Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

No stadium would work anywhere close to the harbour unless it was a dome that was fully enclosed. This was a major concern with the Shannon Park idea and I agree.

As a longtime sailor in our harbour I can tell you that any football thrown into the air would be be so blown off course that playing the sport would be impossible. Field goal kicks would never make it in... either being blown back due to a head wind or wayy off course to the left or right of the uprights.

I still think the Willow Park Memorial Stadium is the best concept...

I agree the Willow Park location would be ideal. I just wonder if it will be available.

[hfx_chris]

I still maintain Huskies Stadium needs to be renovated... start there

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by reddog794

Who owns Queen Square?

Queen Square owns Queen Square.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

I still maintain Huskies Stadium needs to be renovated... start there

I agree... it can be a starting point... get some cash flow going and could be jointly funded by SMU and the new franchise.

During this time the new stadium could be conceptualized and funding secured from different levels of government and the private sector.

[isaidso]

What sized stadium would south end residents tolerate? Ultimately, Halifax needs to decide what a football stadium needs to accomplish before it decides on a location.

- a football stadium for the Huskies?
- a shared football stadium for the Huskies and a future Tigers team?
- a joint collegiate/pro football stadium?
- a multi purpose stadium?

Only when those answers are nailed down will the best location be easier to determine.

Honestly, I'd prefer to see collegiate and pro sports separated. A CFL suitable football stadium would be too cavernous for the needs of CIS. Look at the McMahon Stadium and Molson Stadium. The CIS teams get lost in those college football facilities.

Some may argue that cost dictates that a facility must be shared, but what's the point if those it is built for struggle because the facility doesn't meet their needs. SMU football is a success. Don't mess with it by trying to cater to too many interest groups.

The Huskies certainly deserve new digs, but shouldn't be thinking in terms of making a facility CFL sized. They should build a 8,000-12,000 seat stadium for themselves, or make overtures to Dalhousie University. They're fielding a club football team this year, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Dal back playing CIS football within 10 years.

Building a stadium half way between Dal and SMU would free up all that land where Huskies Stadium now sits, and yet still provide a stadium that feels like an on campus stadium for both schools. Studley Field at Dal is equally land constricted.

In the end, Halifax may end up with 3 stadia. An 8,000-12,000 seat stadium on the SMU campus, a 3,000-5,000 seat stadium at Studley Field @ Dal, and a 25,000 seat stadium somewhere else.

Dal is obviously far fetched at this point, but we're talking about the biggest school in the Maritimes. If they do rejoin CIS football, I bet their program would quickly grow in stature and rival the one at SMU. People underestimate how many Dal students and alumni long for college football's return to their school.

[fenwick16]

About a month ago I pasted the Percival Molson Stadium over the SMU Football field. I thought that there would be enough room, however there really isn't; the SMU Tower Fitness Facility prevents a major expansion of the SMU Stadium to 20,000 - 25,000 seats. It would likely only cost a few million to renovate the Huskies Stadium so that it would hold 5,000 - 10,000 which makes sense for CIS football. It is probably possible to get funding from alumni and SMU football fans for such a renovation.

On the other hand, Halifax has reached a population where it makes sense to have a 15,000 seat municipal stadium that can be used for concerts, football, soccer, possibly baseball, etc. A 15,000 seat stadium could be built for about $25 million that would allow for 40,000 - 45,000 for concerts (with people on the field). Then if there is a opportunity for Halifax to get a CFL team it could be quickly expanded to 25,000. I think that if Halifax had a 15,000 seat stadium, then almost immediately there would be businessmen considering placing a CFL team in the Halifax area.

This is the overlay of the Percival Molson Stadium on the SMU field.

[isaidso]

The Huskies stadium site is very tight. Not only is the site tight, but the number of rows in Molson Stadium would necessitate that the upper rows tower high over The Tower on one side and meet Loyola residence perhaps as many as 10 floors up on the other. Neither result is appealing.

There are things one can do to fit a 20,000 seat stadium there though. Start the upper rows of seating at the roof height of The Tower, then continue down till you get about 7,000 seats. This would mean lowering the field quite a bit from where it lies now.

Building back up the other side with another stand of equal size would create a stadium of about 14,000. Using this design and capacity on each side, you avoid towering over the athletic centre or abutting up to Loyola.

Where to put the additional 6,000 seats? 3,000 at each end. Having lowered the field, there's room to add these end zone seats without causing too many issues with the buildings at the north and south end zones.

You might want to use Ron Joyce stadium as a template. It's much easier to use than Molson. Their is no athletics track, and just one grand stand seating 6,000. It's easier to cut and paste another stand on the other side to get a 12,000 seater. If there is enough room, you could easily add more seats to either side, play around with it a bit, and estimate what the largest capacity you could fit at Huskies Stadium without end zone seats. Here's MAC's new football stadium:

Ron Joyce Stadium

http://www.cpci.ca/images.asp?month=82008&image=1.jpg

It's quite easy to see that if MAC built that stand all the way around, they'd have a stadium with a capacity of about 6,000+6,000+3,000+3,000=18,000. (The end zone stand would be roughly half the size of the grand stand.) Ron Joyce cost $43 million and was built in 2008.

