[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[sdm]

Originally Posted by haligonia

It's very sad that minorities like this are holding Halifax back from what it could be. I understand that they want to protect the city's heritage - and so do I - but the CH building was definatly not worth saving, and I don't think tourists will mind if they don't have a perfectly unobstructed view of the harbour from the citadel. If they keep opposing developments like this, the downtown will eventually become lifeless, and without activity, their precious heritage buidings will soon become rundown, and then we have a downtown full of dead heritage building and gigantic holes. If they are so pro heritage and anti development, they can hop the train to Quebec City. Plenty of heritage and a ban on highrise development.

I agree, the hertiage trust is barking up the wrong tree when it comes to developments of tall buildings. They shoudl worry about getting incentives for the owners of existing heritage assets, instead of blocking new developments.

However, as much as i disapprove of their efforts in previous projects, i have to agree with them on this in that if the business for a new trade centre is there, then let those who are promoting it to show the facts.

As previously stated, i will support it if the facts are true, but build it and they will come attitude is dangerous game to play with public money, especially when the public money is needed for many things besides this project.

I don't believe one minute that this project will save downtown, i actually think if the site was residential/retail/office use that it would have a greater sustain effect on the downtown.

[halifaxboyns]

I want to make a couple comments about this project - I preface this by saying I don't live in Halifax, but I do planning work in Alberta. This is going to be long; so get comfy!

HbD provides policy; which is now council approved. It's a bonusing structure through zoning - so if this goes ahead; the bonusing wouldn't apply and the 8 storey limit would be the max height.

I've had a chance to look over the 'save the view' website and facebook group - sad to see some faces in there which I thought were for progress. Guess I was wrong.

That being said, their massing models that they have on their website are wrong - they assume that grade at the Nova Site is the same as Brunswick - it's not; grade slopes down. The building design is responsive to approved viewplanes and from my estimates of the elevations of the max height of the ramparts and the building height - they are well under the rampart heights for the smaller building and close, but under on the taller. As for design, there are a few elements i'd change, but that's my own thoughts.

When I looked at Save the view - they have statistics about people being for the view - but there is nothing to say how that data was collected? If you are going to say the convention business is dying - prove it; just as I would ask that group - prove your statistics.

Also - they talk about saving the view from the road; but the viewplane rules are about from the ramparts and certain points on the road - not the whole road. You can't have it both ways! The original legislation was about having realistic points where the view would be preserved, while allowing development in the areas where the rules didn't affect property.

I'd add that while the convention centre component might be sketchy in terms of data to support it; there is typically good hotel occupation rates in Halifax during busy summer seasons. This of course depends on the state of the economy and what's going on; so varies year to year - but if a hotel is included, then I'm sure that the recovering of the cost would be quicker than if it was just a conference centre alone. I suspect that if Halifax has been religated to 'b' level convention status; that if this is built it could move up to 'a' level and still get 'b' level ones too. Considering that air access to Halifax seems to be improving (just added US airways to Philly) - the more flights in, the better.

Finally - my comment would be that there are a lot of opinions of support on here and I saw that there was a group that was pro-development for downtown talked about. So to members of that group - I'd highly suggest that you organize your own press conference to talk about this issue as well. But I'd caution you by saying - be prepared for the questions. Come with facts, backed up with evidence and put yourside out there. Get people talking about this...that's what this issue needs!

[halifaxboyns]

Whoops - I should read before I post. I want to correct my statement about the bonusing through zoning. If the conference centre goes ahead, the bonusing WOULD apply. If it doesn't, then the regular zoning restrictions of 8 stories would apply. Whoops!

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I've had a chance to look over the 'save the view' website and facebook group - sad to see some faces in there which I thought were for progress. Guess I was wrong.

Yes, this is sad. Especially, since one is a councillor with inside information on the progress and is the councillor for this district. I hope that that councillor's opinion will be swayed by the opinions of all Haligonians and not just a few. Heritage is important but a view from the citadel is not. I really look forward to future generations of Haligonians who have a more progressive attitude.

