Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[cabotp]

On other news.

My hatred for Zwei has climbed to the point that if I saw him hanging off a cliff I'd continue on walking. Sorry but that is how I feel.

That guy is an idiot.

I'm the original quote and he responded to me in perfect Zwei fashion.

My counter argument is simply. Why should I as a transit user be forced to ride a street car system that has to run slower for safety reasons compared to a metro line. If there was both a metro line and a street car on Broadway. 90% of the time I would probably chose the metro line over the street car. The only time I would choose the street car is if I wasn’t going that far in distance.

You may not think nor may others like you who support the street car. But speed is a big factor for most people out there. The higher the speed the lower the commute time. I’m now waiting for the comment that speed and commute time are not a factor.

Zweisystem replies: Your comment, “Why should I as a transit user be forced to ride a street car system that has to run slower for safety reasons compared to a metro line.” refers to a streetcar system not light rail. The difference is a reserved rights-of-way. The question of speed is more to do with station/stop spacing rather than mode. Actually Paul, you are in the minority as more people want their transit on the pavement, handy to use as LRT has a far better record in attracting new ridership. And Paul, why should I be forced to use a pygmy transit system or metro, the compels me to use the stairs, when I have very bad knees and can only climb ascend or descent stairs in pain. Oh yes the station has an elevator, but by the time I wait in line to use it, my metro journey is now become an ordeal.

The actual speed of a transit system is not the prime factor is people using transit, it is the over all ambiance of the transit system, ease of tickets, the seamless or no transfer journey and several more factors, all combines to make transit easy and nice to use. The speed factor is a myth, use by the SkyTrain Lobby to scare people, oh yes, the Seattle hybrid light rail/metro, with large portions of its route in tunnel or on viaduct and has few stations and fast commercial speeds, oh wait for it 20,000 passengers a day – hmmmmmm, I guess speed of the system isn’t all what it is cracked up to be.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by cabotp

While I like the combo line option. But biggest complaint is what if we build a street car west of arbutus and find out it can't even handle the UBC crowds. Of course during the summer it wouldn't matter so much.

One thought I had is if they do built skytrain all the way to UBC. That during the summer months. Have trains short turn at possibly Arbutus or Alma or Sasamat. So maybe you would only get a train going to UBC every 15 or 30 mins. Those are just numbers and it may have a better headway. We then wouldn't have to run as many trains.

A train to UBC every 15-30 minutes is absolutely ridiculous. It may be the summer months, but UBC certainly has the demand even during then for a much higher frequency than that. It's not just about demand, but also about the service we're providing...rapid transit should not just be quick but frequent.

The short-turn at Arbutus during the summer is a good idea...but I'd do that in a way that would maintain the UBC frequency to at least one train every 6-minutes.

Otherwise this train needs to go to Arbutus at the minimum and there has to be a station at Oak/Willow. There is too big of a gap from Cambie to Granville for that area.

Agreed. Oak/VGH is needed.

[deasine]

Note that the fact that UBC is planning to introduce more market housing and student housing within it's point grey campus needs to be an important consideration in this rapid transit line.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by cabotp

On other news.

My hatred for Zwei has climbed to the point that if I saw him hanging off a cliff I'd continue on walking. Sorry but that is how I feel.

That guy is an idiot.

I'm the original quote and he responded to me in perfect Zwei fashion.

I think most of us here feel like that, and wouldn't mind it at all (personally, I'd choose to tie him up and catapult him over the border with an angry mob to witness)...but I don't think he's a complete idiot, I think he knows what he's doing. It's all part of his game to get rail for his lil' valley and he will stop at nothing to get what he wants. He tells lies over and over and over again until they appear to become a truth...something he accuses us of doing, the so-called "SkyTrain lobby".

That post you quoted is pure bull....and the part where he says he has bad knees and can't climb stairs, pure B.S. That's the first time he has mentioned it in his arguments. And among many contradictions he suggests that everyone should be forced to take his kool-aid take on a rail transit, a system that he praises for its slower speeds and longer travel times, yet he complains about waiting to take an elevator to the platform.

Just wondering, has anyone come across zwei during a public meeting?