[fenwick16]

I think that lowering the SMU field by 10 - 15 feet and removing the track would make a 20,000 seat stadium possible at SMU if there is a will to do so at SMU.

The Ron Joyce Stadium price is high (about $7000 per seat) because of the parking built under the field and other luxuries. More economically priced stadiums have been built for about $2000 per seat (and even less). A lot of luxury items such as media rooms and luxury locker rooms could be left out of a municipal stadium until absolutely required.

It would be interesting to find out if there is the will at SMU to build a 20,000 seat stadium (if the funding was available). It is possible that SMU would not want a 20,000 seat stadium on campus even if they had the funding. Then there is the question of whether or not they would allow it to be used for concerts and other municipal events.

[isaidso]

I agree regarding the feasibility of fitting a 20,000 seater here. I really doubt SMU would want to go that large though. They're more inclined to want a 10,000-12,000 seat stadium or something like MAC's stadium, but with stands on both sides.

Despite the popularity of college football in Nova Scotia, attendance at Saint Mary's football games isn't comparable to Laval, or even Maine. Of course, a modern stadium with no track could easily bump attendance to the 10,000-12,000 range over night.

Concerts? That looks like a non-starter due to the location.

[MaritimeCFLFan]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

No stadium would work anywhere close to the harbour unless it was a dome that was fully enclosed. This was a major concern with the Shannon Park idea and I agree.

As a longtime sailor in our harbour I can tell you that any football thrown into the air would be be so blown off course that playing the sport would be impossible. Field goal kicks would never make it in... either being blown back due to a head wind or wayy off course to the left or right of the uprights.

I still think the Willow Park Memorial Stadium is the best concept...

I'd also support the Willow Park Memorial Stadium concept. Perhaps public support would be even stronger than we see in this current poll if a memorial theme in selling the new stadium idea is used.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by MaritimeCFLFan

I'd also support the Willow Park Memorial Stadium concept. Perhaps public support would be even stronger than we see in this current poll if a memorial theme in selling the new stadium idea is used.

I really like the name and historical tie in... its like our Old Trafford type of thing

[isaidso]

Is there a thread, link, or information about the Willow Park Memorial Stadium concept? I do like the name Memorial even though I'm partial to seeing the 'Atlantic Bowl' name resurrected.

[fenwick16]

Willow Park refers to the DND Willow Park location which is north of the Halifax Forum and directly next to the Super Centre grocery store at Young and Windsor. Part of this site is presently vacant and part of it is used for salvaging old military vehicles (I have heard it being referred to as a military scrap yard). This has good transit connections, is close to the 102 highway, close to both bridges, and although a long walk - it is within walking distance of Dalhousie University, SMU and Mount Saint Vincent University (all about 4 - 5 km).

The memorial name comes from the fact that it is only about a kilometer or so from the site of the Halifax Explosion which will be 100 years ago in 1917.

There is also quite a bit of parking in that area (although some of the parking is occupied by car dealerships).

[planarchy]

Are sports teams worth all the trouble?


RICHARD WOODBURY
METRO CANADA
June 14, 2010 9:00 a.m.


With a strong desire to bring an NHL franchise to cities such as Winnipeg, Quebec City and Hamilton, there is often talk of the economic benefits the teams would bring to the communities. It’s Brad Humphreys' job to tell people the disheartening news.

“I’ve got to basically tell people all the time, ‘Well, I’m sorry if these people have told you that a new hockey team in your community is going to be really beneficial economically. There’s no evidence to support that and it’s a money-losing proposition for the local community and only a money-making proposition for the team owner and players,” says the sports economist who teaches at the University of Alberta.

His 10 years of research indicates this is true for all sports.

...

“It’s almost certainly not beneficial for a local economy,” says Humphreys. “It probably costs a lot more than whatever return you get back out of it.”
The Olympics are expensive to host because of the specialized facilities and enormous security costs. Other problems can crop up as well, such as the Athletes Village fiasco in Vancouver.

“That blew up on them,” he says, adding that taxpayers are now on the hook for the facility.

Humphreys is no longer the sports fan he once was and this is because of his profession.

“Once I started doing this research on public subsidies for professional sports facilities, it kind of made me less of a sports fan,” says the one-time Baltimore Orioles season ticket holder.

Humphreys used to be able to admire a ballpark for its structure and beauty, but “now when I go to a ballpark, all I can think about is, ‘Well, how badly did local government get hosed out of money when this facility was built?’”

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by planarchy

Are sports teams worth all the trouble?


RICHARD WOODBURY
METRO CANADA
June 14, 2010 9:00 a.m.


With a strong desire to bring an NHL franchise to cities such as Winnipeg, Quebec City and Hamilton, there is often talk of the economic benefits the teams would bring to the communities. It’s Brad Humphreys' job to tell people the disheartening news.

