Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

If it was run completely under 10th Ave from Fraser to Blanca, there's no curves it has to negotiate other than the jog it needs to make at Pr. Edward St.

With a 'straight shot' from Fraser to UBC, the trains could run at a higher speed between stations resulting in even lower travel times.

Perhaps even as quick as 15 minutes?
or even quicker?

Even though there wouldn't be any curves along the way, it will still have to rise and fall with the local geography, so we wouldn't want to be rolling so fast we'd feel like we're riding the peaks and valleys of the PNE rollercoaster.

A question: if you rise and fall with the local geography, doesn't that imply that you're using 'cut and cover' most, if not all, the way? Would it not be possible to bore tunnels under some of the steeper hills, thereby keeping the trackbed more level, and avoid that 'roller coaster' effect?

[paradigm4]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Good thing I passed math, Paul's numbers are wrong and he needs to fix them before others grab onto to them and mock him

30km in 39min is not 1.3K/min it's .77Km/min for Expo
20km in 27 min in not 1.35km/min it's .74km/min for Millenium
14.3 in 25 min is not 1.74/km/min it's only .572 for the Canada line.

So using the expo line numbers his 16min now becomes 27mins, still a savings but nowhere near what his math suggested.

It's about the Math stupid ---- Ferris Wheeler Hater 2010

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

Hold on to your horses you guys. I believe Paul wants to calculate it based on the unit min/km as opposed to km/min. So it's how long it takes to go one kilometre of distance. So if you take 39min for 30km on the E-Line, it's 1.3min/km, meaning that it takes 1.3min to travel 1 km of distance on the E-Line. As a result, since the distance between VCC-Clark station and UBC is around 12km, based on the trip times on the E-Line, you take 1.3min/km x 12km = 15.6min!!! (remember, km unit is canceled out in this equation)

I think his calculations are reasonable. It's just that he got the units reversed.

Ya I just got the units mixed. Regardless of whether it's 0.77km/min or 1.3min/km, both come out to 15.5 minutes for the 12 km stretch. Thanks Henry for pointing that out. I've never been very good at math, but I figured the time gains would be substantial, which they are, making it perhaps the one of the best arguments for SkyTrain over LRT.

I suspect the route would have 8 stations. The government/TransLink seems to be building lines nowadays with a focus on the core stations, while designing the system to incorporate additions in the future. I suspect the UBC Line would feature the same build philosophy, with core stops at Finning, Main, Cambie, Granville, Arbutus, Macdonald, Sasamat, and UBC. I could also see stops at Oak, Burrard, and Alma, but I wouldn't deem them necessary for the line's initial success. Number of stations, and overall speed, will ultimately determine the final operational time.

[mr.x]

^ Burrard wouldn't be necessary (though they could build the line to fit in a future station there). Until there's more density and a major bus route that goes through that part of Burrard, a station isn't needed. It's also only 3 blocks from Granville.

But stations at the Oak precinct and Alma Street are definitely needed and will add to the ridership total. A lot of the current 99 B-Line ridership (or lets just say total Broadway bus ridership) does come from these two stops, especially with Oak. A station at Oak would serve the Vancouver General Hospital district (big employer) and there's also bus ridership coming from the Oak trolleys.

To save costs, UBC would be better off with just one major station for now...defer any plans for a second station to the future.

[deasine]

Oak is necessary: Willow is actually a really busy stop.

[CLC]

^ In fact, way more people used Willow stop than Cambie in the earlier days of 99-b, of course the scenario is different now with Canada Line connection.
The distance between Cambie and Granville is arguably a huge gap, i would see Oak or Willow stop being necessary.

[mr.x]

How are these for estimates:


DAILY RIDERSHIP:
- Commercial: 60,000; Broadway: 70,000
- VCC: ???
- Finning: ???
- Main Street-Broadway: 18,000
- Cambie-City Hall: 40,000
- Oak/VGH: 18,000
- South Granville: 25,000
- Arbutus: 11,000 (without streetcar)
- Macdonald: 12,000
- Alma: 8,000
- Sasamat: 9,000
- UBC: 45,000



TRAVEL TIMES/STATION DWELLING TIMES (very approximate):

>> VCC Station << 30-secs >> Finning Station >>

- Finning Station: 15-secs dwell

<< Finning Station << 2-min >> Main Street-Broadway Station >>

- Main Street-Broadway Station: 30-secs dwell

<< Main Street-Broadway Station << 1-min >> Cambie-City Hall Station >>

- Cambie-City Hall Station: 35-secs dwell

<< Cambie-City Hall Station << 1-min >> Oak Street-VGH Station >>

- Oak Street-VGH Station: 30-secs dwell

<< Oak Street-VGH Station << 1-min >> South Granville Station >>

- South Granville Station: 30-secs dwell

<< South Granville Station << 2-min >> Arbutus Station >>

- Arbutus Station: 25-secs dwell

<< Arbutus Station << 1min30secs >> Macdonald Station >>

- Macdonald Station: 20-secs dwell

<< Macdonald Station << 2min >> Alma Station >>

- Alma Station: 20-secs dwell

<< Alma Station << 2-mins >> Sasamat Station >>

- Sasamat Station: 20-secs dwell

<< Sasamat Station << 3-mins >> UBC Station >>



TOTAL: ~19mins45secs

[jsbertram]

