[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

Some of the against comments are funny

Yes, they are amusing. This one is typical:

Stop destroying the only beautiful city in Canada. NO MORE HIGH RISES IN DOWN TOWN Halifax, The down town of Ottawa is ruined and is forever a wet place as no sun falls on the side walks.

[Wishblade]

Some of the against comments are funny[/QUOTE]

Theres only one I agree with:

"let the people speak"

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Yes, they are amusing. This one is typical:

Hahahah

How can you take someone seriously with comments like this

[sdm]

Originally Posted by Wishblade

Some of the against comments are funny

Theres only one I agree with:

"let the people speak" [/QUOTE]

Yup, and like i said, its our money so lets see the facts clear and decide if we want our money going towards this. We might decicde that a new arena or other public venue may be money better spent.

I just want to see the facts for a change, not just statements without facts. If we are losing out it should be easy to prove.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by sdm

Its call supply and demand empire.

The trade centre would supply enough space for this market for at least 5-8 years on historical absorption rates. The latest rates show it will be longer.

Obviously you have no clue how developments and market demands work.

I guess you are the market expert. So acording to your math if all of these other developments were under way then we would never not even be seeing a Trade Centre proposal. The point is, these other developments are a long way from breaking ground and if the Trade Centre starts and bumps some of them further down the road then that is called the early bird gets the worm whether it was because of gov. funding or not.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by Empire

I guess you are the market expert. So acording to your math if all of these other developments were under way then we would never not even be seeing a Trade Centre proposal. The point is, these other developments are a long way from breaking ground and if the Trade Centre starts and bumps some of them further down the road then that is called early bird gets the worm whether it was because gov. funding or not.

Considering i've been in the development industry for over 20 years i do consider myself educated, but no one is an expert regardless of what they may tell you.

I am however fairly confident i know more of the situation then you do.

Your interpuation of the math is incorrect. The market cannot support multi developments at the same time based on the historical and current trends.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

Considering i've been in the development industry for over 20 years i do consider myself educated, but no one is an expert regardless of what they may tell you.

I am however fairly confident i know more of the situation then you do.

Your interpuation of the math is incorrect. The market cannot support multi developments at the same time based on the historical and current trends.

There are quite a few optimists here on SSP. I hope that Halifax will grow and become a major city in the future. After all, it happened in places like Montreal, Boston, NY, etc. They were all much smaller at one time. I don't see why Halifax can't become a major city in the future (however, having a city the size of Toronto or NY probably isn't desirable in Nova Scotia, maybe a city the size of Ottawa would be sufficient).

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

There are quite a few optimists here on SSP. I hope that Halifax will grow and become a major city in the future. After all, it happened in places like Montreal, Boston, NY, etc. They were all much smaller at one time. I don't see why Halifax can't become a major city in the future (however, having a city the size of Toronto or NY probably isn't desirable in Nova Scotia, maybe a city the size of Ottawa would be sufficient).

Fenwick I share your optimism, but we need the buy in of all levels of government to push this city to what it can truly become.

Governments should be looking at what truly attracts business to locate to Halifax. Certainly recent discussions on tax increases in both provincial and municipal governments don't help that cause. I just wish the governments would focus more on finding ways to lower taxes, and promote us as an open and business friendly place to be. If business chose to locate here people will natural come in my opinion. We are of aging population and the long term sustainability is in jeopardy unless we grow this area, and fast.

The unfortunate problem is we are looking at projects like trade centre as the single greatest change to promote Halifax, but there are so many other larger influences that are considered.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by sdm

Considering i've been in the development industry for over 20 years i do consider myself educated, but no one is an expert regardless of what they may tell you.

I am however fairly confident i know more of the situation then you do.

Your interpuation of the math is incorrect. The market cannot support multi developments at the same time based on the historical and current trends.