Thank god the tide is turning, sane and logical people are finally outnumbering the LRT minority.

[invisibleairwaves]

Between the lineups-at-elevators comment and the idea that speed is irrelevant (and numerous other quotes from him in the past), I'd say this guy has taken public transit in Vancouver approximately never. He ought to familiarize himself with the system he's so hell-bent on bringing down.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by cabotp

While I like the combo line option. But biggest complaint is what if we build a street car west of arbutus and find out it can't even handle the UBC crowds. Of course during the summer it wouldn't matter so much.

I had a thought for the combo option, don't know if it's that good though.

What if instead of going down Broadway, you have LRT leave the Arbutus station, then head down 16th?

I think we can safely assume, that at least 80% of the volume on the LRT portion west of Arbutus would be to and from UBC. So, the LRT is really just a high capacity rapid shuttle to get people to UBC ASAP. If it's not going to stop at every other block on Broadway for local travel inside the corridor, why send it down there and get stuck in traffic at all.

16th, for most of the distance has a very wide median which is more than enough room for LRT and stations. There are fewer cross streets and no issues regarding the loss of parking or through lanes on 16, and trains would easily have a faster end to end time. Because you also do have to deal with blocking intersections, and deal with fewer stops, trains can be much, much longer than standard streetcar type LRT trains (meaning more capacity with fewer trains and drivers). I imagine that constructions costs on the median would also be significantly cheaper than basically rebuilding that section of Broadway to accommodate the tram.

Also, coming off 16th gives the LRT entry into UBC from the south end, meaning that the tracks could actually go the end to end length of campus and thus deliver students to more destinations within the school. The LRT could travel from 16th up East Mall to the Chan Center.

It also leave the door open for future expansion.

You don't have tracks on Broadway/10th, so if capacity demands an extension of Skytrain from Arbutus to UBC, it can be done without interfering with or exactly duplicating the LRT. The LRT on 16th could then be Extended further down 16th to Granville, where it can turn North and head into downtown over the Granville street bridge (passing infront of every commercial property on the street). This would better connect South Granville with North and the tracks on 16th wouldn't be a waste as it would become an urban tram, like the proposed Arbutus corridor, while Skytrain becomes the main UBC workhorse.

Meh, it's probably not the greatest idea, and I WOULD prefer Skytrain all the way, but I think it would lower the price of the Combo Option quite a bit.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I had a thought for the combo option, don't know if it's that good though.

What if instead of going down Broadway, you have LRT leave the Arbutus station, then head down 16th?

I think we can safely assume, that at least 80% of the volume on the LRT portion west of Arbutus would be to and from UBC. So, the LRT is really just a high capacity rapid shuttle to get people to UBC ASAP. If it's not going to stop at every other block on Broadway for local travel inside the corridor, why send it down there and get stuck in traffic at all.

16th, for most of the distance has a very wide median which is more than enough room for LRT and stations. There are fewer cross streets and no issues regarding the loss of parking or through lanes on 16, and trains would easily have a faster end to end time. Because you also do have to deal with blocking intersections, and deal with fewer stops, trains can be much, much longer than standard streetcar type LRT trains (meaning more capacity with fewer trains and drivers). I imagine that constructions costs on the median would also be significantly cheaper than basically rebuilding that section of Broadway to accommodate the tram.

Also, coming off 16th gives the LRT entry into UBC from the south end, meaning that the tracks could actually go the end to end length of campus and thus deliver students to more destinations within the school. The LRT could travel from 16th up East Mall to the Chan Center.

It also leave the door open for future expansion.

You don't have tracks on Broadway/10th, so if capacity demands an extension of Skytrain from Arbutus to UBC, it can be done without interfering with or exactly duplicating the LRT. The LRT on 16th could then be Extended further down 16th to Granville, where it can turn North and head into downtown over the Granville street bridge (passing infront of every commercial property on the street). This would better connect South Granville with North and the tracks on 16th wouldn't be a waste as it would become an urban tram, like the proposed Arbutus corridor, while Skytrain becomes the main UBC workhorse.

