Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[mr.x]

edit: woah...quadruple posts, not sure how that happened.

[GeeCee]

Originally Posted by CPE

As in we are gonna order more trains or they are just gonna put more into service?

The subject came up in the Metro Vancouver Transit thread. They won't order any new cars for Evergreen IIRC, just use existing rolling stock.

edit: x gettin in the way of my postin

[mr.x]

Expectations were significantly lowered during the Olympics, that's how Translink was able to carry up to 300,000 people a day on the Canada Line with sardine can trains and lineups. People simply won't accept this being their norm on a regular commute...nobody wants to be packed like that everyday nor would they want to be standing in lineups just to get into the platform (overzealous policies).

I was on the Canada Line yesterday at 5 pm...it was extremely packed. I didn't have my iPod with me, got bored and started counting people (all the heads I could see, plus all the seats). I counted about 150 people for the car I was in, and this was under False Creek.

Acceptable and COMFORTABLE capacities for the Canada Line:

14-trains: <90,000
16-trains: 90,0000-110,000
18-trains: 110,000-130,000
20-trains: 130,000-150,000

[SpongeG]

we like to whine a lot

otehr cities have much larger trains and platforms and still have crowds - should they design platforms and service so that people get one arms length of private space?

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

we like to whine a lot

otehr cities have much larger trains and platforms and still have crowds - should they design platforms and service so that people get one arms length of private space?

Other cities are able to run with that because commuters have no viable nor affordable alternative. At the end of the day, we're pandering to a North American way of thinking...we can slowly get people to think like Asians and Europeans. The car is king here, and you need to make transit (1) fast, (2) frequent, (3) comfortable (dare I say ambience? ), and (4) affordable...the advantage to using transit needs to be greater than the car. Of course, we can't make transit equivalent to a first class train coach (and nowhere near that) but a line has to be drawn somewhere if we do want people to switch to taking transit. I'm not saying there shouldn't be crowds, but what I've experienced on the Canada Line exceeds even taking the Hong Kong MTR during peak....and that perhaps has much to do with InTransitBC's retarded decision of having row seating and not properly fitting the aisles/standing areas with sufficient bars/handles to hold onto.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by mr.x

Other cities are able to run with that because commuters have no viable nor affordable alternative. At the end of the day, we're pandering to a North American way of thinking...we can slowly get people to think like Asians and Europeans. The car is king here, and you need to make transit (1) fast, (2) frequent, (3) comfortable (dare I say ambience? ), and (4) affordable...the advantage to using transit needs to be greater than the car. Of course, we can't make transit equivalent to a first class train coach (and nowhere near that) but a line has to be drawn somewhere if we do want people to switch to taking transit. I'm not saying there shouldn't be crowds, but what I've experienced on the Canada Line exceeds even taking the Hong Kong MTR during peak....and that perhaps has much to do with InTransitBC's retarded decision of having row seating and not properly fitting the aisles/standing areas with sufficient bars/handles to hold onto.

I'd say a big reason why the car is not as popular in Europe and Asia compared to North America. Has a lot to do with the fact that the price of fuel in those two regions is at least 2-3 times what it is here.

Basically the cost of using a car here is not expensive enough. I know all the people who use cars are now going to complain it already costs a lot and doesn't need to cost anymore. Well sorry but it needs to cost more to use a car.

I'd love to see a modest toll on every bridge, a congestion toll to enter the downtown core and the price of fuel (gas) around $2 - $2.50 per litre. But I realize I'm in the minority.

And for the tolls and those that have to drive for their job. Example a contractor. I'd be willing that if there vehicle is registered as a commercial vehicle then either they get a discount or maybe a free pass. But I only say willing as in I really wouldn't support this. It would just be a compromise.

[red-paladin]

Well, transit usage can only grow for several reasons:

1) No new roads will be built in Vancouver, Burnaby, New West, Richmond and Tri-cities.
2) The roads that are being built or expanded are catering to existing demand and trucking.
3) The entire area is continuing to increase density rapidly.
4) More rapid transit lines and streetcar are planned / considered.
5) People's attitude to transit have changed from considering it as 'something poor people use' to a key livability / sustainability factor that rich people now favor.
6) The tri-cities have been holding back on some projects waiting for the Skytrain to be built, and may experience a wave of development like was the case in Burnaby / New West. I believe the Evergreen line will beat the 2020 ridership expectations by 50% because of this. (Like the Canada Line already is).

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by cabotp

I'd say a big reason why the car is not as popular in Europe and Asia compared to North America. Has a lot to do with the fact that the price of fuel in those two regions is at least 2-3 times what it is here.

Basically the cost of using a car here is not expensive enough. I know all the people who use cars are now going to complain it already costs a lot and doesn't need to cost anymore. Well sorry but it needs to cost more to use a car.

I'd love to see a modest toll on every bridge, a congestion toll to enter the downtown core and the price of fuel (gas) around $2 - $2.50 per litre. But I realize I'm in the minority.

