Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[lezard]

Originally Posted by deasine

To be honest, I don't understand the article. One moment, she talks about SkyTrain and it's expensive costs on Broadway, the next minute, she talks about LRT on the northshore. Okay... so what is it she is proposing? Drop SkyTrain for the Broadway Corridor to build LRT on the Northshore? Or drop the plans for a SkyTrain on the northshore to build LRT for the northshore (which never existed)?

I don't get it. It doesn't relate at all.

I think what she's getting at is the lack of balance in transit investment in the lower mainland, both in terms of geography and in terms of modes. Regardless of her bias, the article does indeed make sense. The high cost of Skytrain investment has drained funding from other modes and from areas away from those included in the current planning priorities.

She also addresses a very serious problem the Lower Mainland will be facing; how to continue funding these projects and still operate the rest of the regional network.

She's not advocating LRT, she's talking about regional rail on shared tracks with freight operators. Similar to S-Bahn and RER in France outside of the Paris system, or closer to home, the West Coast Express. Not LRT at all, really.

Whether it is feasible is another matter, but it is certainly an elegant concept.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by lezard

She also addresses a very serious problem the Lower Mainland will be facing; how to continue funding these projects and still operate the rest of the regional network.

I do feel the provincial government was wrong to stop Translink a few years ago from implementing a vehicle levy. I also feel as a region we need to seriously look at tolls. Also fuel taxes are not high enough yet. I realize that none of this will make some people happy. And people are going to be all why are you punishing people.

As for all the money being spent on Skytrain. As I stated above we are still playing catch up. We should have had both extensions done by now and should have been looking to build other kinds of lines in other areas. But we sat behind the 8-ball for way too long.

There was talk years ago of some kind of line on the North Shore. But it was shelved. One because of all the nimbys. Also 2 the north shore was never thought to be an area of high growth. Not counting the Lonsdale area of course.

[lezard]

Originally Posted by cabotp

I do feel the provincial government was wrong to stop Translink a few years ago from implementing a vehicle levy. I also feel as a region we need to seriously look at tolls. Also fuel taxes are not high enough yet. I realize that none of this will make some people happy. And people are going to be all why are you punishing people.

As for all the money being spent on Skytrain. As I stated above we are still playing catch up. We should have had both extensions done by now and should have been looking to build other kinds of lines in other areas. But we sat behind the 8-ball for way too long.

There was talk years ago of some kind of line on the North Shore. But it was shelved. One because of all the nimbys. Also 2 the north shore was never thought to be an area of high growth. Not counting the Lonsdale area of course.

Yes. The levy is probably long overdue. Soon we'll be playing catch up with the financing as well. Translink is dipping into its reserves to help cover the operating shortfall, the last I heard.

[Gordon]

Translink has the legislative ability to use a Transit Levy but the Mayors Council chose not to accept a plan that included a levy.

A larger slice of gas tax revenues would be nice but that would need to come from Ottawa.

I don't think property taxes are the right method of financing transit those revenues should be reserved for the various municipal governments to fund their services.

[Vonny]

Originally Posted by deasine

To be honest, I don't understand the article. One moment, she talks about SkyTrain and it's expensive costs on Broadway, the next minute, she talks about LRT on the northshore. Okay... so what is it she is proposing? Drop SkyTrain for the Broadway Corridor to build LRT on the Northshore? Or drop the plans for a SkyTrain on the northshore to build LRT for the northshore (which never existed)?

I don't get it. It doesn't relate at all.

It is a brain washed brain spreading the Zweisystem propaganda, that is the reason why this "opinion" is nothing more than an inarticulate parochial rant.

Originally Posted by lezard

I think what she's getting at is the lack of balance in transit investment in the lower mainland, both in terms of geography and in terms of modes. Regardless of her bias, the article does indeed make sense. The high cost of Skytrain investment has drained funding from other modes and from areas away from those included in the current planning priorities.

She also addresses a very serious problem the Lower Mainland will be facing; how to continue funding these projects and still operate the rest of the regional network.

