Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[deasine]

I'm estimating the cost of LRT to be about 43 million/km between UBC and Arbutus, which is roughly the cost for the TransitCity projects in Toronto. From Arbutus onwards to Granville Island, there is existing ROW, but there needs to be new tracks and new wiring obviously, but this portion can probably be built cheaper at 30 million/km. There is enough room to make a turn at Granville Island without having any tunneling. Onwards from Granville Island to Olympic Village, there only needs to be double tracking and new wiring and I wouldn't be surprised if that portion can be built for 15 million/km. From Olympic Village onwards, depending on how City of Vancouver builds First Avenue, it could be built around 35 million/km. These costs include vehicles and a new OMC built near Main Street. SkyTrain from Arbutus to GNW should be about 125 million/km, and GNW-VCC is about 75 million/km. That will mean about 400 million in savings compared to RRT option is built. And that's only assuming if the RRT option is underground throughout. It will definitely be cheaper if the portion between Blanca and UEL is at-grade. But then again, 400 million can almost build LRT throughout the Arbutus corridor.

LRTs can do 90 degree turns, but it is certainly not in the best solution for the Alma intersection.

[nname]

Hmm.. the turn at Granville Island seems interesting. At-grade is doable using 4th avenue, but there's probably no room for a station close to Granville Island (at 4th ave) unless they cut-off Anderson and/or reconstruct a portion of Granville street bridge. If the turn is at 2nd avenue, then the station can be at the current Granville Island station location, but it'll have to cut across Anderson, 2nd Avenue twice, 4th Avenue, and Fir street within 1km, and they're all major street (3rd and 5th can be blocked off I guess). This would probably make it much worse than the Broadway-10th-Alma turn...

[Edit] Looking at street-view, I guess 4th is wide enough for a slightly trenched station.. but they'll have to remove the bike path and sidewalk in the south side

[nname]

Originally Posted by deasine

Onwards from Granville Island to Olympic Village, there only needs to be double tracking and new wiring and I wouldn't be surprised if that portion can be built for 15 million/km.

Way too low.

Assume the following:
- One-way trip of 40min or less (slightly less than the 41min for Broadway LRT)
- Peak headway of 6min
- 3-cars train
- Each car cost about 4 millions
- Total length of the track is 11.5km

This would mean 10 trains per hour, minimum of 45 active cars in service. Add 5 cars for spare to give rolling stock of 50 cars, which would cost 200 millions. This average out to be 17.4 millions per km. And if the OMC costs about 40~50 millions, it would also add 4 millions to the cost per km.

So this would mean the track, power, and station would cost -6.4 millions per km to build in that section

I think 25~35 millions/km would probably be a better number for this section.

[racc]

Originally Posted by mattropolis

I like the combination option. It will be cheaper in the short term and in the long term the SkyTrain can be extended to UBC. The idea of the streetcar/tram going along the false creek line will be a bonus, if it is done right. perhaps a tunnel from the granville island station to avoid 4th ave and burrard. The transfer station at Arbutus/Broadway would have to be well designed to allow easy cross-platform transfers with no stairs but not preclude eventual extension of SkyTrain westward.

Actually, the combo option maybe more expensive in the near term (10 to 20 years). The problem is that by encouraging people on the Expo Line to go to Main Station so they don't have to transfer twice on the way to UBC and other points west of Arbutus, there will be even more people on the busiest section of the Expo Line. This means that the expensive platform lengthening for the Expo Line to handle longer trains would have to happen sooner. As the cost is between $1 and $2 billion, this means that other priorities would have to wait.

There is a related issue with the LRT only options. If the Millennium Line is extended to at least the Canada Line, many of the people heading downtown would likely continue on to the Canada Line instead of transferring to the Expo Line. This again could delay the need to expand the platforms on the Expo Line. If instead the UBC Line is LRT, hardly anyone would transfer from the Millennium Line to the LRT then the LRT to the Canada Line to get downtown.

Hopefully, when evaluating the options, they consider system-wide implications.

