Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[racc]

Originally Posted by punface

That's the guy, yes. His behavior was bad when he interrupted Translink's presentation to our discussion group, but to be fair to him, there were a number of other people who behaved worse, especially at the start of the meeting.

Google tells me his full name is Mel Lehan ("The Mayor of Kitsilano"). He has been quoted in a lot of the free local papers on this issue. Mental Note: Google before you vote.

He was also organizing a meeting at the same location at the end of the month to push for streetcars. I don't think we have to worry about him having any success with the local residents, unless his true goal is to block anything getting built at all.

Lehan lost by around 10,000 votes in spite of how unpopular the Premier is. Jim Green came within one or two thousand votes a few elections ago when Campbell was more popular. His "support" in the community is way overrated.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by racc

Lehan lost by around 10,000 votes in spite of how unpopular the Premier is. Jim Green came within one or two thousand votes a few elections ago when Campbell was more popular. His "support" in the community is way overrated.

It wasn't that wide of a margin...I live in the riding, Lehan came in with about 8,000 votes and Campbell with a little over 10,000.

[jsbertram]

from http://www.elections.bc.ca/docs/rpt/2009GE/VNP.pdf

British Columbia general election, 2009
Vancouver-Point Grey
Gordon Campbell
11,546

Mel Lehan
9,232

Stephen Kronstein
2,012

John Ince (—)
130

[mezzanine]

I just want to remind people to keep on going out to the blogosphere and make sure that there is a lot of chatter about the benefits of skytrain for evergreen and broadway and countering mistaken opinions. I used to be pessimistic about future network extentions, but now more people are engaging in more thoughtful discussion about corridors and regional/fast transit vs. local. I've seen Satish Reddy, CLC, Mr. X, Voony, Richard, BC Phil out there (sorry if i missed anyone) stumping for us. Remember, try to be courteous and engage in a thoughtful way.

And special kudos to Satish Reddy on one post on the blogosphere for standing up to giants. Honest and open dialogue - aim for that.

Please give a link, page number, document showing that the Canada Line costs $25 per ride. Approximately 100,000 people ride the Canada line per day, which means roughly 36 million per year. Let's reduce this to 30 million per year to account for lower ridership on weekends and holidays. 30 million * 25 per ride = 750 million per year. My BS detector is telling me that this number is figure is ridiculous.

ok, that last part wasn't so courteous, but try to be courteous...

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Check the guys on street corners with sandwich boards ranting about whatever.

Saw one today that made me laugh.

"Accepting donations to pay for — enlargement. I'm a little short"

Or maybe it was just another Emily Carr student project.
you never know ...

[racc]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

from http://www.elections.bc.ca/docs/rpt/2009GE/VNP.pdf

British Columbia general election, 2009
Vancouver-Point Grey
Gordon Campbell
11,546

Mel Lehan
9,232

Stephen Kronstein
2,012

John Ince (—)
130

Sorry, I stand corrected. Still he did lose.

[jlousa]

110km along Broadway would be great, heck even half of that would be impressive, I bet we'd get lots of interesting photos for the future archives to add to this one.



Source: Vancouver Archives
http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/archives/exhibits/images/A13542.JPG

[BCPhil]

That's a good find. I'm sure lots of that would happen on Broadway even if the trains were going 40km/h. Can you imagine what it would be like at Broadway and Granville if there was a train wanting to go through the intersection every 30 seconds?

[mr.x]

lolll. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even if the moving parts of the train vehicles are capable of reaching 110 km/h the LRT trains on Broadway would still be restricted to traveling a max. of 50 km/h because it's a moving vehicle on a city street. Unless it has its own completely grade separated right-of-way, it won't be able to travel 110 km/h. It has to abide to local speed laws.

Never mind that no sane person would think that a LRT train going at 110 km/h on Broadway would be a good idea.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by mr.x

lolll. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even if the moving parts of the train vehicles are capable of reaching 110 km/h the LRT trains on Broadway would still be restricted to traveling a max. of 50 km/h because it's a moving vehicle on a city street. Unless it has its own completely grade separated right-of-way, it won't be able to travel 110 km/h. It has to abide to local speed laws.

Never mind that no sane person would think that a LRT train going at 110 km/h on Broadway would be a good idea.

Zweis would say that in Germany they let them travel 10km/h faster than the speed limit, because you know, Germans have never done anything wrong.

But what he's doing is cherry picking. He's taking the best parts of a collection of other systems to try and pitch LRT. Even if he doesn't even believe it's applicable to Broadway, he's just creating this phantom LRT system we should aspire to.

He takes the speed of a tram train somewhere in the country side, the headways of a different LRT where they have segregated ROW, and the segregated lanes of even others and the low cost of much simpler systems. He combines them all into this holy grail of a perfect LRT line that are impossible, simply because noone else has ever built such a system. All he's trying to do is cloud the argument, so that LRT is chosen, even if it's not the best choice, in the hopes that there will be more money out there so that he can one day see his billion dollar tramtrain to the Wack that nets 15,000 boardings.

