad thing. At least things get in the pipeline every 3-4 years.

I think alot of this comes from Vancouver and the province still being so young. There's no denying that this town is alot less developed and mature than our eastern counterparts. So our politics reflect that -- building-up, attracting new migrants, etc.

Of course it would be nice if our politics were more well-rounded to things like civic issues... or that it wasn't such a circus gong show.

I'm pretty sure the same political process happens in other cities in the western world.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

It is my recollection that the 'millennium line' as originally planned was to run from Vancouver (Arbutus St, VGH, Cambie St, Main St - depending on where RAV was put) to Coquitlam through North Burnaby as a stand-alone line using LRT or something else other than SkyTraiin.

Then the politicians started fiddling & the NDP wasn't happy about putting in SkyTrain in a Liberal Vancouver riding, and it got chopped back to Clark (in a safe & solid NDP riding). As they dithered, the price went up and BC finances got worse, so Coquitlam got chopped to save money. Now it was no longer a self-contained line that had a place for its OMC (originally supposed to be in Coquitlam where there was cheap land), so adding the Columbia-to-Lougheed segment was cheaper than building to Coquitlam, and therefore it became SkyTrain instead of LRT. Now there was a way to get Millennium line cars to Edmonds OMC for storage & maintenance, and a way to get North Burnaby passengers to Surrey (with a transfer at Columbia).

Also bear in mind that the Livable Region Strategic Plan contained the "T" line - which is the Columbia to Lougheed segment. So that segment didn't come out of thin air.
If the Broadway-Lougheed segment had been LRT, the Columbia-Lougheed segment would have eventually been built as LRT as well.
If I recall correctly, the insistence of the various municipalities for LRT underpasses at major intersections caused the cost of LRT to rise, approaching SkyTrain cost - so they switched to SkyTrain for higher capacity.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The Island highway really was a kick in the groin to almost everybody in the province. It should have at least been tolled.

And this is echoed with the Sea to Sky, another kick in the groin to those in the interior especially.

I like the Island highway, but I actually think it should have been built to full freeway standard, not random interchanges and traffic lights.

Sorry to go off topic

[WarrenC12]

The Sea to Sky was less expensive and serves more people... but there's an argument to toll any large project at this point.

[Metro-One]

I think claiming that the sea to sky serves more people is hilarious. Actually look at the population of mid and north island before you claim such nonsense.

The Inland Island Highway directly serves these communities:

Nanaimo - 92 361 metro
Comox / Courtenay - 49 214
Campbell River - 32 000

along with a few smaller communities.

And it is the trunk line leading to all North Island communities such as Port Hardy and also for the first 20 to 30 km of its length services those going to west Island communities such as Port Alberni and Tofino.

It is a working highway for an entire region.

The Sea to sky directly services:

Squamish & area - 14 949
Whistler - 9 241

and then it acts as the trunk line for Pemberton and a few smaller communities along its route. Once you reach areas such as Lillooet most people will choose to use the Canyon for their travel.

While I personally am not against either expansions I do feel the Island expansion is more just for it services more people and more varied economic activities

Your feeling towards the island Highway being worse that it is not tolled than the Sea to Sky expansion is simply based on which political party you prefer, and that perfectly displays the problem with this province.

I am tired of the "If the NDP did it, then it is bad and a boondoggle, but if the Liberals did it, it is great!"

and the reverse "If the Liberals did it, then it is bad and a boondoggle, but if the NDP did it, it is great!"

And this mentality leads to such problems as we are having with the Broadway mass transit expansion.

[racc]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The Sea to Sky was less expensive and serves more people... but there's an argument to toll any large project at this point.

Only around 14,000 vehicles per day use the busiest sections of Sea to Sky. There was really no need to invest so much money in it. Not a very good use of taxpayer dollars. They should have just fixed the worse safety problems and called it a day. The rest could have been spent upgrading rail service. It was hilarious that Alberta scooped the train to smooze VIPs and business leaders during the Olympics who did not want to use the new expensive highway.

[KPELLY]

The new highway is actually called the Inland Island Highway. The Island Highway follows the coast. The Inland Island Highway cuts the travel time between Nanaimo and Campbell River from 2.5 hours to around 1.5 hours and is vital for the Island's transportation.

[giallo]

While the Sea to Sky highway was expensive, I think it will be worth it in the long run. I mean, is everyone forgetting where the road goes to and how much that location bring in tourist dollar-wise to the province? The amount of growth Whistler has seen and will continue to see needed to be addressed. That donkey trail leading up to the resort was a dangerous embarrassment. An upgrade was definitely needed.

[Zassk]

The Sea to Sky could not have been built for much less money without compromising on the safety aspect of the project. That said, the Island Highway is overdue for its own "Sea to Sky project" in the form of the Malahat section, and I do hope that the Malahat is built to at least the standards of the Sea to Sky, if not better.

[ozonemania]

Originally Posted by giallo

While the Sea to Sky highway was expensive, I think it will be worth it in the long run. I mean, is everyone forgetting where the road goes to and how much that location bring in tourist dollar-wise to the province? The amount of growth Whistler has seen and will continue to see needed to be addressed. That donkey trail leading up to the resort was a dangerous embarrassment. An upgrade was definitely needed.

On a personal note the highway upgrade was important for me, as I had a close family friend die along there, having driven off the edge into a steep escarpment, and was missing for weeks.