It seems that we're a little too focused on UBC traffic, and seem to be forgetting there are other high-traffic destinations along Broadway:

VGH, and related medical buildings
CoV City Hall

So there is probably going to be as much traffic generated by those two sites alone as will be generated by UBC. Perhaps a doctor working at VGH or with offices in the Oak-Cambie area will discover that driving from Point Grey or Burnaby or Coquitlam just doesn't make sense after the train station is built near their office building, and the trains takes half the time

With VGH being one of UBC's affiliated teaching hospitals, there may be a lot of people using the new trains to hop between these sites (assuming an Oak-Willow station) because its easier than driving.

As Broadway redevelops into a 'linear downtown' I can see Bentall Centre -size redevelopments happening around the new stations
ie: Kingsgate Mall, or the south half of the IGA site at B'way/Arbutus., or the Safeway at 10th/Sasamat, or the rest of the block at Cambie/B'Way that isn't already the C-line City Hall Station.

The buildings won't be 30 or 40 stories tall, but they will max out the blocks with condo towers, office towers, and retail. As the areas around the stations densify and gain traffic in the coming decades, UBC may become just another of the high-volume destinations along the route instead of THE high-volume destination it is today.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

A question: if you rise and fall with the local geography, doesn't that imply that you're using 'cut and cover' most, if not all, the way? Would it not be possible to bore tunnels under some of the steeper hills, thereby keeping the trackbed more level, and avoid that 'roller coaster' effect?

I've heard that some systems built with TBMs have used pseudo- hyperbolic tunnels between the stations so that a train leaving the station gets a 'gravity assist' going into the hyperbolic curve, and after reaching the bottom of the curve, then gravity is used to slow down the train before the next station.

Apparently the curve doesn't need to be too deep - just a few times the height of the car at the bottom of the curve as compared to a 'straight line' tunnel between the stations.

The advantages are that less electricity is needed to accelerate out of the station (heading down the curve), and less electricity & braking is needed when arriving at the next station (rising up the curve). Using less electricity and replacing brake disc pads less often saves $$$s. The engineering and construction of these tunnels isn't trivial, but the operating cost-savings are measurable.

[deasine]

^Canada Line has these in the downtown stations in case you haven't noticed already.

[nname]

Originally Posted by mr.x

How are these for estimates:

TRAVEL TIMES/STATION DWELLING TIMES (very approximate):
>> VCC Station << 30-secs >> Finning Station >>
- Finning Station: 15-secs dwell
<< Finning Station << 2-min >> Main Street-Broadway Station >>
- Main Street-Broadway Station: 30-secs dwell
<< Main Street-Broadway Station << 1-min >> Cambie-City Hall Station >>
- Cambie-City Hall Station: 35-secs dwell
<< Cambie-City Hall Station << 1-min >> Oak Street-VGH Station >>
- Oak Street-VGH Station: 30-secs dwell
<< Oak Street-VGH Station << 1-min >> South Granville Station >>
- South Granville Station: 30-secs dwell
<< South Granville Station << 2-min >> Arbutus Station >>
- Arbutus Station: 25-secs dwell
<< Arbutus Station << 1min30secs >> Macdonald Station >>
- Macdonald Station: 20-secs dwell
<< Macdonald Station << 2min >> Alma Station >>
- Alma Station: 20-secs dwell
<< Alma Station << 2-mins >> Sasamat Station >>
- Sasamat Station: 20-secs dwell
<< Sasamat Station << 3-mins >> UBC Station >>

TOTAL: ~17mins

The dwell time seems a bit long and the running time seems a bit short... and also your total is incorrect, should be 19min 45sec...

From the RTM document, this is the average for Expo and Millennium Line:

Average station dwell time [s] = 10 + 0.004 * P
Average speed [km/s] = 27.68 + 12.46 * D

where P is the total boarding+alighting between 7 and 9am, D is the distance in km between stations. The dwell time is typically 30s at transfer stations, slightly less for major stations, all the way to the minimum of 12s for the least-used stations. From the second equation, we can derive:

Average time between station [min] = D / (0.461 + 0.208 * D)

My estimate of arrival time from Commercial using the data:

01:23 VCC/Clark [1:23 travel, 12s dwell]
02:45 Finning [1:09 travel, 12s dwell]
04:38 Main/Mount Pleasant [1:41 travel, 20s dwell]
06:28 Broadway/City Hall [1:30 travel, 30s dwell]
08:07 Oak/VGH [1:09 travel, 20s dwell]
10:02 South Granville [1:36 travel, 24s dwell]
11:56 Arbutus [1:30 travel, 18s dwell]
13:50 Macdonald [1:36 travel, 18s dwell]
15:54 Alma [1:47 travel, 15s dwell]
18:15 Sasmat [2:05 travel, 15s dwell]
21:13 UBC [2:44 travel]