Simply put, most of his arguments loose ground when you look at ridership in North America. He is so adament about Skytrain being a failure, when it's so clear it's a huge success that it underminds his whole position.

If Skytrain were classified as LRT, instead of the middle ground of light metro, it would be the most heavily ridden light rail system in North America. More than C-Train or MAX.

If the system wasn't built the way it was, as fully segregated, high speed regional rail, with low headways, it would be nowhere near as succesful. That assumption is pretty clear when you see that such systems are built (with more KM and lines than skytrain) in cities with much larger populations and simpler geography than Vancouver and have fewer total boardings and boardings per KM. Most cheaply built LRT systems end up having a much higher subsidy than Skytrain.

If he actually debated the straight forward cost and what LRT would be like on Broadway (not as fast as other comparable systems but cheaper to build), instead of undermine skytrain using allusion to Nazis (he HAS done that) I might take him a bit more serious.

[red-paladin]

Zweis would say that in Germany they let them travel 10km/h faster than the speed limit, because you know, Germans have never done anything wrong.

Come now, that wasn't very nice. But I did laugh so hard I almost threw up.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by awvan

Imagine LRT doing 110km/h down Broadway between Cambie and Granville. Even if the lights were timed, that — would be hilarious! (and so so dangerous).

But not to worry. Because when people hear the "Ding Ding Ding" They will just step out of the way.

I must say this would be a good thing for the old natural selection process.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

I just want to remind people to keep on going out to the blogosphere and make sure that there is a lot of chatter about the benefits of skytrain for evergreen and broadway and countering mistaken opinions. I used to be pessimistic about future network extentions, but now more people are engaging in more thoughtful discussion about corridors and regional/fast transit vs. local. I've seen Satish Reddy, CLC, Mr. X, Voony, Richard, BC Phil out there (sorry if i missed anyone) stumping for us. Remember, try to be courteous and engage in a thoughtful way.

Oh I'm out there as well. I'm just under a different name. But I have posted countless posts on the following blogs. Human Transit, Stephen Rees, Zwei's, Paul Hildson's, The buzzer blog and Zachs blog and Frances Bula. I have posted on other blogs as well. But generally only follow those.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by jlousa

110km along Broadway would be great, heck even half of that would be impressive, I bet we'd get lots of interesting photos for the future archives to add to this one.



Source: Vancouver Archives
http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/archives/exhibits/images/A13542.JPG

Um, boss?
We caught another car trying to turn left against the light.

[trofirhen]

Take a look here and see the giant, automated "double-loop" rrt that Paris has in plan for its project "Grand Paris".

It's nothing short of mind-blowingly ambitious ..... and it's in the works.
Maybe it could serve as an inspiration for us.

click on the map to enlarge it.
http://medias.lemonde.fr/mmpub/edt/ill/2009/03/16/h_4_PARIS+X1I1.gif

[lightrail]

Originally Posted by mr.x

lolll. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even if the moving parts of the train vehicles are capable of reaching 110 km/h the LRT trains on Broadway would still be restricted to traveling a max. of 50 km/h because it's a moving vehicle on a city street. Unless it has its own completely grade separated right-of-way, it won't be able to travel 110 km/h. It has to abide to local speed laws.

Never mind that no sane person would think that a LRT train going at 110 km/h on Broadway would be a good idea.

LRT trains and streetcars are not subject to the Motor Vehicle Act, so road speed limits, stop lights, etc would not apply to them.

From Motor Vehicle Act:
"motor vehicle" means a vehicle, not run on rails, that is designed to be self propelled or propelled by electric power obtained from overhead trolley wires, but does not include a motor assisted cycle;

"rules" for train operation would obviously be for safety - eg when LRT has the right of way, whether it must stop for lights, etc. But an LRT could never be ticketed under the Motor Vehicle Act for speeding or running lights or other traffic violations.

PS - I find it interesting that in BC trolley buses are included as motor vehicles. In Alberta they never were considered a vehicle and were operated as a railway. That's why in Edmonton trolley buses never had license plates, yet in Vancouver they do.

[jsbertram]

Guess what Google found?
an unpublished photo of Zwei's prototype LRT/Tram/Streetcar.



You can tell it's the first prototype because the "ding ding ding" bell hasn't been installed yet

[LeftCoaster]

Haha good find.

I see it has the classic cattle pusher to ensure all the people it smashes into while flying down Broadway at 100km/h dont become fatalities like the death trap skytrain...

[jsbertram]

That has been scientifically engineered to gently whisk people out of the way if they didn't hear the "ding ding ding" of the approaching lrt/tram/streetcar.

[cornholio]

• Video Link
You also get alot more derailments in a shared right of way, and sometimes bad ones like this one a few years back in Prague that killed two people.

There is actually lots more very serious accidents out there with trams like this. Trams and LRT is most definitely not safer then skytrain and is based on what I always saw pretty dangerous, the long stopping distance, no ability to avoid obstacles and reckless drivers tends to be a bit of a hazard.