Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[lezard]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

A missing piece of the Streetcar /Tram /LRT on Broadway puzzle is that the minor cross-streets would have to be blocked from making left-turns to or from Broadway. Major cross streets would need left-turn bays with advance-turn signals for vehicles leaving Broadway to prevent left-turning traffic from getting smacked by the driving-straight-through Streetcar /Tram /LRT.

A simple example: left-turn bays at Broadway / Oak so Broadway traffic can turn East-to-North or West-to-South. These left-turn bays are already there, but will have to be relocated further away from the Broadway centre line because the rail tracks will be using the two inside lanes exclusively. You can't have a train being blocked by someone waiting to make a left turn.

Same left-turn bays at Broadway / Cambie and Broadway / Main for East-to-North or West-to-South left-turning traffic.

All of the minor streets that cross Broadway (Laurel, Willow, Heather, Ash, Alberta, Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario) will have to be made right-turn only intersections because you can't have traffic making uncontrolled left turns in front of the trains when entering or leaving Broadway.

Some minor streets may have to be cut off from Broadway by building a coul-de-sac.

Yukon and Quebec may allow left turns onto Broadway, but left turns leaving Broadway may be disallowed.

Now repeat this for every intersection all the way west to UBC and east to Glen Dr (VCC) - some streets get cut off from Broadway with cul-de-sacs, some get right turn only restrictions and some get left-turn bays with advance lights.

Oh yes -- how do you herd pedestrians safely across the tracks at popular intersections like Willow and Heather (Vancouver General Hospital & related medical buildings are nearby). Does a sweet elderly lady with a walker get to push the crosswalk button and block the Streetcar /Tram /LRT so she can make it to her doctor's appointment on time?

Have you ever seen a functioning streetcar system? I have used two in the last few months, Geneva and Zurich. Both cities are famous for banning left turns as well as little old ladies and medical buildings.

Does the word "red-light" mean anything to you? Streetcars can be given priority over all other traffic, so the little old lady may have to wait till the streetcar passes the crosswalk she is waiting at; after that she can be given all the time in the world, or streetcar stops could be set just before the intersection, cross traffic is given the green light while the streetcar unloads, etc...

I apologise, I forgot whilst ranting , that Broadway is unique and no other street is like it. Genevans go to sleep dreaming of left turn traffic and the joy of having wide boulevards like Broadway.

Post scriptum. Before the flaming starts: I am certain streetcar will work on broadway but I don't think it will solve the east-west corridor rapid transit problem.

[Zassk]

It has always seemed to me that 4th Avenue is the logical place for an LRT or streetcar, while Broadway obviously needs to be connected to the regional system.

[lezard]

Originally Posted by Zassk

It has always seemed to me that 4th Avenue is the logical place for an LRT or streetcar, while Broadway obviously needs to be connected to the regional system.

The logical location for any transit investment should be where it is needed, where there is sufficient demand to justify the cost, not where it fits.

Someone here once suggested streetcar should run along the seawall rather than on Broadway because there it would fit and not interfere with left turns and what not.

How about somewhere between Saskatoon and Edmonton or Inuvik. Lots of room there. It boggles the mind.

The only reason grade separated LRT makes any sense on Broadway is because there is assuredly enough demand there.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by lezard

How about somewhere between Saskatoon and Edmonton or Inuvik. Lots of room there. It boggles the mind.

Originally Posted by lezard

Before the flaming starts: I am certain streetcar will work on broadway but I don't think it will solve the east-west corridor rapid transit problem.

You are going to be flamed and possibly banned not because you have different opinions, but because you are throwing insults left right and centre, and not adding to contructive discussion.

[lezard]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

You are going to be flamed and possibly banned not because you have different opinions, but because you are throwing insults left right and centre, and not adding to contructive discussion.

I fail to see where I was throwing insults around, nevertheless, as you feel offended, please accept my apologies.

If you want to find fault streetcar, it should be based on real experience with that mode of transportation (not personal, like mine, for that is anecdotal), ord on actual studies made of existing systems.

The reason that some are getting so much traction for streetcar on Broadway rather than a more adequate solution is because of the very weak and faulty arguments used here (Edit: by some) against streetcar.

[deasine]

Before jumping to conclusions, no one here really is against streetcar, but against streetcar if SkyTrain wasn't to be built... which is really the issue of debate now. It's either one technology or another, not both, and there is no need for both anyway.