PS: The petition in favour of the convention centre has a lot more signatures than the one against. I hope that this information can be forwarded to the right people. I am happy to see Mayor Kelly supports this project, and I feel that he wants the city to move forward.

PRO: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/supp...tion-centre-construction/signatures.html
ANTI: http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?ourview&1

[Empire]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

That being said, their massing models that they have on their website are wrong - they assume that grade at the Nova Site is the same as Brunswick - it's not; grade slopes down. The building design is responsive to approved viewplanes and from my estimates of the elevations of the max height of the ramparts and the building height ---------------- I'd highly suggest that you organize your own press Get people talking about this...that's what this issue needs!

Their MMMS - 'mickey mouse massing sketch' is fudged or just wrong and they don't know it or it is an intentional slip. The hotel on Argyle id 18fl the office building on Grafton St. is 14fl. When the grade is accounted for the two buildings would have a similar roof height sbove sea level. The 14fl. office building may appear a bit taller from the citadel because it would be closer but not as they have shown. I also suspect the width is fudged in their sketch to puroposely block Georges Island. You would think that they would have a real rendering done if they really believed their own MMMS results.

[halifaxboyns]

I was quite happy to sign the petition in favour - whether my name will be counted is another matter (since I'm in Calgary).

As to that massing model - it amazes me to what lengths these people will go to make people get upset.

I'd love to ask them why they want to save a view to an oil refinery? Plus, what is there really to see on George's island???

[someone123]

As others have pointed out, the camera position for that Save the View photo is not the same as the rampart viewpoint that is preserved by the view planes. The photo was deliberately taken partway down the hill and farther north so that the buildings appear larger and block George's Island. The Nova Centre buildings will not be in the view planes. To my knowledge, nothing proposed in the last ten years has been.

Much of the rest of their site is just wrong and/or irrelevant:

We are not going to have a green-collar economy if there is not a single choice for sustainability that the developers will be forced to take. In the new plan there is no increased green space or parks; no green building codes; no green energy use; and no sustainable transportation. Where will our kids play?

What a joke.

[Keith P.]

The comments on the anti petition site are really a lot of rubbish for the most part. A good number of them are the usual NDP rhetoric opposing P3 projects, etc. Another bunch seem to think that tourists come here to stand on Citadel Hill and gaze slack-jawed at the oil refinery. And then you have the usual bunch of academics, who really ought to know better, who seem to think that their cushy publicly-funded jobs can exist with downtown being grassed over and devoid of commercial activity. It really is quite sad to see the disconnect between what these people think and economic reality.

[alps]

Where will our kids play?

How about Citadel Hill, not 50 metres away? No "sustainable transportation"? Yeah, what's more sustainable and less car-dependent than building it out behind Dartmouth Crossing instead?

Just the usual silly obstructionist misinformation typical of this camp...shame it actually carries some sway in this city, although I think more people are getting sick of it.

[David1gray]

completely agree. i mean come on, are these people really that anti-development? this is getting ridiculous

p.s. i also signed the petition. signature 760 i believe.

[fenwick16]

It is interesting to see the number of people who have moved to other parts of Canada who closely follow the Halifax thread and are interested in seeing the city move forward. Also, I have really started to see a more positive attitude coming from the residents of the Halifax area over the past 5-10 years. This is what prosperity can bring to the residents of Halifax; a sense of optimism for the future. It also means that people can raise families in the Halifax area and expect them to stay in the Halifax area when they have families of their own.

I don`t want to apply too much importance to this Nova Centre project, but I feel that if it proceeds it will indicate a step in the right direction. It also indicates that Rank Corporation has faith in the Halifax area economy.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

It is interesting to see the number of people who have moved to other parts of Canada who closely follow the Halifax thread and are interested in seeing the city move forward. Also, I have really started to see a more positive attitude coming from the residents of the Halifax area over the past 5-10 years. This is what prosperity can bring to the residents of Halifax; a sense of optimism for the future. It also means that people can raise families in the Halifax area and expect them to stay in the Halifax area when they have families of their own.