She's not advocating LRT, she's talking about regional rail on shared tracks with freight operators. Similar to S-Bahn and RER in France outside of the Paris system, or closer to home, the West Coast Express. Not LRT at all, really.

Whether it is feasible is another matter, but it is certainly an elegant concept.

One should note, if you question the funding of transit projects, you should not look at what your neighbors get especially when it is a regional infrastructure, but look at the unbalance between road and transit funding...

Like Zwei, she is blind to the fact that ~5billions are poured in the Lower Mainland road system by the province (which is defacto spelling the obituary of any tram-train idea), when this government invest less than 400 millions in transit infrastructure, not even respecting the current mode splitting (see http://voony.wordpress.com/2009/09/28/gordons-transportation-legacy/ for some more detail)

[lezard]

Originally Posted by Vonny

It is a brain washed brain spreading the Zweisystem propaganda, that is the reason why this "opinion" is nothing more than an inarticulate parochial rant.





One should note, if you question the funding of transit projects, you should not look at what your neighbors get especially when it is a regional infrastructure, but look at the unbalance between road and transit funding...

Like Zwei, she is blind to the fact that ~5billions are poured in the Lower Mainland road system by the province (which is defacto spelling the obituary of any tram-train idea), when this government invest less than 400 millions in transit infrastructure, not even respecting the current mode splitting (see http://voony.wordpress.com/2009/09/28/gordons-transportation-legacy/ for some more detail)

She is critical of what she perceives as the geographical imbalance of Public Transit capital spending between Vancouver as opposed to periphery Metro communities such as those of the North Shore and the Valley.

She does it in a sufficiently coherent manner, and her bias doesn't appear to warp her argument to badly. Whether you agree with her is up to you. Not every one you disagree with is ranting.

I believe the 5b number is the total spent on heavy infrastructure in the Lower Mainland by the three levels of Gov't. This includes 1.4b for the Evergreen Line, not 400M as you state.

North Shore Taxpayers are perfectly entitled to be critical of Government spending that appears to overwhelmingly favour one area to the detriment of their own. So, yes, you do look at your neighbouring taxpayers and the deal they are getting.

Now, what part of her "rant" is zweisystem propaganda?

[Vonny]

No Lezard: $5 Billion in road infrastructure is by the province Only:
province contributes 100% of road infrastructure cost here (not asking for other level of gvt contribution), when it contributes only a fraction of transit cost! (namely 400million of a 1.4 Billion bill for Evergreen line)

What the rant say is that the Evergreen line is "vancouver centric" (sic),
and that "Translink is broke because of the Skytrain":
that is typical Zweisystem propaganda, with absolutely no backing as i have stated here http://voony.wordpress.com/2009/10/09/an-example-of-fals-syllogism/

It is parochial, when you explain that an infrastructure not built in your backyard is not servicing you...

It is exactly like to say investments in YVR serve only Richmond interest!
It is exactly like to deny economic impact of YVR on the NorthSHore, and it is also what she said with canada Line connecting with the Seabus (and connecting NorthShore with the airport in a fast and reliable manner)...what she also say with the Seabus which has cost more than peanuts...

I believe that every word of her paper is sweating populism and Zweisystem propaganda (which go hand in hand)

[lezard]

My understanding was that the Feds were contributing a sizable amount of funding for infrastructure in BC over the next few years.

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-eng.do?m=/index&nid=516209

Are they mistaken?

And these 5 billion would be spent province wide or only Lower Mainland?

[racc]

Originally Posted by lezard

She is critical of what she perceives as the geographical imbalance of Public Transit capital spending between Vancouver as opposed to periphery Metro communities such as those of the North Shore and the Valley.

She does it in a sufficiently coherent manner, and her bias doesn't appear to warp her argument to badly. Whether you agree with her is up to you. Not every one you disagree with is ranting.

I believe the 5b number is the total spent on heavy infrastructure in the Lower Mainland by the three levels of Gov't. This includes 1.4b for the Evergreen Line, not 400M as you state.

North Shore Taxpayers are perfectly entitled to be critical of Government spending that appears to overwhelmingly favour one area to the detriment of their own. So, yes, you do look at your neighbouring taxpayers and the deal they are getting.