[lezard]

Originally Posted by deasine

Before jumping to conclusions, no one here really is against streetcar, but against streetcar if SkyTrain wasn't to be built... which is really the issue of debate now. It's either one technology or another, not both, and there is no need for both anyway.

Not jumping to conclusions. I personally don't care whether you are for or against streetcars.

I understood the issue is not what get's built if Skytrain isn't chosen; but rather ensuring that some form of grade separated rapid transit is built.

I have to disagree with your statement that it is one or the other as far as technologies go. They are complementary, like all transit modes.

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I think by complete accident you summed up the entire situation perfectly..........

Haha, this "One magic cheep tram solution" really has become dumb and dumber....

Originally Posted by mrjauk

This guy sounds like one of the a-holes in Georgetown who have fought (successfully, I might add) to keep the metro out of their neighbourhood. It hasn't stopped crime in that part of DC either. My ex-girlfriend got mugged right on M street--equivalent to Robson Street.

Originally Posted by Kwik-E-Mart

Yup, some residents of the West Side believe they are the cream of the crop after all. Aren't they proud to be caretakers of the last bastion of civilization in Vancouver.

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

Let's just say it here. If COV gives way to NIMBYS and Zwei's group, I will officially declare the COV to be the dumbest gov't of any size in the whole world, one that's run and influenced by far-left loonie special interest groups. I mean, where the f**k are you going to build a separate OMC for streetcars first of all? There's simply NO LAND to build it. Second, where the f**k are you going to build the stations on Broadway, without sacrificing parking spots and traffic flow??? Third, do you really want commuters to transfer just because of the train technology????

MAN, I'M SERIOUSLY GETTING F*****G PISSED OFF WITH ZWEI AND CO. AND BARSTA!!! THE PROBLEMS WITH STREETCARS (NOT LRT) ON BROADWAY IS SO APPARENT, AND THEY CAN'T EVEN SEE IT???? ANYONE WHO GOES THERE TO LISTEN TO THEM AND COMING OUT BELIEVING THEM SHOULD AUTOMATICALLY LOSE 10-20 IQ POINTS FROM THE GET GO. READING AND LISTENING TO ZWEI AND CO. AND BARSTA IS LIKE LISTENING TO RUSH LIMBAUGH AND SEAN HANNITY ON FOX!!! THEY DISGUST ME.

And from now on, don't even call the Broadway rapid transit LRT an LRT. It's a freakin' streetcar. I'll officially call that a streetcar system from now on. I hope everyone here on the board does too.

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

I think given the geography and conditions of Broadway (esp in Kits and Fairview areas), a streetcar to UBC is just a gloried version of the 99B, while wasting over $1billion without any improvement. Now, that's a "bridge to nowhere".

Just a few examples of discourse here. In my defense, my language was certainly no worse than theirs. But please, don't hesitate to ban me, by all means.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by lezard

Not jumping to conclusions. I personally don't care whether you are for or against streetcars.

I understood the issue is not what get's built if Skytrain isn't chosen; but rather ensuring that some form of grade separated rapid transit is built.

I have to disagree with your statement that it is one or the other as far as technologies go. They are complementary, like all transit modes.

I would like to have streetcar and SkyTrain, but realistically, it's not going to happen, nor is needed. Want is different from need. And with our financial situation, only one will be built. The discussion is: Streetcar (which isn't considered in Provincial Study), Bus, SkyTrain, or LRT.

Originally Posted by lezard

Just a few examples of discourse here. In my defense, my language was certainly no worse than theirs. But please, don't hesitate to ban me, by all means.

Again, jumping to conclusions. If I'm addressing your post, it doesn't mean I'm sending out warnings or threatening to suspend anyone. But if you like me to ban you for whatever reason, we can discuss this via PM.

[Metro-One]

Yeah, the discussion at hand here is not whether we like tram / streetcars, because most of us here do, the discussion is that when it comes to mass transit, skytrain is the appropriate choice for the Broadway corridor.

There is a movement going on only to build street level LRT (essentially a street car) to act as both the local and mass transit option along Broadway. We believe this is a major mistake and that skytrain needs to be built first beneath Broadway before any surface level trams are built along the same route.

That is what this thread is about.

