Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by deasine

Hold on here. Just because a station is at VGH doesn't mean it serves only VGH. The Central Broadway business district is located right between Cambie and Hemlock, where Oak/Laurel/Willow is in the centre. A station at Oak will really benefit the entire area as a whole, and a station at Oak will give rapid transit access to many more residents. A line without a station at Oak is like a line without a station at Arbutus. In fact, I would probably argue that the station at Oak is more important than a station at Arbutus.

Good point, Deasine. I would modify that by saying EQUALLY important, anyway.

[jsbertram]

You might be able to get the 'creme de la creme' to accept an underground Skytrain on 10th if the Sasamat station is skipped during construction so the Lumpen Proletariat don't accidentally get off the train near their homes.

But built with a way to add it later if/when the Point Grey locals realize it could be a useful way for their kids to get to UBC (one stop away) or SFU. Or even Douglas College -way out in the 'burbs.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

You might be able to get the 'creme de la creme' to accept an underground Skytrain on 10th if the Sasamat station is skipped during construction so the Lumpen Proletariat don't accidentally get off the train near their homes.

But built with a way to add it later if/when the Point Grey locals realize it could be a useful way for their kids to get to UBC (one stop away) or SFU. Or even Douglas College -way out in the 'burbs.

reverse psychology put to good use

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

anyone know if the Rotems have regenerative braking at all? I know that's one big advantage of Linear Induction Motors ( read: SkyTrain ) is that it's relatively easy to feed power back into the system when decelerating.

I'm sure they do. Even my electric skateboard has regenerative braking. A DC motor and a DC generator are one in the same.

The only difference between the two is that the terminal voltage is higher than the back EMF on a motor, and it's the other way around on a generator. So if you motor is going faster than the terminal voltage would normally allow, it acts as a generator until it gets down the to desired speed.

[mr.x]

Personally, if I really had to choose between Oak/VGH and Arbutus I'd choose Oak/VGH. The ridership is already there at Oak/VGH, while there's a large potential ridership at where Arbutus is it could wait a little longer.

I agree with deasine, a station at Oak/VGH is quite important.

And as for foregoing Sasamat, loll I may be biased as a station there is a station at my front door...but it's a necessary station. The bus ridership here is already at 5,000 daily. Add a SkyTrain station here in 2020 and I could see the station's ridership reaching almost 10,000. That's more than the ridership of quite a few SkyTrain stations today. Foregoing Sasamat is also something many UBC students would be opposed to.

[dubsH]

Originally Posted by mr.x

And as for foregoing Sasamat, loll I may be biased as a station there is a station at my front door...but it's a necessary station. The bus ridership here is already at 5,000 daily. Add a SkyTrain station here in 2020 and I could see the station's ridership reaching almost 10,000. That's more than the ridership of quite a few SkyTrain stations today. Foregoing Sasamat is also something many UBC students would be opposed to.

But will Sasamat reach 5000-10000 passengers daily during the summer months? I'd say a future option at Sasamat is better at this point in time if only to get the line started all the way to UBC. As it stands, the #17, #9 (rush hour?), and the #4 all serve that area, and will likely continue to serve once the Skytrain starts. I know for many people, Safeway is the big draw for UBC students since Sasamat is so close, but if Macdonald had a station, many more people would go there instead, thereby reducing the "5000-10000" ridership.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

reverse psychology put to good use

It just occurred to me that another argument in favour of the Sasamat station is that it would allow their staff (maids, butlers, chauffeurs &tc.) more reliable access to get to their jobs in the Point Grey mansions.

[BCPhil]

I think a few too many people have their blinders set on getting themselves to class at UBC faster so they can get a few more minutes of shut eye a night.

Central Broadway is the KEY to the Broadway line.

Sure it would be amazing to get out to UBC as fast as the Skytrain could get you there, but there is one thing to remember, UBC students are a captive audience. As driving and the cost of living naturally get more expensive, taking transit (that they already pay for) will become a necesity for a larger percentage.