The taxpayers in the valley are likely getting more than their fair share of transportation investments, the problem is that the majority of the investment is in roads and not transit.

To separate transit investment out of all transportation investment is just not being balanced. Most in the valley conveniently forget that TransLink just completed the $800 million Golden Ears Bridge, of which $160 million is being paid for by taxpayers and not tolls. As well, the financing and operating costs are being subsidies for several years until the usage increases enough for tolls to cover these costs. I believe the GEB accounted for around $30 million of TransLink's recent shortfall that was covered by the fare, gas tax and property tax increases.

Some people also conveniently forget that the region's first investment in rapid transit was to Surrey. People in Richmond had to wait 20 years while people in the Tri Cities will have had to wait at least 24 years.

There is the $3.1 billion Highway 1 expansion. As the project is $1.6 billion over budget, I expect taxpayers will have to subsidies that project for years. Then there is the $1 billion South Fraser Perimeter Road, the $200 million Pitt River Bridge, the Border Infrastructure Improvements through Surrey, the Fraser Highway and Pacific Highway widening and so on and so on.

Bottom line is I don't see how people think it is fair that billions get spent on highways in parts of the region and then they think that badly needed transit projects in other parts of the region should be delayed so they can even get more public money for transit projects. There definitely should be more transit all around the region including the valley but people in the valley and around the region need to be willing to pay their fair share instead of trying to fight other parts of the region.

Regarding the North Shore, the people there did not want growth concentrated in their communities. As the goal of transportation investments is to shape growth, the priorities for transit investments are other communities that are willing to accept more growth.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by lezard

She is critical of what she perceives as the geographical imbalance of Public Transit capital spending between Vancouver as opposed to periphery Metro communities such as those of the North Shore and the Valley.

North Shore Taxpayers are perfectly entitled to be critical of Government spending that appears to overwhelmingly favour one area to the detriment of their own. So, yes, you do look at your neighbouring taxpayers and the deal they are getting.

I would agree that most infrastructure built so fare has been limited almost enitrely to the burrard penninsula. But if anything the author neglects the fact that this has been the plan all along due to LRSP. If it seems that the north shore has had less hard infrastructure, that's because it's been the plan all along.

http://www.metrovancouver.org/about/publications/Publications/LRSP.pdf (page 23)

The LRSP has its roots in the 1960s, and has actually been fleshed out for the past ~ 20 years. To their credit, most of metro vancouver has followed this with some exceptions (eg riverport in richmond). IMO this is land planning in action. We know where the tranist corridors are - plan the land use and zoning, get the b-line buses up and running and plan for rail infrastructure down the road.

The writer is throwing all of this planning of the past 20-40 years to the wind by asking for more rail infrastructure to the north shore, an area marked for less growth than other areas. More worryingly, she is flaming regionalism and jeopardizing plans the evergreen, which has been planned for all this time. the article paints it much more than an LRT versus skytrain arguement, IMO without a lot of background or balance.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by lezard

My understanding was that the Feds were contributing a sizable amount of funding for infrastructure in BC over the next few years.

All of those federal stimulus projects are required to be finished by next March, so to say "next few years" is quite inaccurate.

I don't know what the North Shore residents want. They apparently want more transit while wanting zero densification. Do they want a tram/LRT connecting Lonsdale to Park Royal? A $billions train under Burrard Inlet? A fourth Seabus? Something else that I haven't heard of?

As for all of these proposals to run LRT along freight rail lines to Abbotsford/Chilliwack - is there enough available capacity on those rail lines for what is being proposed? The WCE is severely restricted by freight traffic on the north side of the Fraser; do any of these Rail-for-the-Valley proponents have info on whether the situation is any different south of the Fraser?

[lezard]

Originally Posted by Zassk

All of those federal stimulus projects are required to be finished by next March, so to say "next few years" is quite inaccurate.