And by the time skytrain is completed, that will ave taken away the vast majority of the regional transit traffic from the surface buses, leaving them much more open for local use, and therefore the need for surface streetcar along Broadway after skytrain is built will be many many decades away.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by lezard

Just a few examples of discourse here. In my defense, my language was certainly no worse than theirs. But please, don't hesitate to ban me, by all means.

I'm no mod, i can't ban you. But IMO your comments are still not adding to the discussion. quoting other forumer's comments out of context doesn't advance your argument.

But it's just my opinion. Carry on then, we'll see what happens...

[tybuilding]

Yes we could have an LRT something like the C train in Calgary, but it would have to be in a tunnel or elevated. It doesn't fit well with ground stations.

Elevated could work but has obvious issues:

Besides the Nimby issue elevated would have some physical space trouble. The elevated skytrain station at Brentwood mall is 26m wide. It is supported on a single piers in the centre of the road. The narrower areas of Broadway in Vancouver is 26m building edge to building edge. Some north south streets would have to be closed for station access. It would be a tight squeeze but it is possible.

With elevated only 1 lane would be required for the concrete piers in the centre of the road. Depending on the spacing of the piers this does allow for left turn usage.

Parking would limited to one side of the street but would available 24 hrs a day, local trolley bus service would now go in the regular travel lanes much like the middle of the day.

Construction would close the middle 2 lanes for the foundations. There would also be 2 lane closures when the guideway is being lifted into place with the crane.

Of course as a rider I would prefer elevated!

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Zassk

It has always seemed to me that 4th Avenue is the logical place for an LRT or streetcar, while Broadway obviously needs to be connected to the regional system.

Could you enumerate why? I'd be interested.

[Prometheus]

Skytrain will not (and should not) be elevated west of Fraser Street.

[Kwik-E-Mart]

Exaggerating quotes from others such as mine, while failing to understand the essence of sarcasm, does not help in fostering constructive discussion and criticism.

I didn't make up the cream of the crop quote. In fact, it was mentioned by one Pam Sauder of the Arbutus Corridor Residents Association waaaay back in 2000. It would be wise if you research first before jumping to conclusions.

http://www.spec.bc.ca/about/downloads/SpectrumVol28_No_1.pdf

"We are the people that live in your neighbourhood. We are dentists, doctors, lawyers, professionals, CEOs of companies. We are the creme de la creme in Vancouver. We live in a very expensive neighbourhood and we're well educated and well informed. And that's what we intend to be." That’s what Arbutus resident Pamela Sauder told a packed Vancouver City Council chambers on July 10, 2000 that she and her well-heeled neighbours want no transit on the Arbutus Corridor.

Otherwise, I will not offer anymore responses given your deliberate tactics in getting your point through.

[Vonny]

Originally Posted by lezard

The logical location for any transit investment should be where it is needed, where there is sufficient demand to justify the cost, not where it fits.

Someone here once suggested streetcar should run along the seawall rather than on Broadway because there it would fit and not interfere with left turns and what not.

How about somewhere between Saskatoon and Edmonton or Inuvik. Lots of room there. It boggles the mind.

The only reason grade separated LRT makes any sense on Broadway is because there is assuredly enough demand there.

No, that is not the only reason, but one among other...


Since you mention Switzerland, let's talk about time.

You will have noticed that the Geneva's streetcars don't go farther than 5km out of the downtown center...

a ride to the end of the line at 20km/h will take 15mn, but most will ride it barely more than 2/3 of it, so average trip length on the Geneva streetcar is 10mn...
if it was a subway at 40km/h, trip length on the subway could be 5mn, but we will agree that trip could be longer due longer access time to the station...so time saving could be relatively marginal.

On Broadway, it is another story, B line is 14km length.
average trip is 7km, so half of the length.
so time difference between 2 transportation become pretty significant, 10 mn instead of 20mn...

and yes time matter, even in Geneva, and that is the reason why geneva streetcar lines are short, because if people want to travel further than 5km, they don't use a streetcar anymore, they use the Geneva's RER (train network)!

Geneva like any other good European city use streetcar for what they are designed for: local service. for regional service they tend to favor faster transportation mode.

[lezard]

Originally Posted by Kwik-E-Mart

Exaggerating quotes from others such as mine, while failing to understand the essence of sarcasm, does not help in fostering constructive discussion and criticism.