“I’ve got to basically tell people all the time, ‘Well, I’m sorry if these people have told you that a new hockey team in your community is going to be really beneficial economically. There’s no evidence to support that and it’s a money-losing proposition for the local community and only a money-making proposition for the team owner and players,” says the sports economist who teaches at the University of Alberta.

His 10 years of research indicates this is true for all sports.

...

“It’s almost certainly not beneficial for a local economy,” says Humphreys. “It probably costs a lot more than whatever return you get back out of it.”
The Olympics are expensive to host because of the specialized facilities and enormous security costs. Other problems can crop up as well, such as the Athletes Village fiasco in Vancouver.

“That blew up on them,” he says, adding that taxpayers are now on the hook for the facility.

Humphreys is no longer the sports fan he once was and this is because of his profession.

“Once I started doing this research on public subsidies for professional sports facilities, it kind of made me less of a sports fan,” says the one-time Baltimore Orioles season ticket holder.

Humphreys used to be able to admire a ballpark for its structure and beauty, but “now when I go to a ballpark, all I can think about is, ‘Well, how badly did local government get hosed out of money when this facility was built?’”

I agree with this in terms of the NHL, MLB and NFL (for smaller markets). However, the CFL is well suited to Halifax because of its low payroll and its recognition throughout Canada.

PS: I have to wonder about this Humphreys - the Baltimore Orioles have one of the most scenic baseball parks in MLB at one of the lowest costs. However, if the article was about the extravagant salaries and lack of loyalty of NHL, MLB, NBA, and NFL players then I would agree 100% - I tuned out of most of these sports many years ago for this reason. However, again because of the low salaries in the CFL there is more of a reason to root for the players. This is another reason why I think Haligonians would prefer a scenic outdoor stadium (think in terms of the Yale Bowl) at a reasonable price. I don't think that most Maritimers want unnecessary extravagance, just something unique.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Fenwick - can you give me the rough dimensions of this stadium if it were a full oval? I was out for a jog along Calgary's bow river and I had a thought about this...but I need the dimensions.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Fenwick - can you give me the rough dimensions of this stadium if it were a full oval? I was out for a jog along Calgary's bow river and I had a thought about this...but I need the dimensions.

I just uploaded a copy to the Google 3D Warehouse (if you type Halifax, Nova Scotia, Stadium) you should see it. If you would like to modify it, go ahead. This was intended to be expandable by adding an upper tier of seats (it could easily be expanded to 30,000 permanent seats and more with temporary seats - for the Grey Cup for example). As it is drawn, it is about 16,300 seats - it could also have 25,000 - 30,000 on the field for concerts.

I left one end open for concerts; a band could set up at the open end.

I should have made one change prior to starting this Sketchup model - I should have changed the Sketchup Entity Info for the curve to increase the number of segments in the curved section (to give a smoother curve).

This stadium would be suitable for softball, little league baseball, soccer, Canadian football, and concerts.

If it were a full oval, it would be 745 ft long x 505 ft wide x 30 ft deep (this would include a 40 foot wide concourse all around).

PS: As you can see this model is far from complete - there are no washrooms or changerooms. If a second raised tier of seats were built then the washrooms could be built under this second level (on the concourse level).

[halifaxboyns]

Using the assumption of 500' wide for the the stadium plus room for a walkway; I've measured out from the shoreline of two locations in HRM: The first being beside the Nova Scotia Power Office by the farmers market and the second being by Alderney landing.

Now I think 500' was probably too narrow; but I measured out 150m (which is about 500', but you can imagine a wider parcel if need be). I believe the length I drew was at least 800' - I may have been off. But I've measured off roughly the size fenwick indicated for a stadium on fill in the harbour.

Thoughts? You will note that the viewplanes only touch portions of the Halifax parcel - while the Dartmouth one is fully enclosed in 2 viewplanes.

[fenwick16]

Wouldn't the one on the Halifax side be in the way of cruise ships?

Although a harbour-front stadium would look great on the skyline, quite a few people have expressed concerns with cool wind and fog. Possibly the cool wind effect could be mitigated if the stadium was a complete bowl (not a dome).

PS: I think that a stadium could be built low enough to avoid the viewplanes. It wouldn't have to be as high as the Calgary McMahon Stadium (the seats could be built all around and it could be a compact stadium like the Molson Percival Stadium at McGill U. - such a stadium would give a better spectator experience)

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Wouldn't the one on the Halifax side be in the way of cruise ships?

Although a harbour-front stadium would look great on the skyline, quite a few people have expressed concerns with cool wind and fog. Possibly the cool wind effect could be mitigated if the stadium was a complete bowl (not a dome).

PS: I think that a stadium could be built low enough to avoid the viewplanes. It wouldn't have to be as high as the Calgary McMahon Stadium (the seats could be built all around and it could be a compact stadium like the Molson Percival Stadium at McGill U. - such a stadium would give a better spectator experience)

I was thinking more of an enclosed stadium. I believe it would impact some of the cruise ships - but the new parcel that would be created could then have docks wrapping around it - so in the end probably create even more cruise ship parking.

It would also tie in well with the waterfront boardwalk and the farmers market as a main draw and be not too far from the ferry terminal.