As long as your confidence is not pride you may do O.K. Your message is confusing. Are you for a trade centre c/w hotel and office building or do you want these other wanna be developments to wait until the vacancy rate is zero to start building so they can have their market share?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

News on new trade centre coming soon, premier says

By DAVID JACKSON Provincial Reporter
Fri. Sep 4 - 4:46 AM

News about a new World Trade and Convention Centre in downtown Halifax is coming soon, Premier Darrell Dexter said Thursday.

Mr. Dexter said the project is one of many announced by the previous Tory government that has been under review.

"The trade and convention centre question is one that I’ve had a close look at," Mr. Dexter said after Thursday’s cabinet meeting.

"It is a matter that we’re still considering closely, and shortly we’ll have more news on it."

Note the date on this story.

Yet another broken promise.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by Empire

As long as your confidence is not pride you may do O.K. Your message is confusing. Are you for a trade centre c/w hotel and office building or do you want these other wanna be developments to wait until the vacancy rate is zero to start building so they can have their market share?

My message is not confusing, just stating we can't expect everyone of the other developments to proceed and that if this one gets a jump start it could delay or kill others.

I recently read how Mayor Kelly thinks others will go if this goes (trade centre). He is completely out to lunch to think such. It has to do with market conditions, of which would need to improve beyond anything Halifax has seen. I am positive things will change, but the change required is unrealistic. There are tremendous restriction on private development when it comes to lending, such as 80% preleasing requirements and for hotels a minimum of 50% equity.

Therefore I do not support subsidizing a development to allow it to proceed over others, especially when it comes to public money. Unfortunatley i believe this could be the case for this development.

As for the for or against. I am pro trade centre as long as the numbers support the investment. I will be honest i don't care for the current proposal because of its lack luster design, and more the reason its location. But those are not true grounds not to support it as there is no rules governing design or location for this project.

[Wishblade]

Analyst: Centre will pay off


By BILL POWER Business Reporter
Sat. Mar 20 - 4:54 AM

Using the current state of the economy as an argument against a new convention centre for Halifax is a huge mistake, an industry analyst said Friday.

Michael Hughes, vice-president of consulting and research for Tradeshow Week in the United States, said the convention industry mirrors the state of the economy, and all significant indicators suggest a rebound of the Canadian and U.S. economies will be underway by the end of this year.

"Halifax would need only to attract a handful of new events each year to justify the investment in a new convention centre," Hughes said.

In fact, by the time construction was finished, the economy would be back to normal and the city would immediately begin reaping rewards from the investment, he said.

"There has been some sluggishness across the board in the market segment the facility in Halifax caters to," he said. "There is also lots of evidence indicating this segment will be one of the first to bounce back with the economy improving."

The Coalition to Save the View from Citadel Hill, a group that opposes the convention centre project because of the two highrise towers it includes, used statistics from Tradeshow Weekly to back up its argument that the convention industry in North America has been in decline since the end of the 1990s.

Hughes, who has visited Halifax, said the numbers the coalition used in its presentation at a news conference Thursday referred to some of the biggest conventions at the largest venues in North America and really do not apply to Halifax.

"Halifax is a Tier 3 facility that had some success attracting Tier 2 events," he said. "With a new centre, the city would be a serious contender for more Tier 2 events."

Tradeshow Weekly publishes statistics reflecting attendance and exhibitor participation at the top 200 Tier 1 conventions in the U.S. and the top 50 in Canada.

"These are the some of the world’s biggest industry events that can attract tens of thousands of visitors," Hughes said. "No offence, but Halifax does not play in this league."

The numbers do indicate a significant decrease in exhibitor participation at big shows, which he said reflects the state of the economy.

"This is less of an issue with smaller venues, where there is more of a focus on amenities required for educational seminars and that sort of thing," Hughes said.

He said professional development conferences and industry association meetings are the sort of events a smaller centre like Halifax wants to attract, and it is in this context that the province’s proposed $100-million investment in a new, larger convention centre makes sense.

( [email protected])

[fenwick16]

Great find Wishblade. It seems like this convention centre could very well make Halifax a serious Tier 2 destination.