Average speed: 38.46 km/h

.. if not counting the section east of VCC, the total travel time would be 19:38.. so our estimate actually only differ by 7 seconds? XD

[EDIT]
I think my dwell time is still on the high side, since for the break at CO scenario, they only assume a 18s dwell at Metrotown and 15s at Lougheed.. The only stations on the Canada Line with over 15s dwell time is Bridgeport (18s) and Van City Ctr (16s), and the only stations on the Evergreen that's worthy of 15s dwell is Port Moody and Coquitlam Central (the others are all 12s)... Maybe instead using these dwell times:
12s - VCC, Finning, Arbutus, Alma, Sasmat
15s - Main, Oak, Granville, Macdonald
20s - City Hall

I won't repost everything, but the new travel time would be 20:29.. or 18:54 not counting Commercial-VCC segment. Average speed: 39.83 km/h

[Zassk]

Yes, please don't forget the Oak station. When "Central Broadway" is said to be the 2nd biggest commuter destination in Metro Van, it is really the Oak/VGH precinct that is being described. VGH and UBC are the main reasons to build the line in the first place.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I've heard that some systems built with TBMs have used pseudo- hyperbolic tunnels between the stations so that a train leaving the station gets a 'gravity assist' going into the hyperbolic curve, and after reaching the bottom of the curve, then gravity is used to slow down the train before the next station.

Apparently the curve doesn't need to be too deep - just a few times the height of the car at the bottom of the curve as compared to a 'straight line' tunnel between the stations.

The advantages are that less electricity is needed to accelerate out of the station (heading down the curve), and less electricity & braking is needed when arriving at the next station (rising up the curve). Using less electricity and replacing brake disc pads less often saves $$$s. The engineering and construction of these tunnels isn't trivial, but the operating cost-savings are measurable.

That's awesome, I always figured there was a reason why all these extra grades were added to the tunnel.

[Zassk]

^ In the case of the Canada Line, the other reason for the rollercoaster downtown is because it must rise over top of the Expo Line tunnel.

[twoNeurons]

anyone know if the Rotems have regenerative braking at all? I know that's one big advantage of Linear Induction Motors ( read: SkyTrain ) is that it's relatively easy to feed power back into the system when decelerating.

[MalcolmTucker]

I would imagine they would, as it decreases maintenance too. Regenerative breaking isn't too fancy of a technology, I do believe even Calgary's 1980s vintage LRVs have it.

[paradigm4]

Originally Posted by CLC

^ In fact, way more people used Willow stop than Cambie in the earlier days of 99-b, of course the scenario is different now with Canada Line connection.
The distance between Cambie and Granville is arguably a huge gap, i would see Oak or Willow stop being necessary.

According to Google Maps, the walk to VGH from Broadway and Cambie is ten minutes. Would a station right at the hospital be nice? Of course it would. But considering how close they are, and if money is an issue, they maybe that's a station that could be delayed.

Of course, if we're going solely off numbers, it seems like Sasamat or Alma could be future stations.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by paradigm4

According to Google Maps, the walk to VGH from Broadway and Cambie is ten minutes. Would a station right at the hospital be nice? Of course it would. But considering how close they are, and if money is an issue, they maybe that's a station that could be delayed.

Of course, if we're going solely off numbers, it seems like Sasamat or Alma could be future stations.

Given a choice. I'd rather build a station at Oak/Willow and make the stations at Sasamat and Alma future stations.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by paradigm4

According to Google Maps, the walk to VGH from Broadway and Cambie is ten minutes. Would a station right at the hospital be nice? Of course it would. But considering how close they are, and if money is an issue, they maybe that's a station that could be delayed.

Of course, if we're going solely off numbers, it seems like Sasamat or Alma could be future stations.

From a financing point of view, a station right at VGH may be out of the question now. But it would be ae extremely pertinent place to have a station, both from the number of employees there, and for getting people to the hospital quickly: those that aren't using an ambulance.

[deasine]

Hold on here. Just because a station is at VGH doesn't mean it serves only VGH. The Central Broadway business district is located right between Cambie and Hemlock, where Oak/Laurel/Willow is in the centre. A station at Oak will really benefit the entire area as a whole, and a station at Oak will give rapid transit access to many more residents. A line without a station at Oak is like a line without a station at Arbutus. In fact, I would probably argue that the station at Oak is more important than a station at Arbutus.

[dubsH]

Originally Posted by paradigm4

Of course, if we're going solely off numbers, it seems like Sasamat or Alma could be future stations.

I can see Sasamat being a future station, but the gap between Macdonald and UBC is a bit long without a station in between. Anecdotally, Alma seems to have quite a lot of people getting on/off and switching to a different bus, so a station (although costly) may be more beneficial to include than to exclude.

I support SkyTrain ALL THE WAY to UBC. I would rather not have LRT at all serving Broadway (and continue using B-line if Millenium Line is only extended up to Arbutus), and have it serve other corridors (Arbutus is a major one).