Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

Sounds cool, but I don't think we'll see a link between the North Shore and Fraser Valley/Tri-Cities in our lifetimes. The Lonsdale Citizens Coalition, the Deep Cove Citizens Group, the Edgemont Good Neighbours Club, and the Mount Seymour Neighbourhood Activist Society will join forces to blockade everything from a bridge from Anmore to a three-storey high building.

All those bitchy old geezers will be dead by then

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by deasine

No new rolling stock?! No way. New trains must be purchased to maintain a high frequency, unless they do choose to run the shuttle service between Lougheed and Columbia which I vehemently oppose.

I'm interested to see how the P3 is integrated for the Evergreen Line and which project partners will be involved. I'm hoping to see this P3 project include potential developers for the station lands, such as the one for Coquitlam Central.

I thought I read somewhere. That when the Evergreen line is completed. The expo line will get all of the MKII trains and the Mil-Ever-Line will get the MKI trains.

I think they want to wait and see what the ridership is like on the Mil line once the Evergreen line is running.

Of course when the UBC extension is done they they will need to order more trains.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by nname

No, I think they're still looking for putting a yard somewhere on Barnet between Ioco and Johnson? At least that was the original LRT plan.

They're currently running 56 trains right now, and the current Break at CO plan requires 71 trains. So they'll have to buy new train - probably around 60-68 cars.

It was probably part of the LRT plan because of using LRT equipment that wouldn't be compatible with Bombardier M-Line/E-Line cars, so the LRT trains would need their own OMC somewhere on the line.

Once the decision was made to use Bombardier ALRT on Evergreen, that equipment can be fed from Edmonds. At 4 am, how many people care that a train has to make a few out-of-service moves from Edmonds to Lougheed to Douglas College before service starts?

They may also pre-position some previously cleaned trains overnight at Douglas College and Lougheed (on the 3rd track) just like they do on the tail tracks at Waterfront, VCC and King George so they can be quickly added as needed rather than having to run an out-of-service from Edmonds to a terminal before putting it in service.

That doesn't prevent the planners from using the area they were planning for the LRT OMC site as just a storage yard for Bombardier trains. The land can be built on now or it can be held for future yard construction.

If/when the Surrey Skytrain extensions happen, a storage yard may be built out there too.

[huenthar]

Anyone know if Translink has any serious thoughts about getting the cars from the Scarborough RT and refurbishing them to save a bit of money?

[Bureaucromancer]

Originally Posted by huenthar

Anyone know if Translink has any serious thoughts about getting the cars from the Scarborough RT and refurbishing them to save a bit of money?

Not a good idea; I haven't seen the condition of the trains in Vancouver for a few years, but ours are well and truly on their last legs. It would probably be just enough trains to get Evergreen up without any fleet crunch (we've got 28 cars total, and I think they are all operational for now), but I doubt it would save any significant money in the long run once the shorter life and refurb costs are considered.

It seems to me that by the time an order for Evergreen would need to be in place you should have a realistic timeline for Surrey and/or Broadway which could all then be integrated into a single order with appropriate delivery timings.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

All those bitchy old geezers will be dead by then

And replaced by twice as many new ones, no doubt.


As for Scarborough's trains, it would depend on how much refurbishing is needed. Remember, too, that these trains are configured to use a driver.

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by deasine

No new rolling stock?! No way. New trains must be purchased to maintain a high frequency, unless they do choose to run the shuttle service between Lougheed and Columbia which I vehemently oppose.

Why do you oppose such an idea?

[Millennium2002]

It'd take away capacity from elsewhere, which would cause overcrowding and slow things down.

[mr.x]

I agree. New additional cars need to be purchased for Evergreen. The recent new 48 car additions are quite needed to serve the ridership demand on the Expo Line.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by cabotp

I thought I read somewhere. That when the Evergreen line is completed. The expo line will get all of the MKII trains and the Mil-Ever-Line will get the MKI trains.

I think they want to wait and see what the ridership is like on the Mil line once the Evergreen line is running.

Of course when the UBC extension is done they they will need to order more trains.

No that's right, but you still need to purchase new trains so that the Expo Line can move all its MK Is onto the Evergreen Line.

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

Why do you oppose such an idea?

Stations there were originally transferless are now having to have to transfer at either Lougheed or Columbia. At Lougheed it's fine, but Colubmia isn't or was not designed to be a transfer station.

It does save on a lot more trains and makes timing much easier, but I at least want to see the Evergreen and Millennium Lines or Expo and Millennium Lines run interlined with each other.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

Not to play the devil's advocate but inflation will probably increase that cost to what it is now.

According to the Bank of Canada, $700m in 2002 is only $825m in 2010.

http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/rates/inflation_calc.html

Now, if that was a real number, or an "NDP Budget" number is the question. I have no doubt the Evergreen line, if built with the Millennium Line, would still be over $1B.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

It'd take away capacity from elsewhere, which would cause overcrowding and slow things down.

I agree. New additional cars need to be purchased for Evergreen. The recent new 48 car additions are quite needed to serve the ridership demand on the Expo Line.

