Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I was thinking (again) about this stadium discussion and I wonder if the big parcel of land behind King's Wharf might work for a stadium? When I say 'big piece' I'm talking about all the in industrial/heavy commercial land to the west (I think it's west) of the canal and just above the CNR ROW.

It looks like it's all really old, run down industrial/commercial and if the slips are gone, it may not been needed anymore - although it also would be a great candidate for 'King's Wharf Phase 2' or maybe 'Queens Wharf'?

But if you closed down Canal Street at Mill Lane, you'd have a pretty big square parcel there - or even an L shaped one if you took all the land up to Portland Street.

Would be a great location in terms of Transit access (since its a short walk to the Ferry Terminal and Alderney Bus Terminal) and would add to the redevelopment of the Dartmouth side. The other idea I had was somehow build it above the CNR rail tracks on the empty parking lot and perhaps extending over the harbour slightly (near Alderney Gate). The only problem is the engineering of actually having the structure but elevated above the rail - plus I wonder if it could even happen with the viewplanes there. Certainly the Canal Street location would work and no view plane problems, but with so little land in DT Dartmouth unfettered by viewplanes, would this be worth it?

It is good to see that you are thinking about this. I have been spending quite a bit of time on this in my spare time (as a hobby). I think that the biggest challenge with regards to getting a municipal stadium in Halifax will be to come up with a stadium concept that can be used for the maximum number of purposes. I think that a Not For Profit organization will have to be set up and money will have to be raised publicly. So the stadium will have to be useful for concerts, football, baseball, soccer, etc. However, since Halifax doesn't currently have a CFL team it should be primarily designed as a concert venue that can be used for these other purposes by future expansion.

I think that a practical design will be one that can be built for $20 - $30 million dollars. I did a 3D Setchup of an amphitheater/football stadium. One extravagance that this contains is all fold-up seats since this gives the best access with the widest row clearance. I don't think that the seats will be the major cost of such a stadium.

The model below would seat about 16,000. The seats could be accessed from both field level and the top of the stadium. I have not drawn in the washrooms, but I think there should be washrooms located at both the top and bottom of the stadium since for concerts this would hold about 25,000 - 30,000 people on the field and about 16,000 in the stands (for a total of about 41,000 - 46,000). The field level capacity number is based on one person per 5 square feet (similar to the number of people per square feet in the stands).

What are people's thoughts on this design below? In order to set up a non-profit organization to fund such a stadium we will need some Halifax area councillors involved since otherwise it will go nowhere. I don't think we can expect funding from the HRM because of the current funding deficit. Likewise with the provincial and federal governments. Even once a Not For Profit organization is set up this could take several years and a lot of work promoting it. Such a group (FAN) was able to get the HP Pavilion built in San Jose that the San Jose Sharks of the NHL currently play in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_Pavilion_at_San_Jose .

I have it drawn as being in a wide open field which isn't realistic, however, this type of design could fit in well in the hilly areas of Halifax and Dartmouth (since the curved part of the stadium could be built into the side of a hill).

[halifaxboyns]

The sketch up concept is interesting - but I'm wondering if it would be better if the stadium were completely enclosed, with a roof as well? The more I think about the fact the weather in Halifax changing all the time - the more I'm inclined to think a fully enclosed facility that would have you not exposed to the weather would be better.

Locationally - I think the parcel I suggested seems workable. The only other location I can think of would be to involve the facility as part of the redevelopment of Shannon Park - but then that would involve some major transportation connections (maybe a ferry).

[fenwick16]

I think it would be great to have a stadium with the capability of being completely covered but still open when the weather is nice. I think though that if Halifax waits for such a facility (retractable roof facility) then it could be 20 - 30 years before the HRM can afford it .

If the HRM starts with the lower bowl of a stadium that can be expanded in the future then all of the seats could be covered but have the field open (once complete). That would be better than many of the stadiums in large cities across Canada (except the Rogers Centre, Olympic Stadium and BC place). Many people don't like totally enclosed stadiums since they look quite gloomy inside. The Kingdome in Seattle was torn down, probably the Metrodome in Minneapolis will be torn down in the future, the Silverdome in the suburbs of Detroit was just sold at auction for a bit over $500,000 dollars (500 thousand dollars). Montreal has talked about tearing down Olympic Stadium but the cost would be too high. The trend now is retractable roof stadiums or completely open stadiums. In most stadiums in Britain and Europe the seats are completely covered but the field is open (some have retractable roofs).