Based on what I have read, Tier 2 would include cities such as Ottawa and Calgary, whereas Tier 1 would be Toronto, NY, Vancouver, etc. Thus Halifax would be on a more level footing with cities such as Ottawa. I wonder if Halifax might even get a tier 1 event once in a while?

[halifaxboyns]

There is huge talk of expanding the Telus Convention Centre here in Calgary - because of it's size limits. I remember when i first moved here (and visited) I kept thinking - jesus it's a huge monster of a convention centre. I went to a Westjet party there (because I was dating someone from WJ) - it was a huge party; they had every bay on the upper floor! I remember doing my SMU grad at the WTC in Halifax and it had all the bays and it was - so small in comparrison!

If Halifax could end up on the same level is Calgary - I can say honestly; you'll be getting more conventions.

When I go get coffee at Tim's, I have to walk past the the convention centre and it's constantly busy. If Halifax could even do a fraction of that level; you guys would be good to go!

[DigitalNinja]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Note the date on this story.

Yet another broken promise.

Did you really expect more from the NDP.
The only reason they got voted in was because of obscene promises.
And the fact that people who don't contribute to anything want everything.
Funny how that works.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

There is huge talk of expanding the Telus Convention Centre here in Calgary - because of it's size limits. I remember when i first moved here (and visited) I kept thinking - jesus it's a huge monster of a convention centre. I went to a Westjet party there (because I was dating someone from WJ) - it was a huge party; they had every bay on the upper floor! I remember doing my SMU grad at the WTC in Halifax and it had all the bays and it was - so small in comparrison!

If Halifax could end up on the same level is Calgary - I can say honestly; you'll be getting more conventions.

When I go get coffee at Tim's, I have to walk past the the convention centre and it's constantly busy. If Halifax could even do a fraction of that level; you guys would be good to go!

If you consider conventions in Canada, and just consider the two cities, based on a destination, then I think Halifax can get many of the same conventions as Calgary (with the new convention centre in Halifax). Especially since Halifax is closer to the large population cities such as Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto. If you consider Tier 2 international conventions, then Halifax is also closer to the heavily populated east coast. Halifax does quite well in attracting conventions and I feel that it will do much better with the new convention centre.

[fenwick16]

Based on what I have read about the new Halifax Convention Centre (60,000 square feet exhibit hall, with 300,000 square feet overall of meeting space) it will be very competitive in the Tier 2 convention market (examples: Calgary, Winnipeg, Edmonton and Ottawa). I found the following links to the convention centres in these 4 cities:

Ottawa: http://ottawaconventioncentre.com/en/exhibiting/facility-overview
Winnipeg: http://www.wcc.mb.ca/aboutthecentre.php
Calgary: http://www.calgarytelusconventioncentre.net/
Edmonton: http://www.edmonton.com/shaw-conference-centre/about-scc.aspx

I really hope that this goes ahead. This is an area in which Halifax can compete with much bigger cities since Halifax is close to a largely populated geographic area, has a good airport, has many historic sites, is in a scenic province and has a record of attracting such conventions.

PS: The 1.25 million square foot number for this complex includes the office and hotel footage.

[spaustin]

Originally Posted by sdm

Just to illustrate the numbers, the historical average absorption rate for Halifax market (all nodes, downtown and sub's) is roughly 80,000 square feet per year. In the last two - two qtrs we've seen lots of absorption in the burb's, but are seeing negative within the CBD. Most of the absorption is companies already located in the market moving around (out migration).

Hopefully attitudes will change and the market will welcome new developments, but the reality is that we can't build everything that is proposed (approved or not).