Meh, it's probably not the greatest idea, and I WOULD prefer Skytrain all the way, but I think it would lower the price of the Combo Option quite a bit.

Hell no. That doesn't make sense at all, it's as asinine as zweisystem's ideas.

For starters, you severely underestimate the ridership that comes from Sasamat, Alma, and Macdonald. UBC isn't the all and be-all destination west of Arbutus, and if it does come down to it and LRT is the option I'd much, much prefer having LRT on 10th Avenue and Broadway west of Arbutus.

You need to travel down the Broadway and 10th Avenue corridor a bit more.

If you have it down 16th, you're not going to get the ridership you need along the route...and the NIMBY's (and I will join them in a heart beat) would certainly be opposed to it and will stop at nothing to prevent it from being built, they will go at it much more fervently than anything that will be built on 10th Avenue and Broadway. It makes absolutely zero sense to build it along this corridor, which is much more like a huge and time costing detour. And I'm pretty sure you'll come across a big grade challenge at the hill just east of Dunbar.



If finances continue to pose as a major issue for SkyTrain to terminate at UBC, it would be ideal to terminate the line at Arbutus and leave the extension to UBC to future. However, any extension MUST occur on either Broadway or 10th Avenue. There is no alternative.

[Zassk]

UBC is not just a student destination. It's one of the larger and fastest-growing town centres in Metro Vancouver. By the time this line is built, it will probably exceed Port Moody in importance. Tens of thousands of permanent (non-student) residents and jobs are located there, and that number will be much higher after 2020. Yes, summer will have a lower load, but it will not be as low as some of you think - it will probably still beat the current Millennium Line's or YVR's ridership.

I really don't see UBC as "icing on the cake". Douglas College is icing on the cake. UBC is a large transit destination in its own right, and is one of the growing communities that will worsen traffic congestion if we don't address it. Let me repeat that - UBC is a growing satellite community, it's not a static core part of the City of Vancouver. I think it's just off of many people's radar because it isn't located to the east.

And to say that we don't need to provide better transit because we already have captured UBC students' dollars by the U-Pass is, in my opinion, offensive. First of all, the U-Pass will be up for renegotiation at some point. Second of all, we have emissions and ridership targets for the region that motivate us to further increase transit's share of commuting, and UBC is an ideal place to try to meet those targets. If we are to choose densified, cohesive, pragmatic destinations to maximize the return on our transit investment dollars to hit those targets, then no destination ranks higher than UBC after Central Broadway.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

Between the lineups-at-elevators comment and the idea that speed is irrelevant (and numerous other quotes from him in the past), I'd say this guy has taken public transit in Vancouver approximately never. He ought to familiarize himself with the system he's so hell-bent on bringing down.

I realised he was knew nothing on the subject when he stated the 99 was the only bus that went to UBC.

Zwei: for people with mobility issues who can't use stairs there is a marvellous invention called the ESCALATOR. Think of it as a mobile stair that can raise or lower you from one level to another, and it even has hand grips so you can steady yourself as you move from floor to floor.


I've heard that one reason Seattle's new LRT isn't popular is because it really doesn't go anywhere were people want to go other than the airport, and the stations aren't easily accessed. Apparently it by-passes a popular mall because the mall owners didn't want to pay for easy access to transit. go figger.

Another reason for low ridership is that the rest of the line isn't finished yet. this is the extension that heads north from Downtown Seattle to ......
University of Washington (and popular spots between Downtown and U-Dub).

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

How do those students contribute to the funding of the line? They are captive because they have already paid, Tranlink has their money UBC line or not. They already made their choice by attending UBC, they don't have to make a choice on how to spend their dollars every day. They already pay their upass fees. Any increase in ridership to UBC will actually dip into the slim to none profits that Translink makes off the Upass program. If every students suddenly took transit to UBC the cost of the Upass would need to be increase, making it less affordable for those that really benefit from it.



No, it's not UBC vs Central Broadway, but my post was in regards to a few people who seemed to think it would be ok to skip having a station at Oak/VGH so that trains could get to UBC faster/cheaper.