However, at Central Broadway you have the working upper middle class. There are tens of thousands of people who currently drive there because it's better to drive at this point. And the income from their good jobs will always match the increasing cost of driving. To increase transit mode share from 20% to a downtown like 50% you have to offer the same kind of service, a speedy service. Mode share to UBC will increase naturally over time, especially with the Upass making it more affordable (which is the deciding factor for many students).

Now I support extending Skytrain to UBC, because it does make sense to bring rapid transit to the school all the people in between. There is a large potential for growth to generate higher transit numbers into downtown from areas like McDonald and Alma. As well I'm not convinced that LRT can actually handle the capacity needed without having trains run bumper to bumper.

But make no mistake, this is the BROADWAY line that might terminate at UBC... not the UBC line that MIGHT stop at key business centers elsewhere.

That's why the Combo option is attractive to many. It will get commuters into the Central Broadway area fast and be a very easy trip for many people. Most of the people who have a choice, and chose to drive instead of take the bus don't go much further than Arbutus. The Broadway line is about more than improving efficiencies to get to UBC, it's about attracting new riders out of their cars, so we don't have to spend tens of billions on new super roads. As well, most of the areas where we can see large scale densification in both jobs and homes is between Main and MacDonald.

If you want to affect transit usage in the region and shape growth, you have to target the people who actually have a choice where they want to work, where they want to live, and how they want to travel. Everything else is bonus.

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by deasine

Hold on here. Just because a station is at VGH doesn't mean it serves only VGH. The Central Broadway business district is located right between Cambie and Hemlock, where Oak/Laurel/Willow is in the centre. A station at Oak will really benefit the entire area as a whole, and a station at Oak will give rapid transit access to many more residents. A line without a station at Oak is like a line without a station at Arbutus. In fact, I would probably argue that the station at Oak is more important than a station at Arbutus.

If there's no station at VGH, then there's no point in doing the UBC Line project at all in the first place. In fact, the station should be located at Laurel, because that's the closest to the ER ward at Jim Pattison Building. They should have on entrance right at VGH on W.10th, the other on W.Broadway to have access to the business towers and offices.

BTW, I think if Translink decides to bore the tunnel to UBC, they should do it like this:


from: http://www.firetherm.com/content.php?ID=15


http://tropicalmoments.wordpress.com/2009/10/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_Line_%28MTR%29

Perhaps, the TBM machine is big enough so that the station platform can be embedded within the radius of the round tunnel, so that all you need to do is build the entrance and the mezzanine. Do you think this will save some in building costs (especially with massive digging for station boxes)? I'm thinking since the MK I/II cars are smaller than the Rotem ones, i'm thinking it might fit in there along with the platforms

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

UBC students are a captive audience.

An interesting point of view, but those 40,000 "captive" UBC trips per non-summer day will be making a significant contribution toward the overall operating cost of the line. My guess is that the business case for a self-funding Broadway line would be hurt by ending the line anywhere short of UBC.

Edit -

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

Perhaps, the TBM machine is big enough so that the station platform can be embedded within the radius of the round tunnel, so that all you need to do is build the entrance and the mezzanine. Do you think this will save some in building costs (especially with massive digging for station boxes)?

Those stations are not built with the same TBM's as the train tunnels. They are excavated using separate equipment and I'd guess the round shape is chosen only for economy and strength. The London trains themselves run in very narrow bored tunnels that are far narrower than those station platforms (as evidenced by the round shape of the trains).

[mr.x]

^ i don't think it's likely that they would do that...that would drive up costs quite a bit considering they're boring a much larger tunnel than what they need. It would probably be cheaper to simply cut-and-cover the stations.

I think the question is, if it's going to be bored what kind of TBM will they use? Two twin machines for twin tunnels or one big machine for one big tunnel for both tracks like Metro Torino?

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by dubsH

But will Sasamat reach 5000-10000 passengers daily during the summer months? I'd say a future option at Sasamat is better at this point in time if only to get the line started all the way to UBC. As it stands, the #17, #9 (rush hour?), and the #4 all serve that area, and will likely continue to serve once the Skytrain starts. I know for many people, Safeway is the big draw for UBC students since Sasamat is so close, but if Macdonald had a station, many more people would go there instead, thereby reducing the "5000-10000" ridership.