I don`t want to apply too much importance to this Nova Centre project, but I feel that if it proceeds it will indicate a step in the right direction. It also indicates that Rank Corporation has faith in the Halifax area economy.

I follow it mainly because I am a planner by profession. While I don't deal with the building aspect of it out here in Calgary - it's always been my home to come home and deal with some of the challenges there.

I don't think a city like Halifax needs to think of itself as being challenged by geography. There are lots of opportunities; if you are willing to take a risk and actually go for it.

There are a lot of groups like these out here in Calgary, where there are a lot of community associations. They were upset on rules for houses - it's a house!?

But I like to see people talk about this stuff - no matter what side they are on because I remember how there was hardly any interest in the regional plan when it was being done except from students (which I was at the time), buildings, UDI, developers and then special interest groups like the HT.

I was so amazed by what Calgary went through for it's Municipal Development Plan (same thing as a City wide plan) - Plan It calgary. It was hugely talked about and I attended the big summit that they had, where some people were given the chance to build the future. It was great, symposiums and everything. Something I'd love to see copied for HRM when the time comes again.

[fenwick16]

This is a positive comment from the pro-convention-centre article: http://thechronicleherald.ca/Business/1172960.html . It is good to see statistics.

rdexter wrote:
The 2008 Meeting Professionals International (MPI) Canadian Economic Impact study shows the meetings and conventions industry in Canada is worth $32 billion in direct effect. When indirect and induced effects are included, the number balloons to $71 billion. The study also showed the meetings industry is worth $500 billion globally. Winning or losing even a fraction of that business would have a massive impact on hotels, stores, transportation, tourism, jobs and the tax base of Nova Scotia. We have a world class airport. We have a world class port. We desperately need a world class convention centre. MPI members are involved in attracting, managing and supplying big events to the region. They say a new convention centre will bring prosperity to the region and help revitalize downtown Halifax. MPI has launched a petition supporting the development of a new convention centre. The petition is being circulated on-line. There has already been a strong early response in favour of the new convention centre. www.MPIAtlanticChapter.org

[sdm]

Originally Posted by someone123

As others have pointed out, the camera position for that Save the View photo is not the same as the rampart viewpoint that is preserved by the view planes. The photo was deliberately taken partway down the hill and farther north so that the buildings appear larger and block George's Island. The Nova Centre buildings will not be in the view planes. To my knowledge, nothing proposed in the last ten years has been.

Much of the rest of their site is just wrong and/or irrelevant:

We are not going to have a green-collar economy if there is not a single choice for sustainability that the developers will be forced to take. In the new plan there is no increased green space or parks; no green building codes; no green energy use; and no sustainable transportation. Where will our kids play?

What a joke.

Certainly is, because if they realized and read the RFP it indicated that the convention centre had to be LEED. Now is that possible, well thats another discussion.

I don't wish to place to much faith in this project, i just know what the developer and province are going through.

I know there is industry buzz stating that if this is a go(trade centre) buildings like international place, roy building, queens landing, and salters street are likely to be abandoned due to an over surplus of space and hotel rooms. Its highly possible this is the case as there is currently close to 2million square feet of office proposed for downtown. To give this a measure to compare to, that's more then total amount we currently have in the market for A class buildings (1801, Purdys, Founders Square, Summit Building)

[Empire]

Originally Posted by sdm

I know there is industry buzz stating that if this is a go(trade centre) buildings like international place, roy building, queens landing, and salters street are likely to be abandoned due to an over surplus of space and hotel rooms. Its highly possible this is the case as there is currently close to 2million square feet of office proposed for downtown. To give this a measure to compare to, that's more then total amount we currently have in the market for A class buildings (1801, Purdys, Founders Square, Summit Building)

If buildings like international place, roy building, queens landing, and salters street want to bail because someone is building a real building then let them. IP has been on the books for ten years and there is no sign development in the near future. These projects have been hijacking valuable land for far too long. It may take a development like the Trade Centre to skake out the tire kickers....