I don't know what the North Shore residents want. They apparently want more transit while wanting zero densification. Do they want a tram/LRT connecting Lonsdale to Park Royal? A $billions train under Burrard Inlet? A fourth Seabus? Something else that I haven't heard of?

As for all of these proposals to run LRT along freight rail lines to Abbotsford/Chilliwack - is there enough available capacity on those rail lines for what is being proposed? The WCE is severely restricted by freight traffic on the north side of the Fraser; do any of these Rail-for-the-Valley proponents have info on whether the situation is any different south of the Fraser?

You're right, forgive me. I completely went overboard there. Two years, not few years.

And the bloody nerve of those North Shorers, wanting better transit in their own neighbourhood. Ptah! How parochial!

Whether there is enough capacity is open to debate, I don't know.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by lezard

You're right, forgive me. I completely went overboard there. Two years, not few years.

11 months?

I'm not trying to be pedantic, but the reference you cited has no evidence of federal money after next February, and as far as I know, there will be belt-tightening after the stimulus runs out.

Originally Posted by lezard

And the bloody nerve of those North Shorers, wanting better transit in their own neighbourhood. Ptah! How parochial!

Ok, I'll bite, what specifically is wanted/needed for transit on the North Shore? Let's assume the funding to keep running 3 seabuses comes through.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by lezard

And the bloody nerve of those North Shorers, wanting better transit in their own neighbourhood.

No, this is about prioritizing limited infrastructure funds for established 40 year old land-use plans and not from 1 article in a local newspaper.

Originally Posted by lezard

Ptah! How parochial!

No, parochial is denying your local transit authority permission to expand their bus depot.

http://www.northvancouverpolitics.com/2006/06/north-vancouver-costco-bring-it-on.html

In February of this year, District of North Vancouver council rejected a TransLink bid to build a new North Shore bus depot on the same site after a dramatic reversal of earlier support for the project. Norgate residents had lobbied hard against the project, citing concerns about pollution and noise.

[lezard]

My bad, I didn't know this: "Funding is available for two years for projects that can be substantially completed by March 2011." meant February. But yes, to be pedantic, the projects would appear to end in the first or second quarter of 2011, but the funding is for fiscal years 2010 and 2011. Semantics mostly.

She is entitled to criticize the priorities just like any other tax payer. And by the way it is about this one article; my not agreeing with the general consensus that this women was certifiable seems to have rubbed you all the wrong way.

I don't necessarily agree with her position, but I don't feel the need to call people I don't agree with idiots, populists, or parochial.

Is it because she mentioned LRT? Ni, anyone?

[tybuilding]

As for all of these proposals to run LRT along freight rail lines to Abbotsford/Chilliwack - is there enough available capacity on those rail lines for what is being proposed? The WCE is severely restricted by freight traffic on the north side of the Fraser; do any of these Rail-for-the-Valley proponents have info on whether the situation is any different south of the Fraser?

Some parts the rail line is hardly used like the interurban line that BC Hydro still has passenger service rights to the line that runs from 232 st and HWY 1 to Abbotsford. Trains come on this stretch only 2x per day. Other stretches are busy as it joins up on the busier frieght routes such as through Langley.

I still can't see service to Chilliwack being fairly fast as it is a fairly windy route.

Personally I would rather see a rapid bus service East from King George Skytrain out to Langley, Aldergrove, Abbotsford, Chilliwack. Seems like it would be faster and hit up major population centres more like Aldergrove following Fraser Highway. The existing train route goes through more farm land and stays on the outside of areas. But I digress, better off in another discussion. http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa199/pgieselman/ReallyBigMap.jpg

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by lezard

She is entitled to criticize the priorities just like any other tax payer. And by the way it is about this one article; my not agreeing with the general consensus that this women was certifiable seems to have rubbed you all the wrong way.

I don't necessarily agree with her position, but I don't feel the need to call people I don't agree with idiots, populists, or parochial.

Is it because she mentioned LRT? Ni, anyone?

You are right. Thank you for highlighting the hypocrisy and injustice on this internet forum.

try to keep on letting us know if and when this happens in the future. It is a task that I am sure every forumer will appreciate

[lezard]

Am I right in thinking the greatest cost of Skytrain/grade-seperated LRT is the building of grade separation? I certainly don't dispute that grade separation is by far the superior solution in terms of speed and capacity. But is an expensive system.