[nname]

Just realized that this was the spec for the 800 millions LRT options from the previous study:
- 60m platform (fitting 2 cars-train carrying 320 passengers each)
- 3min max frequency (ultimate system capacity 6400pphpd)
- System running well below 2000pphpd most of the time

I don't think anyone now can say that this system would be even close to be enough to satisify the demand for the Broadway corridor.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by nname

Way too low.

Assume the following:
- One-way trip of 40min or less (slightly less than the 41min for Broadway LRT)
- Peak headway of 6min
- 3-cars train
- Each car cost about 4 millions
- Total length of the track is 11.5km

This would mean 10 trains per hour, minimum of 45 active cars in service. Add 5 cars for spare to give rolling stock of 50 cars, which would cost 200 millions. This average out to be 17.4 millions per km. And if the OMC costs about 40~50 millions, it would also add 4 millions to the cost per km.

So this would mean the track, power, and station would cost -6.4 millions per km to build in that section

I think 25~35 millions/km would probably be a better number for this section.

So thats just the construction and startup costs.
What are the annual operation costs?

I'm thinking you'll be spending several million per year on LRT/Streetcar/Tram train drivers, that aren't an expense with SkyTrain.

Station maintenance, and security would be comparable per station between either system, but LRT would likely be higher overall because there would be more stations.

A separate LRT OMC would lead to higher annual costs for train maintenance because of the need for specialized staff that can't also be used to maintain SkyTrain. The OMC for Rotem C-Line equipment can be used as a guide for comparing the costs of running a separate OMC with its own maintenance & operations staff vs. enlarging the existing Skytrain OMC & hiring more maintenance & operations staff there. We can also find out how many more people were needed at Edmonds OMC to service the extra 50 Mark IIbis SkyTrain cars that arrived for the Olympics, and how many more people were hired to handle the operations of the Expo & Millennium lines running these extra cars.

With those numbers in hand, we can estimate annual costs of running Evergreen and UBC Lines using Skytrain, the annual costs of running Downtown & Arbutus Corridor Streetcars, and 99B-line buses from different eastern terminals (Commercial, Cambie, Arbutus, Alma).

With the real-world numbers and estimates available, smarter decisions can be made. ie: we may discover that X dollars can be saved by building Streetcars instead of SkyTrain, but after 15 years the annual cost of operating streetcars exceeds Skytrain's annual cost on the same line, so over the lifetime of the system Skytrain is actually cheaper - despite higher construction and startup costs.

[Xerx]

interesting questions about the combination option from the human transit blog...

* Don't we need an alternative with SkyTrain to Arbutus plus Bus Rapid Transit, rather than light rail, to UBC? A SkyTrain+light rail combination option is going to be very expensive, and could be shot down if it doesn't have a cheaper solution in its pocket that still solves the problem of connecting the Millennium and Canada Lines.

* Does light rail via South False Creek really provide the cross-regional travel time that UBC needs? Think about a trip from UBC to anywhere on the mid-Expo line, such as Joyce or Metrotown. Would you ride light rail all the way to Main Street station, a longer travel path than you have via the bus today? Or would you transfer at Arbutus to the Millennium Line and then transfer again to the Expo Line, one more connection than you have to make today? (Or would you just ride the 41st or 49th Avenue bus the whole way, as you may be doing now?) Is there a risk of spending billions and ending up with something that's no faster than the current bus, at least from the perspective of some major UBC markets?

* Is Main Street station, which hangs directly over a busy arterial at one of Vancouver's worst traffic chokepoints, really a place where you can bring light rail right up to SkyTrain and transfer huge volumes of people, while keeping light rail completely segregated from traffic?

http://www.humantransit.org/2010/04/vancouvers-broadway-corridor-options-announced.html

[deasine]

Originally Posted by nname

This would mean 10 trains per hour, minimum of 45 active cars in service. Add 5 cars for spare to give rolling stock of 50 cars, which would cost 200 millions. This average out to be 17.4 millions per km. And if the OMC costs about 40~50 millions, it would also add 4 millions to the cost per km.

If you are literally building nothing in between the stations, that's the cost. The point being, the cost for that portion will be lower than everything else because the current track has been upgraded already, and there is room left to double track. At the end of the day, there will be cost savings by building the combination alternative, but the question really goes down to, is the alternative "fit" enough or is it worth the cost savings, because 400 million relative to the entire project isn't a lot of money.