And for the tolls and those that have to drive for their job. Example a contractor. I'd be willing that if there vehicle is registered as a commercial vehicle then either they get a discount or maybe a free pass. But I only say willing as in I really wouldn't support this. It would just be a compromise.

Regardless, the comparative advantage of either has to buckle...whether it be driving becomes more expensive and time consuming or transit becoming cheaper, faster, and more comfortable or the more likely third option of both in moderation.

I know friends whose parents own cars in Hong Kong...they are expensive and a hassle to drive and own, so they take transit like most Hong Kongers do but if that comparative advantage were to buckle they would prefer driving any day.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by mr.x

Regardless, the comparative advantage of either has to buckle...whether it be driving become more expensive and time consuming or transit becoming cheaper, faster, and more comfortable or the more likely third option of both in moderation.

I know friends whose parents own cars in Hong Kong...they are expensive and a hassle to drive and own, so they take transit like most Hong Kongers do but if that comparative advantage were to buckle they would prefer driving any day.

I would agree. Which is why the cost of driving has to stay higher than the cost of using transit. Which at this point in time it is not.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by cabotp

I would agree. Which is why the cost of driving has to stay higher than the cost of using transit. Which at this point in time it is not.

But the government can make this happen at any minute. Which it why it was disappointing to see them take $800m from ICBC and not put it into something like Evergreen.

[deasine]

Well of course people won't like their commute if it's like the Olympic conditions on the Canada Line, but the Canada Line can handle 150 000 passengers per day with 20 trains running without having lines.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

But the government can make this happen at any minute. Which it why it was disappointing to see them take $800m from ICBC and not put it into something like Evergreen.

Well they are putting $302 Million. So in someways it is coming from that $800 Million. Just not in a direct way. Although I do understand what you are saying.

It would be nice if Translink had absolute control on all revenue in Metro Vancouver and the Provincial Government didn't have the authority to stop whatever revenue idea they brought up.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Well they are putting $302 Million. So in someways it is coming from that $800 Million. Just not in a direct way. Although I do understand what you are saying.

It would be nice if Translink had absolute control on all revenue in Metro Vancouver and the Provincial Government didn't have the authority to stop whatever revenue idea they brought up.

Well, not really, but only because they are not an elected board right now.

Trasolini and others are on CKNW discussing Evergreen right now.

The carbon tax should have gone directly to clean transportation programs. Transit in the lower mainland, hyrbid/electric/etc. rebates for areas outside public transit service areas.

[Zassk]

The carbon tax is revenue-neutral, so it can't be "put" toward anything.

[DKaz]

Transit isn't zero carbon let alone carbon reducing, not even Skytrain. It helps reduce carbon usage per person. A fully loaded Skytrain will have very low carbon usage per person, but a bus carrying only a couple of passengers will have higher carbon usage per person than an SOV.

The point of the carbon tax is to put it into programs that'll offset carbon emissions, buses, SeaBus, and West Coast Express included. Skytrain is exempt until the government decides that electricity needs a carbon tax as well.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Zassk

The carbon tax is revenue-neutral, so it can't be "put" toward anything.

In government-speech maybe. So's the HST, yet revenue from that is being put towards health care.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

In government-speech maybe. So's the HST, yet revenue from that is being put towards health care.

Well, no, the carbon tax is actually being paid out as credits to certain income brackets. The HST is a revenue stream.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Well they are putting $302 Million. So in someways it is coming from that $800 Million. Just not in a direct way. Although I do understand what you are saying.

It would be nice if Translink had absolute control on all revenue in Metro Vancouver and the Provincial Government didn't have the authority to stop whatever revenue idea they brought up.

I think you are mixing up $320 Million that has already been committed to Evergreen in previous budgets, versus the new $800 Million over the next few years that is being grabbed from ICBC in this budget. That new $800 Milllion is being laundered though 'general revenues' so it can be used to cover lower revenues from other sources (ie: lower Forestry tax revenues because those businesses are hurting).

It's too bad Gordo & Co. can't be up front and say "this ICBC grab is how we're getting drivers to pay for transit improvements", and explicitly add $800 Million to fund new transit capital projects.

You can 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 about over-paying for your insurance, or you could have a lower ICBC rates PLUS a new vehicle transit levy (based on the vehicles' gas mileage and annual distance traveled).

[GeeCee]

I'd much rather have the latter for clarity's sake.

[mr.x]

I have confidence that the Evergreen Line construction will begin a year...but I also have a feeling that there's going to be some absurd early opening because the project was "ahead of schedule" just like the Canada Line and this other project in the interior that opened 2-years ahead of schedule.

So yes, in the end we might still see a 2013 opening...especially if this is going to be a P3. The government will give the private contractor a deadline that they know for sure that they can meet. Relatively, the Evergreen is a small project...only a few stations need to be build, and most of it is either at-grade or elevated guideway. The bored tunnel segment would probably be done within a year or less if all goes well with the TBM.

And given our region's history of all three SkyTrain lines designed by SNC-Lavalin, they will most likely choose them again. (and SNC is involved in several new road and bridge projects and was also responsible for the Sea-to-Sky improvement)