I believe Skytrain/grade-seperated LRT is getting a substantial share of rail based transit funding in the province. I'm not surprised that some people believe, however mistaken they might be, that there may be cheaper but just as efficient solutions.

Much of the road investment is necessary in view of the aging infrastructure, so I don't know how much could have been spared to invest in public transit. But, given the funding shortfall for the Evergreen Line and the lack of information on where the funding for the UBC-Millenium Line is going to come from, I can see why some believe that the rest of the province is going to get the short end of the stick again.

We should make an effort to show some respect to those that disagree with the choice of priorities but pony up their taxes for it just like every other tax payer.

@Mezzanine
It's my pleasure to continue serving my online community in every way I can. I shall make it a special point to acquiesce to Mezzanine's wishes and pursue with redoubled ardour your hypocrisy and point it out to you at every turn.

Can't stand people who don't agree with you? And let you know they don't agree?

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by tybuilding

Some parts the rail line is hardly used like the interurban line that BC Hydro still has passenger service rights to the line that runs from 232 st and HWY 1 to Abbotsford. Trains come on this stretch only 2x per day. Other stretches are busy as it joins up on the busier frieght routes such as through Langley.

I still can't see service to Chilliwack being fairly fast as it is a fairly windy route.

Personally I would rather see a rapid bus service East from King George Skytrain out to Langley, Aldergrove, Abbotsford, Chilliwack. Seems like it would be faster and hit up major population centres more like Aldergrove following Fraser Highway. The existing train route goes through more farm land and stays on the outside of areas. But I digress, better off in another discussion. http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa199/pgieselman/ReallyBigMap.jpg

The primary problem are any of the river crossings. When is the last time CP or CN invested in constructing a new bridge? Honestly.

For us to ever have reliable commuter rail south of the Fraser we need to construct some new heavy rail bridges.

Also, for the record, I would rather see WCE or JR style heavy rail commuter lines accessing the Valley than LRT. Of course I would like these heavy rail lines have all day 2 way train schedules. At least once every hour each direction would be nice. And 1 late night train would also be nice.

Also for the record, much of the money spent on highways over the last 10 years also helps transit greatly as well, for many bus routes are using the upgrades.

For example, I see there are now buses using the Coast Meridian Overpass, now avoiding congestion.

The 701 and other bus routes that use the new Pitt River Bridge are no longer jammed up for 20+ minutes at a time as in the old counter flow. These buses are now much more reliable on their schedules.

Surrey, Langley, Maple Ridge and Pitt meadows are now connected by bus via the new Golden Ears Bridge.

Also, it will be nice when the #1 upgrades are finished when bus service will resume over the Port Mann and the bus only exits / on ramps are a nice touch as well.

So there is a silver lining in every cloud, unfortunately it is the nature of the beast, since transit projects only directly service commuters while road projects directly service transit commuters (buses), vehicle commuters, commercial vehicles, shipping, etc...

Of course the same could be said for building some new heavy rail bridges, but in all honesty, I really want any new heavy commuter trains to be built with their own lines, no more sharing with freight.

I live in Maple Ridge, and would love the WCE to run all day and to have its own dedicated rails, but I am also realistic and understand the nature of Greater Vancouver, and the fact is skytrain to the Tri-Cities and to UBC is currently our most important transit projects.

In fact the North Shore, with its close proximity to downtown, lower population / growth potential, harsh NIMBYism and access to Sea Bus, is one of the last areas I believe deserves a rail mega project.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by lezard

@Mezzanine
It's my pleasure to continue serving my online community in every way I can. I shall make it a special point to acquiesce to Mezzanine's wishes and pursue with redoubled ardour your hypocrisy and point it out to you at every turn.

Can't stand people who don't agree with you? And let you know they don't agree?

Sigh. In all fairness, I am not advancing the discussion by continuing this. The Dude abides.

It's all about karma.