I have to agree that for the Maritime weather having shelter from the rain (and sun) will be important. I think that the HRM has to walk before it can run - start with something basic that can be expanded. This is what has been the case with most other cities in Canada - they have started small and then expanded or replaced the smaller stadiums with newer larger stadiums. Another thing to consider is that once a stadium is completely enclosed then the building code requirements will be much more stringent since it will require fire doors, firewalls, sprinklers, etc that an outdoor open stadium will not require (although it would still have to be built according to building codes with proper escape routes).

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I was thinking (again) about this stadium discussion and I wonder if the big parcel of land behind King's Wharf might work for a stadium? When I say 'big piece' I'm talking about all the in industrial/heavy commercial land to the west (I think it's west) of the canal and just above the CNR ROW.

It looks like it's all really old, run down industrial/commercial and if the slips are gone, it may not been needed anymore - although it also would be a great candidate for 'King's Wharf Phase 2' or maybe 'Queens Wharf'?

But if you closed down Canal Street at Mill Lane, you'd have a pretty big square parcel there - or even an L shaped one if you took all the land up to Portland Street.

Would be a great location in terms of Transit access (since its a short walk to the Ferry Terminal and Alderney Bus Terminal) and would add to the redevelopment of the Dartmouth side. The other idea I had was somehow build it above the CNR rail tracks on the empty parking lot and perhaps extending over the harbour slightly (near Alderney Gate). The only problem is the engineering of actually having the structure but elevated above the rail - plus I wonder if it could even happen with the viewplanes there. Certainly the Canal Street location would work and no view plane problems, but with so little land in DT Dartmouth unfettered by viewplanes, would this be worth it?

I think that a Dartmouth location close to the ferry terminal might be a good location. If there were an area right next to the water then the stadium could be open at one end with a view of Halifax. If a significant amount of excavation were required then maybe the fill could be dumped into a shallow part of the harbour to increase the size of a lot of land. Although I doubted it in the past, if ferries ran from Halifax every 5 - 10 minutes then a significant number of people could be moved from Halifax by ferry. However, Shannon Park doesn't have good transit connections as you stated in another post.

At night, Halifax would have a great view of a lit up stadium on the Dartmouth waterfront. Something like this but on the Dartmouth side (the stadium is the Boise, Idaho Broncos Stadium that I pasted on the Halifax waterfront):

[MonctonRad]

The big issue I can see (or perhaps not see ) with a stadium right on the waterfront is fog!!

The fog can get pretty dense down there on the waterfront, especially in the summertime and early fall. That could wreak havoc with major sporting events and concerts.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The big issue I can see (or perhaps not see ) with a stadium right on the waterfront is fog!!

The fog can get pretty dense down there on the waterfront, especially in the summertime and early fall. That could wreak havoc with major sporting events and concerts.

Fog and bedrock aren't going keep Halifax from building a stadium. The fog usually clears up by noontime. The only thing that will keep the HRM from building a stadium will be a lack of interest (which would be unfortunate for the Halifax area but good for Moncton).

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Fog and bedrock aren't going keep Halifax from building a stadium. The fog usually clears up by noontime. The only thing that will keep the HRM from building a stadium will be a lack of interest (which would be unfortunate for the Halifax area but good for Moncton).

I'm actually quite serious about the fog Fenwick, and it doesn't always clear up at noon. It also frequently reappears in the evening. Between the fog and a cool sea breeze, I really do have reservations about a waterfront location for this project.

I do believe that Halifax should have a stadium. It should be on the central peninsula somewhere (my personal choice is Gorsebrook) but it should not be located on the waterfront.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I'm actually quite serious about the fog Fenwick, and it doesn't always clear up at noon. It also frequently reappears in the evening. Between the fog and a cool sea breeze, I really do have reservations about a waterfront location for this project.

I do believe that Halifax should have a stadium. It should be on the central peninsula somewhere (my personal choice is Gorsebrook) but it should not be located on the waterfront.

I have to agree with the cool ocean breeze concern since this has been a problem in other stadiums (such as Candlestick in San Francisco). Personally, I don't think that fog during the evening or afternoon will be a major problem. However, it might make football games more interesting - probably they will have to switch to a running game in reduced visibility.

Personally, I think the fog adds to the Halifax atmosphere especially if ships still use foghorns (with common use of Radar maybe foghorns aren't used very much anymore). It gives Halifax a mystical feel.

Gorsebrook would be an excellent location especially for a sunken bowl horseshoe stadium - the endzone and one sideline could be built into the natural depression and the other sideline could be built above ground kind of like the Yale Bowl Stadium (except this is built completely in a dug out bowl - based on pictures that I have seen). Similarly, part of the Rose Bowl was built using the ground as a berm for the stands as shown below:

(source: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/RoseBowl-construction1921.jpg )

[q12]

Majority shows support for outdoor sports stadium
Metro Halifax News
ALEX BOUTILIER
14 May 2010 12:28
Most Haligonians think the city could use a large outdoor sports stadium.