[mrjauk]

The city just sent out another e-mail regarding the city staff report to be sent/presented(?) to City Council on the Broadway Transit corridor.

Good afternoon,

On April 22nd, City staff will report to Council on the rapid transit principles for the Broadway Corridor and UBC Line Rapid Transit Study. The principles are based on a draft version presented in January, and have been revised using public feedback received earlier this year.

* View the April Council report (PDF)
* View the comments received (PDF)
* View the Council agenda

Please visit our updated website www.vancouver.ca/ubcline for more information.

If you did not receive a notification regarding the upcoming City Council Standing Committee on Planning and Environment meeting, please let me know and I will ensure you receive the information.

Kind regards,
Bonnie

[Vonny]

Originally Posted by racc

Actually, the combo option maybe more expensive in the near term (10 to 20 years). The problem is that by encouraging people on the Expo Line to go to Main Station so they don't have to transfer twice on the way to UBC and other points west of Arbutus, there will be even more people on the busiest section of the Expo Line. This means that the expensive platform lengthening for the Expo Line to handle longer trains would have to happen sooner. As the cost is between $1 and $2 billion, this means that other priorities would have to wait.

This point is probably moot, because as you mention, some current Millenium-Expo line transfers will be replaced by Millenium-canada line ones, freeing some room on the busiest section of the Expo corridor.

also Peak hour traffic for UBC, is at different time of peak hour for DT so mitigating the stress on the Broadway-Main corridor.

At the end UBC traffic pattern is able to adapt pretty quickly (student are not tied to their house like a head of familiy with a 35 years mortgage on it), so you could expect that in fact UBC student tend to locate on the most direct route to UBC, and could more readily consider living in the vicinity of the Millenium line than the one of the expo line as currently...
Finally better balancing the system.

[deasine]

The problem with the Combination Alternative, I find, is the fact that passengers are shuttled to Main Street. Can you imagine a LRT train three quarters full, disembarking at Main Street during rush hours, then transferred onto packed SkyTrains that can't fit anymore people?

[nname]

Originally Posted by deasine

If you are literally building nothing in between the stations, that's the cost. The point being, the cost for that portion will be lower than everything else because the current track has been upgraded already, and there is room left to double track. At the end of the day, there will be cost savings by building the combination alternative, but the question really goes down to, is the alternative "fit" enough or is it worth the cost savings, because 400 million relative to the entire project isn't a lot of money.

What I meant is that only the train and OMC would account for more than 21 millions/km, so I think your estimate east of Arbutus (30, 15 millions/km) is a bit too low, and the saving for the LRT would probably be less than 400 millions.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by deasine

The problem with the Combination Alternative, I find, is the fact that passengers are shuttled to Main Street. Can you imagine a LRT train three quarters full, disembarking at Main Street during rush hours, then transferred onto packed SkyTrains that can't fit anymore people?

It wouldn't be that bad if the Malkin Connector is built and most traffic leaving downtown via the Viaducts travels that way instead of making the left turn at Main & Terminal. That way the light could cycle faster and reduce wait times (for people crossing the street).

[deasine]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

It wouldn't be that bad if the Malkin Connector is built and most traffic leaving downtown via the Viaducts travels that way instead of making the left turn at Main & Terminal. That way the light could cycle faster and reduce wait times (for people crossing the street).

That will definitely help, but the problem is... how do people even get onto the SkyTrain.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by deasine

That will definitely help, but the problem is... how do people even get onto the SkyTrain.

I think if you put an LRT station where the South Parking lot for Science world is on Quebec Street, then crossing the street from Main Street Station would probably be a tiny bit further walk than the transfer at Broadway-Commercial. That way the actual train doesn't need to deal with the traffic at Main/Terminal/Quebec, just the people do.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I think if you put an LRT station where the South Parking lot for Science world is on Quebec Street, then crossing the street from Main Street Station would probably be a tiny bit further walk than the transfer at Broadway-Commercial. That way the actual train doesn't need to deal with the traffic at Main/Terminal/Quebec, just the people do.