I didn't make up the cream of the crop quote. In fact, it was mentioned by one Pam Sauder of the Arbutus Corridor Residents Association waaaay back in 2000. It would be wise if you research first before jumping to conclusions.

http://www.spec.bc.ca/about/downloads/SpectrumVol28_No_1.pdf



Otherwise, I will not offer anymore responses given your deliberate tactics in getting your point through.

I hope my tactics are deliberate, I would hate for them to be accidental.

I exaggerated nothing. The quote is exactly as you yourself quoted it. I was simply trying to justify my belief that I had not been more offensive than anything else written here. You, I hope, do not believe that what you wrote was offensive, whether it was yours originally or someone else you quoted. So please accept my apologies for having mislead you.

That goes for all the posts I quoted, none of them were offensive. Which was the point I had wished to make, that mine were no more offensive than yours. Someone here called me out for throwing insults around, I want to know what was insulting in what I posted.

If some are referring to my reaction to Zassk, I now realize it might have been clarified that I agreed with his post. I was not aiming my sarcasm at him. I hope, Zassk you will accept my apologies.

As for jsbertram, I found his objections to be weak and posted on that. It may have been harshly formulated, but I do not believe it was insulting. I did not cast aspersions on his character. Please, jsbertram, accept my apologies.

To all those who were offended, I tender my sincerest apologies.

Anybody else that I have offended, please let yourself be known. I stand by what I post and take full responsibility for causing offense.

[lezard]

Originally Posted by Vonny

No, that is not the only reason, but one among other...


Since you mention Switzerland, let's talk about time.

You will have noticed that the Geneva's streetcars don't go farther than 5km out of the downtown center...

a ride to the end of the line at 20km/h will take 15mn, but most will ride it barely more than 2/3 of it, so average trip length on the Geneva streetcar is 10mn...
if it was a subway at 40km/h, trip length on the subway could be 5mn, but we will agree that trip could be longer due longer access time to the station...so time saving could be relatively marginal.

On Broadway, it is another story, B line is 14km length.
average trip is 7km, so half of the length.
so time difference between 2 transportation become pretty significant, 10 mn instead of 20mn...

and yes time matter, even in Geneva, and that is the reason why geneva streetcar line are short, because if people want to travel further than 5km, they don't use streetcar anymore, they use the Geneva's RER (train network)!

Geneva like any other good European city use streetcar for what they are designed for: local service. for regional service they tend to favor faster transportation mode.

I am going to have to ad a post scriptum to all my posts. Streetcar is not RAPID TRANSIT in my opinion, it is local transit. I agree with you all on this.

I did not engage in a debate over whether streetcar can replace B-line; I don't, myself believe it can. I merely commented on my belief that Broadway does not pose any greater technical challenges than any other street in the world running streetcars, such as those in Geneva.

[nname]

Check out this blog post for the analysis of St. Clair streetcar line in Toronto. For 3 of the 5 days tracked (26, 28, 29), there are major delay of an hour or more. And for the other time, the wait time is anywhere between 0 and 40 minutes, when the scheduled headway is less than 5 minutes!

Imagine a "LRT" on Broadway, can it do any better than this? If not, imagine what'll happen if we have a backbone system with this kind of reliability...

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by lezard

I am going to have to ad a post scriptum to all my posts. Streetcar is not RAPID TRANSIT in my opinion, it is local transit. I agree with you all on this.

I did not engage in a debate over whether streetcar can replace B-line; I don't, myself believe it can. I merely commented on my belief that Broadway does not pose any greater technical challenges than any other street in the world running streetcars, such as those in Geneva.

In other words because of the demand on Broadway the train line built has to be grade separated. Even still Broadway could still handle a street car type system, in fact most streets could depending on the grade. But that would be only after a skytrain type of system was built on Broadway.

[lezard]

Originally Posted by cabotp

In other words because of the demand on Broadway the train line built has to be grade separated. Even still Broadway could still handle a street car type system, in fact most streets could depending on the grade. But that would be only after a skytrain type of system was built on Broadway.

In other words, yes. I spoke to the fitness of Broadway for at grade LRT, not the fitness of at grade LRT for what Translink was proposing.

Just today, I read in a local weekly, someone was praising North American grid type street lay outs as opposed to the traditional streets and avenues Genevan Urban planners were confronted with.

L'Hebdo, N 4, 2010, "POLITIQUE/Urbanisme: Genève se rêve piétonnière"
http://www.hebdo.ch/geneve_se_reve_pietonniere_42792_.html