Guys, you can't say the system is at capacity based on the events of the Olympics. Given a limitless pot of money, I'd love to have everything, but with the strain that Translink is under, lets assume that they could reduce their funding commitment to $200m for this line if they eliminate the new cars and required OMC. Take it. You can always build an OMC later.

[Zassk]

It is much cheaper to not interline. This is established by Translink's studies, and I don't think we're in the right financial situation to be extravagant with rolling stock. One of the two lines can service Columbia-to-Lougheed as a spur. You'll never have to transfer more than one time, but the most direct route might require 2 transfers.

It makes sense to put all of the MKII trains on Expo (capacity almost 600 per train), and put all of the MKI trains on Mill/Evergreen (capacity almost 500 per train). I bet Mill/Evergreen will only need 4-car MKI's for most of the day.

As far as the capacity of Expo Line's busiest segment (Comm-Broadway to Waterfront), I bet they could reduce the load on that segment by 30% just by extending Millennium up to Canada Line. It would probably be cheaper than lengthening every Expo station.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

According to the Bank of Canada, $700m in 2002 is only $825m in 2010.

Millennium Line budget came from 1999, so inflation brings us to $880m. Also, labour/material costs went up during the last building boom, and today's building code is more expensive, both of which drove Canada Line from $1.4B to $2.1B.

[twoNeurons]

Excellent posts by everyone.

If I may add... back of napkin calculations here:

Evergreen Line has 4 stations.
That's 25% of the Canada Line amount.
Canada Line uses 16 trains.
Approximately the same service on EG would be 4 trains.

I'm sure that if all the MKIs came to M-Line they could make another 4 trains by just taking apart the 6-car trains and running them all as 4s. That was we have the capacity and I doubt frequency would be affected much at all.

I'll let someone else do the real calculations.

[DKaz]

They could start out with 4-car trains every 10.8 minutes, and decrease Columbia-Lougheed frequency to 10.8 minutes = 12 cars required in total = $36 million.

To further save money, with these frequencies we really don't need to build out the third platform at Lougheed yet, although build the flyover to that track and commission to provide storage space.

Ultimately we'll see M-Line and Evergreen Line interlined, with combined 2.7 minute frequency and a built out 3rd platform. Evergreen Line will see 4-car trains every 5.4 minutes. It's taken 6+ years to see M-Line reach capacity (2-car trains @ 5.4 minutes) so 2-car trains @ 5.4 minutes for Evergreen Line until 2020 will be just fine.

[Zassk]

Bridgeport Station works without a third platform with only a little confusion (which could be solved by better signage). I don't really see the need for expensive flyovers or third platforms at Lougheed.

Assuming the end of interlining, I don't expect Lougheed will ever see greater train frequency than Bridgeport, given that Lougheed will be blessed with longer trains.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by DKaz

Ultimately we'll see M-Line and Evergreen Line interlined, with combined 2.7 minute frequency and a built out 3rd platform. Evergreen Line will see 4-car trains every 5.4 minutes. It's taken 6+ years to see M-Line reach capacity (2-car trains @ 5.4 minutes) so 2-car trains @ 5.4 minutes for Evergreen Line until 2020 will be just fine.

Yes... just run the lines with a few major 80m stations. More trains, and even more stations can be bought/built later if necessary.

How much would it cost to build a line from VCC to UBC, with only 2 stations? 1 at UBC and 1 at Cambie? Leave a bunch of giant holes or whatever for future stations. No rolling stock, no OMC, etc. It may sound crazy, but if you can have that line 10 years earlier, I think it's worth considering.

[officedweller]

Comments:

I have read that additional trainsets will be required to operate the Evergreen Line. HOWEVER, they were included in the general fleet expansion purchases of SkyTrain cars. If I recall correctly, the next few options to purchase cars have been delayed (or cancelled) due to the budget crunch. A train storage yard will be required to accommodate additional trainsets since Edmonds is at capacity (unless they go to extraordinary measures like storing trains on the guideway).

Why aren't vehicles part of the Evergreen Line project?

My guess would be that the P3 entity will NOT operate the line. BC Rapid Transit Co. (TransLink subsidiary) will operate the line as part of the overall SkyTrain network. The P3 entity will likely design, build, finance and maintain the Evergreen Line - but not operate it. Therefore, the trainsets would not fall within the scope of the contract with P3 entity.

As I had previously mentioned before - my guess is that the P3 structure will be similar to those seen for the Docklands Light Railway in London, UK - the P3 entity will receive payments based on track availability (building and maintaining the track and providing BCRTC with access to it for operation of the SkyTrain on it).

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Millennium Line budget came from 1999, so inflation brings us to $880m. Also, labour/material costs went up during the last building boom, and today's building code is more expensive, both of which drove Canada Line from $1.4B to $2.1B.

There is the Non Residential Construction Index which we use at my work and would be used in this case.

The index for 2009 = 154, 1999 = 90.1

Budget in 1999 of 700 million x 154/90.1 = 1.2 billion in 2009 $.

But it is better to do a bottoms-up estimate (if you have the information) and re-estimate the project instead of using the cost index. A parametric estimate using the Canada line cost and the Millennium line can also be done if new information is lacking. There would be now new information as some more engineering has been done and the building codes have changed.