I think you are misunderstanding me LOL. I'm not talking about access and transferring between the two modes. Let me be a little bit more clear: SkyTrains coming out from downtown are normally quite full, not just even during rush hours. In fact, I would say passups are normal during peak periods, but aren't as big of an issue since trains come often. However, if you add a 3/4 full LRT train at Main Street, there could be potential problems with crowding.

Also, Main St has quite a narrow island platform that isn't suitable for use as a transfer station.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by deasine

I think you are misunderstanding me LOL. I'm not talking about access and transferring between the two modes. Let me be a little bit more clear: SkyTrains coming out from downtown are normally quite full, not just even during rush hours. In fact, I would say passups are normal during peak periods, but aren't as big of an issue since trains come often. However, if you add a 3/4 full LRT train at Main Street, there could be potential problems with crowding.

Also, Main St has quite a narrow island platform that isn't suitable for use as a transfer station.

Yeah, I see what you mean, but Broadway is like that everyday right now. But with more travel pattern options (specifically M-Line to Canada Line) as system usage goes up travel on that section could remain the same. I also think most students would be unafraid to use their feet and realize that transferring at Arbutus then again at Commercial would actually be much faster than being lazy. It will be busy, but not busier than Commercial is now.

Building through to Main street is just the logical completion of extending the LRT to directly connect with the Canada Line. By connecting at the Olympic Village station, travelers from Downtown can take C-Line and do 1 transfer to UBC, which at that distance would be more comparable to doing 2 transfers (City Hall, then Arbutus).

I fully prefer Skytrain all the way to UBC and not having LRT involved in the project (and having a separate streetcar project), but if it's financially and politically unfeasible, then the combination option, can work. LRT from Arbutus to UBC might function more like streetcar, and might not be faster on that leg, but it could have much better volume (fewer passups). It's not the best option, but it's also far from bad.

[racc]

Originally Posted by Vonny

This point is probably moot, because as you mention, some current Millenium-Expo line transfers will be replaced by Millenium-canada line ones, freeing some room on the busiest section of the Expo corridor.

Not really. Commercial-Main will be the busiest section of the line and the combo option will make it busier than it would be under the SkyTrain all the way to UBC option.

Originally Posted by Vonny

also Peak hour traffic for UBC, is at different time of peak hour for DT so mitigating the stress on the Broadway-Main corridor.

Peak hour is an hour later for UBC however, under the Combo option UBC Broadway Commercial would be getting close to an hour away from UBC via the LRT from Main meaning that if someone is going to UBC in peak, they would mixing with some of the peak traffic heading downtown.

The Main LRT would generate additional ridership also as people use it to get to Granville Island and other destinations along the way via the Expo Line. While this in general is a good thing, this additional ridership that will again increase the load on the Commercial-Main segment.

Originally Posted by Vonny

At the end UBC traffic pattern is able to adapt pretty quickly (student are not tied to their house like a head of familiy with a 35 years mortgage on it), so you could expect that in fact UBC student tend to locate on the most direct route to UBC, and could more readily consider living in the vicinity of the Millenium line than the one of the expo line as currently...
Finally better balancing the system.

Not likely. The overloaded B-Line is strong evidence that this does not happen.

Anyway, no point in us trying to figure all this out. This should be done when they evaluating the options to see if it is an issue or not.

[racc]

Originally Posted by deasine

The problem with the Combination Alternative, I find, is the fact that passengers are shuttled to Main Street. Can you imagine a LRT train three quarters full, disembarking at Main Street during rush hours, then transferred onto packed SkyTrains that can't fit anymore people?

Or a full SkyTrain disembarking at Arbutus during rush hour, then transferred onto three quarters full LRT for the trip to UBC.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Yeah, I see what you mean, but Broadway is like that everyday right now. But with more travel pattern options (specifically M-Line to Canada Line) as system usage goes up travel on that section could remain the same. I also think most students would be unafraid to use their feet and realize that transferring at Arbutus then again at Commercial would actually be much faster than being lazy. It will be busy, but not busier than Commercial is now.

Not really. At least at Commercial-Broadway, a lot of people will be disembarking at the station to transfer. The issue in Main's case is that not a lot of people from downtown will get off and take the LRT when they could've rode a bus to where ever they needed to get to.