Exactly! One thing that seems to crop up over and over in these forums is hostility to the heritage crowd and a blaming of Pacey and his crew for the lack of development downtown. They no doubt played a part in delaying projects and possibly derailing a few, but they're just an easy target. The reality is council has said no on only a few rare occassions. Nothing has been built Downtown in nearly 20 years because it was overbuilt and then the recession and growth of the burbs knocked all the profit out of the market for new office. If the market could support it, International Place would have proceeded long ago. The fact that it hasn't tells the story, there just hasn't been the demand in Downtown Halifax to support building new office developments. The reports I read at work indicate that rental rates have only know recovered to what they were before 1989. What we should really do is rethink what Downtown Halifax should be. Do we really need a largely office CBD? If International Place or Nova Centre were to go ahead, it would be nice to see the Roy, Discovery Centre, UG or Salters become more residential. Halifax's future might be more in the European style; office out on the edge with a dense, but mixed city centre.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by spaustin

Exactly! One thing that seems to crop up over and over in these forums is hostility to the heritage crowd and a blaming of Pacey and his crew for the lack of development downtown. They no doubt played a part in delaying projects and possibly derailing a few, but they're just an easy target. The reality is council has said no on only a few rare occassions. Nothing has been built Downtown in nearly 20 years because it was overbuilt and then the recession and growth of the burbs knocked all the profit out of the market for new office. If the market could support it, International Place would have proceeded long ago. The fact that it hasn't tells the story, there just hasn't been the demand in Downtown Halifax to support building new office developments. The reports I read at work indicate that rental rates have only know recovered to what they were before 1989. What we should really do is rethink what Downtown Halifax should be. Do we really need a largely office CBD? If International Place or Nova Centre were to go ahead, it would be nice to see the Roy, Discovery Centre, UG or Salters become more residential. Halifax's future might be more in the European style; office out on the edge with a dense, but mixed city centre.

Having more office space in the suburbs and Dartmouth would help to even out the rush hour traffic since more people from the peninsula will travel to the suburbs instead of downtown. Also more people in the suburbs won't have to travel downtown but can stay in the suburbs to go to work. For example, in Chicago the rush hour traffic has shifted so it goes in both directions during rush hour traffic instead of almost all going downtown.

The International Place could be a mix of office/hotel and residential. The Roy development could also be residential. There are already plans for the Discovery Centre, UG and Salters to be residential. There is also the Alexander tower that I think has been approved as a scaled down version (21 storeys?). If all this residential goes ahead in the downtown core then the downtown will also be able to support more retail space.

Having the new convention centre in the downtown core will bring visitors to the downtown where most of the restaurants and hotel rooms are. So it is probably best for the convention centre to go ahead first instead of IP

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by spaustin

Exactly! One thing that seems to crop up over and over in these forums is hostility to the heritage crowd and a blaming of Pacey and his crew for the lack of development downtown. They no doubt played a part in delaying projects and possibly derailing a few, but they're just an easy target. The reality is council has said no on only a few rare occassions. Nothing has been built Downtown in nearly 20 years because it was overbuilt and then the recession and growth of the burbs knocked all the profit out of the market for new office. If the market could support it, International Place would have proceeded long ago. The fact that it hasn't tells the story, there just hasn't been the demand in Downtown Halifax to support building new office developments. The reports I read at work indicate that rental rates have only know recovered to what they were before 1989. What we should really do is rethink what Downtown Halifax should be. Do we really need a largely office CBD? If International Place or Nova Centre were to go ahead, it would be nice to see the Roy, Discovery Centre, UG or Salters become more residential. Halifax's future might be more in the European style; office out on the edge with a dense, but mixed city centre.

Well said. While the arguments on the part of the Heritage trust are overly simplistic and often counter-productive, the fact is that there are at least some sound arguments for it not to proceed using the financial framework proposed. And on top of that, its current programming is not as complementary to the surrounding streets as many seem to think. There are other very reasonable places to put this - and still on the edge of the downtown core - that can offer much more to those who actually live in the city, while offering a new, well-placed venue for those visiting for conventions.

I also think that both location and design must be more than afterthoughts in approving large scale urban projects that are capable of having long-term and far-reaching benefits and consequences on a city. While things seem to take forever to happen in this city, when things do go ahead, they often seem like impulse moves with little thought given to the possible future evolution of the city. While we can't predict anything, we can sure do better at developing and planning in a manner that attempts to structure and guide future development, resulting in potential savings in the long-term for the city.