In 10-years, Sasamat will reach near 10,000 riders per day with SkyTrain during the school year and 5,000 riders per day during the summer. Of course, I'm basing this just on personal experience from living in the area for my whole life.

Only one trolley route will likely remain on 10th Avenue/Broadway when SkyTrain is done.....and note that if you defer a station at Sasamat, that means there's a 4.6-km station-less gap between Alma and UBC, albeit half of that gap is through the park.


If we want to reduce initial costs, UBC can do with just one station on its campus...defer other stations to the future.

[nname]

Having both Alma and Sasmat as future stations would create a large gap of 5.8km between stations - too long for urban rapid transit system. If I have to pick one, I'll choose Sasmat because it have more ridership potential, similar distance between two adjacent stations, and also that Alma station can be bulit in the future with less distruption.

The other two stations I think that can be future stations are Finnings and Arbutus.

[Canadian Mind]

why is that to far, justensures that the "Rapid" transit is actually rapid. If a station isn't needed at this point, don't include it, but include provisions for it to be built. Saves time, and money.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

why is that to far, justensures that the "Rapid" transit is actually rapid. If a station isn't needed at this point, don't include it, but include provisions for it to be built. Saves time, and money.

The issue is, most of them are needed. This isn't like the 97 B-Line where there wasn't a strong ridership to prove whether or not the station is necessary. All of the 99 B-Line stops are quite busy, other than Fraser and Arbutus since they are new.

[Xrayal]

IMO, both UBC students and the institution itself should come forward and show they are willing to pay for a more rapid option. Translink is not going to make anymore money whichever way they decide to build it. So hang some carrots(money) infront of there noses. The student counsel should state that they they are willing to pay more for there U passes for the rapid direct service. Aswell as the university itself step up and state that they are only willing to pay for the extention of a rapid transit line on endowment lands. Really the debate over which form of transit is not complete. The general public can be potentially swayed by actions like this.

[Alex Mackinnon]

The AMS will probably be endorsing the Skytrain option in September. As far as money goes it would probably make more sense financially for UBC to simply endorse or OK the construction of above or at grade construction on UBC/UEL lands. It could shave a couple hundred million of construction costs. In my opinion the best thing the AMS could do is shape the new sub to be able to fully integrate a station platform into it's construction, weather it be above or below grade.

UBC has got about a billion dollar endowment right now, but they're not going to give it away right now. They're pretty scared that their funding is going to dry up in the near future as the work force ages.

[dubsH]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I think a few too many people have their blinders set on getting themselves to class at UBC faster so they can get a few more minutes of shut eye a night.

Central Broadway is the KEY to the Broadway line.

Disagree.

BOTH UBC and Central Broadway are key to the Broadway-UBC line.

I may be a UBC student now, but I certainly won't be when this thing is done. I won't directly benefit from this line in any way; I certainly won't get a few more minutes of shut eye. In fact, I'll probably pay more to get this thing started, but I'm okay with it.

But make no mistake, this is the BROADWAY line that might terminate at UBC... not the UBC line that MIGHT stop at key business centers elsewhere.

That is neither here nor there; it's not UBC vs. Central Broadway like you're making it out to be. I'll make no mistake to note that UBC is also a key employment centre, and with a growing number of non-campus residents as well.

That's why the Combo option is attractive to many. It will get commuters into the Central Broadway area fast and be a very easy trip for many people. Most of the people who have a choice, and chose to drive instead of take the bus don't go much further than Arbutus. The Broadway line is about more than improving efficiencies to get to UBC, it's about attracting new riders out of their cars, so we don't have to spend tens of billions on new super roads. As well, most of the areas where we can see large scale densification in both jobs and homes is between Main and MacDonald.

If you want to affect transit usage in the region and shape growth, you have to target the people who actually have a choice where they want to work, where they want to live, and how they want to travel. Everything else is bonus.

The last part of what you said is very true.