UBC is the icing on the cake, the priority is getting people who drive out of their cars, and shaping growth. UBC doesn't really affect population growth in areas. I don't think they build townhouse or condo complexes with UBC students in mind as the sales targets.

You are putting yourself in the shoes of future students. You are thinking about the possible time savings students will have. While I would like to see Skytrain to UBC, having it get there isn't going to be as a fundamental shift in as many lives as simply getting it through Central Broadway would. With workers there having access to transit, they would be encouraged to find homes closer to rapid transit stations in the east.

I would love to see Skytrain out to UBC, but if push came to shove and there wasn't enough money to get it all the way there, it NEEDS to go through to Arbutus and hit the business districts. Transferring to rapid bus or LRT that much closer to UBC will still save students a lot of time.

The U-Pass program isn't only to get students to/from school using transit, but to make it part of their lifestyle for most of their traveling needs, so after 2, 3 or 4 years of use they won't think of it as a hardship or an inconvenience when they have to pay the full-cost of their monthly fare cards as part of the commute to their new jobs. If they are lucky, their new employer will be part of the employee bus pass program that makes their monthly pass cheaper - just not as cheap as the U-Pass.

Some of these new grads will be using transit for a few years after graduating, some for a decade or more, so for each of them using transit after graduating, that is one car NOT on the road. And thats a good thing.

[jsbertram]

This 16th Ave idea got me thinking.

Why does the underground SkyTrain need to follow the University Blvd to the old Bus loop near the Aquatic centre?

Why not this:



Perhaps have the SkyTrain tunnel stop at a U.Blvd @ East Mall station rather than go as far as the Chan Centre, and another station at T-Bird Blvd. and Wesbrook?

The old loop can be revived (or perhaps the underground loop can finally be built) so buses and trollies can continue to use U.Blvd.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

Between the lineups-at-elevators comment and the idea that speed is irrelevant (and numerous other quotes from him in the past), I'd say this guy has taken public transit in Vancouver approximately never. He ought to familiarize himself with the system he's so hell-bent on bringing down.

Someone said this earlier.

He thinks that by making the UBC line cheaper (using trams, streetcars or LRTs), he can magically transfer those savings over to Surrey for their needs.

Or he believes that if he can postpone the UBC line decisions long enough, Surrey will be ready to go with his pet project & grab all the cash waiting to be spent on Vancouver.

Clearly he's never worked where a budget item is 'locked in' for a specific project and amount with financing arranged. If that project is canceled, its budget item is deleted as is its budgeted amount, and its financing arrangement is canceled too. For a major infrastructure project this financial juggling can involve a complicated combination of of gov't borrowing, bonds, or P3 private partners for financing the project over 25, 30, 50 years or more; If the project doesn't need to be done, its budget item is removed, and the financing for that project doesn't proceed.

The money that might have been used for the canceled project doesn't just get moved over to another project.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

This 16th Ave idea got me thinking.

Why does the underground SkyTrain need to follow the University Blvd to the old Bus loop near the Aquatic centre?

I agree with your suggestion. It was on my mind when I attended a couple of Olympic hockey games at Thunderbird Stadium. The campus and the residential community are large enough to warrant two stations, if the line can be situated appropriately. I would even expect UBC to offer money toward building the extra station.

It seems that the future growth of the UEL community will be concentrated to the southwest, past Thunderbird Stadium around 16th. That area already has multiple neighbourhoods, employers, a shopping district, and soon a high school. It will be much bigger 10-20 years from now. I bet this southern community is a much more lucrative transit "market" than the old established neighbourhood located between University and Chancellor.

If it were up to me, I would put a station near Wesbrook and Thunderbird Stadium, and another at University and East Mall. As for which one is the terminus station, that can be down to whichever alignment is cheapest and permitted. Cutting a tunnel under the golf course, which I believe was a First Nation land claim, might have too many hurdles to jump.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by mr.x

A train to UBC every 15-30 minutes is absolutely ridiculous. It may be the summer months, but UBC certainly has the demand even during then for a much higher frequency than that. It's not just about demand, but also about the service we're providing...rapid transit should not just be quick but frequent.