The CityThink 2010 survey found 60 per cent of HRM residents mostly or completely agree the city needs a new, larger outdoor sports stadium. Another 36 per cent mostly or completely disagree.

“It’s hard to read into exactly what people are thinking, but I think they view it as if this could get done, we’d love it,” said Fred Morley, executive vice-president of the Greater Halifax Partnership.

“If it can be done in a reasonably cost-efficient way ... it is something people have flagged.”

Craig Wight, senior vice-president at Bristol Omnifacts Research, which conducted the survey, said he views the response as a starting point for more debate on the subject.

“I think it shows (that) yes, there’s interest. (But) if it was my money, I would not be going to develop (a stadium) just based on that,” Wight said. “I would take that as, OK, here’s a starting point.

“Yes, there seems to be interest, (but) how much attendance am I going to get, are they really willing to pay for it themselves — because it is kind of a no-money obligation type of question.”

Morley said with the municipality facing a hefty deficit this year, it will take a big event — as well as federal and provincial involvement — to make a stadium a reality. He pointed to the new arena in Clayton Park under construction for the 2011 Canada Games as an example.

“This isn’t a blank cheque to go out and borrow and spend money all on our own,” said Morley. “What it is is (that) we’ve reached the stage where this is something we should consider as a community.”

[fenwick16]

Thanks for posting this q12. I would have missed it otherwise. I really don't think that the first stage of a sunken bowl stadium would cost as much as people think (I think about $25 - $30 million for about 16,000 seats which could then be expanded in the future). This article has some names that I would like to contact (for what that is worth). I think that it will be necessary to set up a Not For Profit Organization to do this in the near future. Otherwise people are going to wait another 25 years until a big event comes along (like the past 25 years).

[GUB]

I think the likelihood of a large scale stadium on Grosebrook field is next to nil. Is there not a Middle school next door? Never mind the thousands of vehicles trying to park. South-enders will not tolerate it! Bad plan.
If anything, build up Husky Stadium if it is physically possible.

[q12]

Results from the CityThink survey on the topic of HRM development
Metro Halifax News
14 May 2010 12:22
The CityThink survey sampled 500 residents in HRM last month and carries a margin of error of 4.4 per cent, 19 times out of 20.

1. Do you think HRM’s development policies …
• Favour development — 42%
• Inhibit development — 39%
• Neither favour nor inhibit development — 8%
• Don’t know — 10%
• Refused to answer — 1%

2. Do you think HRM’s development policies …
• Place too much emphasis on heritage preservation — 30%
• Appropriately balance the interests of heritage preservation and development — 44%
• Place insufficient emphasis on heritage preservation — 22%

3. Thinking back over the past 12 months, how would you describe HRM’s growth? Would you say HRM has grown a lot, some, a little or not at all?
• A lot — 25%
• Some — 40%
• A little — 24%
• Not at all — 9%
• Don’t know — 2%

4. How willing would you be to pay higher municipal taxes in order to make HRM more environmentally friendly? Would you be very willing, somewhat willing, somewhat unwilling or very unwilling?
• Very willing — 8%
• Somewhat willing — 45%
• Somewhat unwilling — 21%
• Very unwilling — 25%
• Don’t know — 1%

5. HRM needs a new, large outdoor sports stadium.
• Completely agree — 28%
• Mostly agree — 32%
• Neutral — 2%
• Mostly disagree — 24%
• Completely disagree — 12%
• Don’t know — 2%

http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/local/ar...k-survey-on-the-topic-of-hrm-development

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by GUB

I think the likelihood of a large scale stadium on Grosebrook field is next to nil. Is there not a Middle school next door? Never mind the thousands of vehicles trying to park. South-enders will not tolerate it! Bad plan.
If anything, build up Husky Stadium if it is physically possible.

I have to agree. That was just wishful thinking on my part. Maybe it would be best to put a stadium in Dartmouth close to the ferry terminal as halifaxboyns suggested. It would probably be faster than trying to get it built anywhere on the peninsula.

[reddog794]

The parking lot beside Alderney landing, is big enough to slide a stadium into. We would have a sea level stadium. Let Denver have mile high.

Outside of parking, it only ever had the multi-cultural festival on it. That's now in Halifax. Parking however would be a concern, but with it being both Alderney bus/Link/ferry terminal, It think it could be resolved. The parking behind Queen Square, could be expanded. Who owns Queen Square? The Lot next to Belmont House could be expanded too.