[sdm]

Originally Posted by Empire

If buildings like international place, roy building, queens landing, and salters street want to bail because someone is building a real building then let them. IP has been on the books for ten years and there is no sign development in the near future. These projects have been hijacking valuable land for far too long. It may take a development like the Trade Centre to skake out the tire kickers....

Its call supply and demand empire.

The trade centre would supply enough space for this market for at least 5-8 years on historical absorption rates. The latest rates show it will be longer.

Obviously you have no clue how developments and market demands work.

[someone123]

Absorption rates for the downtown are I think a little misleading because there has been so much read tape and so little good supply. A lot of the empty space is in older, smaller buildings and I could see some companies choose the downtown over the suburbs if there are a couple of new high-end buildings that are well-marketed. I don't believe in an "if you build it they will come" type attitude that expects every building to be filled, but I do believe that there is interplay between supply and demand.

I agree with Empire. No, there isn't demand for all of these, but we have a free market economy and risk and competition are a big part of it. There isn't a queue for new buildings. I will be happy with whatever developer starts actually building something major downtown, whether it's UG, IP, the convention centre, or the Salter site. Hopefully we can see two or three of those go forward over the next few years.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by someone123

Absorption rates for the downtown are I think a little misleading because there has been so much read tape and so little good supply. A lot of the empty space is in older, smaller buildings and I could see some companies choose the downtown over the suburbs if there are a couple of new high-end buildings that are well-marketed. I don't believe in an "if you build it they will come" type attitude that expects every building to be filled, but I do believe that there is interplay between supply and demand.

I agree with Empire. No, there isn't demand for all of these, but we have a free market economy and risk and competition are a big part of it. There isn't a queue for new buildings. I will be happy with whatever developer starts actually building something major downtown, whether it's UG, IP, the convention centre, or the Salter site. Hopefully we can see two or three of those go forward over the next few years.

Correct the out migration out of the core is still continuing, and will likely continue even with new higher quality product. Most companies within the Halifax market are not willing to pay the high rental costs of new developments, or even the existing structures in the CBD. Then there is always the limited parking to factor in.

You are correct, competition is competition, and one has to expect (as a developer) that other products will come online. It is after all as you say a free market economy. There is a difference between this development and others private developments however.

Just to illustrate the numbers, the historical average absorption rate for Halifax market (all nodes, downtown and sub's) is roughly 80,000 square feet per year. In the last two - two qtrs we've seen lots of absorption in the burb's, but are seeing negative within the CBD. Most of the absorption is companies already located in the market moving around (out migration).

Hopefully attitudes will change and the market will welcome new developments, but the reality is that we can't build everything that is proposed (approved or not).

[fenwick16]

The petition in favour of the convention centre has a lot more signatures than the one against. This provides some hope for the future. In the past, it would have been mostly the anti-development groups that would have been involved.

Although the numbers keep changing, at this point (Saturday, March 20, 9:22 Atlantic Time) the numbers are 811 for and 543 against.

FOR: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/supp...tion-centre-construction/signatures.html
AGAINST: http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?ourview&1[/QUOTE]

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The petition in favour of the convention centre has a lot more signatures than the one against. This provides some hope for the future. In the past, it would have been mostly the anti-development groups that would have been involved.

Although the numbers keep changing, at this point (Saturday, March 20, 9:22 Atlantic Time) the numbers are 811 for and 543 against.

FOR: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/supp...tion-centre-construction/signatures.html
AGAINST: http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?ourview&1

[/QUOTE]

Some of the against comments are funny