However, by saying that "slow rail is good enough for students; they aren't key choice riders anyway" is going down a dangerous slippery slope. These students are going to be the next generation of car drivers when they graduate. Instead of giving them a reason to enjoy transit ("oh look! The commute to UBC wasn't that bad!"), they'll remember "oh yeah, I took that tram thing. It goes so slow, I don't see why I would want to be stuck on there instead of being in my own car". UBC (including students, professors, staff, and residents) will have an impact on ridership. To say that this line is only for Central Broadway residents/businesses is short-sighted.

By building surface rail (the streetcar demonstration extension) to UBC (which is the part I'm against; I don't mind initial phasing to Granville and B-line from there until more funds become available for expansion. I'm not just "BOO HOO GIMME CENTRAL BROADWAY LINE NOW!!"), it effectively closes the door on real rapid transit solution towards UBC for the future. Once you lay down surface track to UBC, it will probably be another 40 years before another alternative is looked at.

UBC is going to grow. Central Broadway is going to grow. Both have the ridership NOW and both have the opportunity to capture potential riders. It's not one or the other, but if funds only allow it to expand to Granville for the time being, then that's fine by me.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Zassk

An interesting point of view, but those 40,000 "captive" UBC trips per non-summer day will be making a significant contribution toward the overall operating cost of the line. My guess is that the business case for a self-funding Broadway line would be hurt by ending the line anywhere short of UBC.

How do those students contribute to the funding of the line? They are captive because they have already paid, Tranlink has their money UBC line or not. They already made their choice by attending UBC, they don't have to make a choice on how to spend their dollars every day. They already pay their upass fees. Any increase in ridership to UBC will actually dip into the slim to none profits that Translink makes off the Upass program. If every students suddenly took transit to UBC the cost of the Upass would need to be increase, making it less affordable for those that really benefit from it.

Originally Posted by dubsH

BOTH UBC and Central Broadway are key to the Broadway-UBC line.

I may be a UBC student now, but I certainly won't be when this thing is done. I won't directly benefit from this line in any way; I certainly won't get a few more minutes of shut eye. In fact, I'll probably pay more to get this thing started, but I'm okay with it.

That is neither here nor there; it's not UBC vs. Central Broadway like you're making it out to be. I'll make no mistake to note that UBC is also a key employment centre, and with a growing number of non-campus residents as well.

No, it's not UBC vs Central Broadway, but my post was in regards to a few people who seemed to think it would be ok to skip having a station at Oak/VGH so that trains could get to UBC faster/cheaper.

UBC is the icing on the cake, the priority is getting people who drive out of their cars, and shaping growth. UBC doesn't really affect population growth in areas. I don't think they build townhouse or condo complexes with UBC students in mind as the sales targets.

You are putting yourself in the shoes of future students. You are thinking about the possible time savings students will have. While I would like to see Skytrain to UBC, having it get there isn't going to be as a fundamental shift in as many lives as simply getting it through Central Broadway would. With workers there having access to transit, they would be encouraged to find homes closer to rapid transit stations in the east.

I would love to see Skytrain out to UBC, but if push came to shove and there wasn't enough money to get it all the way there, it NEEDS to go through to Arbutus and hit the business districts. Transferring to rapid bus or LRT that much closer to UBC will still save students a lot of time.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

That's why the Combo option is attractive to many. It will get commuters into the Central Broadway area fast and be a very easy trip for many people. Most of the people who have a choice, and chose to drive instead of take the bus don't go much further than Arbutus. The Broadway line is about more than improving efficiencies to get to UBC, it's about attracting new riders out of their cars, so we don't have to spend tens of billions on new super roads. As well, most of the areas where we can see large scale densification in both jobs and homes is between Main and MacDonald.

While I like the combo line option. But biggest complaint is what if we build a street car west of arbutus and find out it can't even handle the UBC crowds. Of course during the summer it wouldn't matter so much.

One thought I had is if they do built skytrain all the way to UBC. That during the summer months. Have trains short turn at possibly Arbutus or Alma or Sasamat. So maybe you would only get a train going to UBC every 15 or 30 mins. Those are just numbers and it may have a better headway. We then wouldn't have to run as many trains.

Otherwise this train needs to go to Arbutus at the minimum and there has to be a station at Oak/Willow. There is too big of a gap from Cambie to Granville for that area.