I think with the right design, it would help blend the massing. The Stadium would probably be as high as Alderney landing at points and help the street scape. Not to mention, add a lot to the already burgeoning, Downtown Dartmouth.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of an Alderney Stadium. It would have awesome views of Halifax. I have something like the proposed Whitecaps Stadium in Vancouver, in mind. But connect it to Alderney Landing, and make a complex of it.

[fenwick16]

In order to accommodate future expansion (to a minimum of 30,000 seats) a stadium should have at least 500 feet by 700 feet of land which is about 8 acres. I looked at downtown Dartmouth and the Canal Street area almost looks big enough but the train tracks will present a problem. I don't think that the Alderney Landing Parking lot would be big enough (and also it is probably required for parking).

One location that I think would be good for a stadium is the Halifax West Mall area. It has lots of parking and good transit connections (but is 8 acres of land available?). Another possibility is the Mic Mac Mall. Dartmouth Crossings has an old quarry that could be used for a sunken bowl stadium (but how are the transit connections?).

[spaustin]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

In order to accommodate future expansion (to a minimum of 30,000 seats) a stadium should have at least 500 feet by 700 feet of land which is about 8 acres. I looked at downtown Dartmouth and the Canal Street area almost looks big enough but the train tracks will present a problem. I don't think that the Alderney Landing Parking lot would be big enough (and also it is probably required for parking).

One location that I think would be good for a stadium is the Halifax West Mall area. It has lots of parking and good transit connections (but is 8 acres of land available?). Another possibility is the Mic Mac Mall. Dartmouth Crossings has an old quarry that could be used for a sunken bowl stadium (but how are the transit connections?).

The Alderney Landing parking lot would be an awesome location! Right in the heart of Downtown Dartmouth. I'm sure they could make it big enough to because they could infill some of the harbour to make it work. The train tracks are the real problem. They would likely have to go underneath the facility. Maybe build up the site to the level of Alderney Drive to get over the tracks and then have the stadium step down to harbour level at the back (field obviously would have to be level). The change in elevation would allow a floor of bars and restaurants along the harbour edge at the back and would extend Dartmouth's waterfront. Imagine the Dartmouth waterfront with a stadium on one end and King's Wharf on the other! You would need to build a decent parking garage nearby though as I don't think parking could fit on site. Maybe right across the street next to Belmont?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by spaustin

The Alderney Landing parking lot would be an awesome location! Right in the heart of Downtown Dartmouth. I'm sure they could make it big enough to because they could infill some of the harbour to make it work. The train tracks are the real problem. They would likely have to go underneath the facility. Maybe build up the site to the level of Alderney Drive to get over the tracks and then have the stadium step down to harbour level at the back (field obviously would have to be level). The change in elevation would allow a floor of bars and restaurants along the harbour edge at the back and would extend Dartmouth's waterfront. Imagine the Dartmouth waterfront with a stadium on one end and King's Wharf on the other! You would need to build a decent parking garage nearby though as I don't think parking could fit on site. Maybe right across the street next to Belmont?

I think this would be a great location. The top of the stadium would have to go all the way back to Alderney Drive (so people could enter the top of the stadium from Alderney Drive, and the stadium field would be level with the current parking lot). The train tracks could then go under the stadium seats that step down from Alderney Drive. However, the small boat marina adjacent to this site would also have to be filled in to have enough space.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by GUB

I think the likelihood of a large scale stadium on Grosebrook field is next to nil. Is there not a Middle school next door? Never mind the thousands of vehicles trying to park. South-enders will not tolerate it! Bad plan.
If anything, build up Husky Stadium if it is physically possible.

The reason why I like Gorsebrook is that it is right between SMU and Dal and could potentially be used by teams from both universities as well as possibly a CFL team (after Moncton get one first ).

It's also walking distance from the downtown and presumably has decent transit connections.

I'm aware of the school there but it's on the edge of the site. With declining student populations, is it still needed. Perhaps it could be consolidated with a neighbouring school

[Keith P.]

Alderney is a horrible location for anything involving large numbers of people. The Dartmouth street network leading to/from there is a complete and utter disaster. There is no direct route. Any more than a half-dozen vehicles and you are facing a traffic jam. Forget it.

[worldlyhaligonian]

No stadium would work anywhere close to the harbour unless it was a dome that was fully enclosed. This was a major concern with the Shannon Park idea and I agree.

As a longtime sailor in our harbour I can tell you that any football thrown into the air would be be so blown off course that playing the sport would be impossible. Field goal kicks would never make it in... either being blown back due to a head wind or wayy off course to the left or right of the uprights.

I still think the Willow Park Memorial Stadium is the best concept...