The short-turn at Arbutus during the summer is a good idea...but I'd do that in a way that would maintain the UBC frequency to at least one train every 6-minutes.




Agreed. Oak/VGH is needed.

I realize that ever 15 mins was too long. Which is why I said in my post right after "those are just numbers and it may have a better headway". I was just giving an example of a longer headways. 6 Minutes as you mentioned would be good during peak. Maybe dropping it down to ever 12 Mins later at night.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

This 16th Ave idea got me thinking.

Why does the underground SkyTrain need to follow the University Blvd to the old Bus loop near the Aquatic centre?

Why not this:



Perhaps have the SkyTrain tunnel stop at a U.Blvd @ East Mall station rather than go as far as the Chan Centre, and another station at T-Bird Blvd. and Wesbrook?

The old loop can be revived (or perhaps the underground loop can finally be built) so buses and trollies can continue to use U.Blvd.

Makes sense if the land you are tunnelling under is owned by UBC (i.e. Acadia and Fairview residences, etc.) assuming that UBC would grant a statutory right-of-way for the tunnel at no cost - it would add cost if UBC wants payment or if it passes under land held by others.

One concern about tunnelling under campus would be to stay far away from the chemistry, physics and maybe some engneering buildings that could be impacted by vibration from trains. I think there was an issue at the University of Washington and the LRT extension in Seattle.

I'd rather see a diversion to South Campus and the residential (and Thunderbird Stadium) over there.
The yellow line below is circuituous, but could link to a 41st Ave.line. (but Triumpf is there so not sure is that would work)
The green line is more like the red line but not as deep into campus (station is probably a bit too far south on the map)



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[lightrail]

My two cents:

If light rail is chosen, it will have drawbacks. Let's assume the trains will run on their own right-of-way. Depending on how that right-of-way is built will depend on speed of the line.

LRT trains with drivers, will mean lower headways than Skytrain due to the cost and logisitics of driver scheduling. It also means the LRT will not be able to respond quickly to demand - ie can't just press a button and bring more trains into service, or can't shorten the turnaround the get the train going sooner (as is done on SKytrain).

If LRT is in a tunnel, then I don't see any advantage over skytrain in construction costs or operational costs. Tunnel costs might be higher for LRT to accommodate the pantograph and overhead wires.

I haven't ruled out LRT completely- but given the density on Broadway, the expected demand and the integration with the existing skytrain, then why isn't sky train a no-brainer?

[mr.x]

I think students could do with just the one station at the centre of campus by the SUB...the campus is highly walkable, and walking is the only exercise many students ever get and they need that.

[SpongeG]

a streetcar would be complimented by busses and people will and do adjust accordingly to whats available

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

Between the lineups-at-elevators comment and the idea that speed is irrelevant (and numerous other quotes from him in the past), I'd say this guy has taken public transit in Vancouver approximately never. He ought to familiarize himself with the system he's so hell-bent on bringing down.

There is that cool new invention called the "escalator" it has moving stairs!

[jsbertram]

I was looking back on these threads, and another idea jumped out at me.

Use UBC SkyTrain tunnel for the direct access by Millennium line, and move the B-Line buses to 41st Ave:



Red is UBC Millennium extension
Green is the 41st Ave B-Line.

41st would keep its regular trolley route, but the B-Line would be a limited-stop route from UBC, with stops at Arbutus (especially when they get the Arbutus Corridor train), Granville (?), Oak (C-Line), Langara, Joyce Station (SkyTrain), BCIT, Brentwood (SkyTrain).

If this new 41st Ave B-Line is popular and gets over capacity then it could be replaced with a tram / streetcar / LRT. This could take advantage of the fact that Translink still has their Oakridge Transit Centre on 41st between Oak and Cambie which could be rebuilt as a new streetcar OMC. Perhaps like they did in New York, the OMC can be built several stories below ground, and have housing / offices / mall / public facilities at street level and above ground - 'hiding' the OMC from the rest of the neighborhood. Just like Oakridge Mall has done for cars, ramps in the middle of 41st Ave could be used to connect the underground streetcar OMC with 41st Ave when streetcars are going in and out of service.