Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Kwik-E-Mart]

Originally Posted by racc

Check out this gem. Looks like we don't have to do much except encourage them to keep talking. Yikes.
http://www.westender.com/articles/entry/...d-transit-line-on-broadway/#comment-7421

Yup, some residents of the West Side believe they are the cream of the crop after all. Aren't they proud to be caretakers of the last bastion of civilization in Vancouver.

While we should be happy to see themselves implode, we should still get one person out to speak for our cause.

[mrjauk]

Originally Posted by racc

Check out this gem. Looks like we don't have to do much except encourage them to keep talking. Yikes.
http://www.westender.com/articles/entry/...d-transit-line-on-broadway/#comment-7421

This guy sounds like one of the a-holes in Georgetown who have fought (successfully, I might add) to keep the metro out of their neighbourhood. It hasn't stopped crime in that part of DC either. My ex-girlfriend got mugged right on M street--equivalent to Robson Street.

[mr.x]

Hopefully Translink maintains its upper lip and entertains these people before announcing SkyTrain. And yes, it has to be SkyTrain. I will give up on this city if it isn't.

[huenthar]

... I thought that person was being facetious and actually making fun of Mel Lehan. Anyone else read it that way? It's too over the top to be serious...

[squeezied]

^ lol some are quite hard to tell.. this one however... you either have to be really retarded or joking:

you skytrain dumbasses are stupid. skytrain is slow and it doesn’t do sh!t. lrt is fast and wont cause congestion along broadway.

broadway can go screw itself. go rail for the valley!!!
.Posted By: Zwei bud

another zwei bud or zwei friend

[Millennium2002]

or maybe someone renamed themselves...

i find it worrying that there's these groups out there with such large voices... if they keep this up they might derail truly beneficial transit plans and replace them with cheap, poor-quality infrastructure that will not even last us a decade.

I actually wonder also... would these people actually live beside a rail crossing if LRT runs through? That's a lot of buzzing noise that people will have to endure... and it's noise I'll probably try to avoid.

[BCPhil]

The thing is that Zwei's system he is promoting for Broadway is fictitious. There is no system matching his "specs" that I can find in the world. Here is what he says LRT on Broadway can be like:
1) Faster than Skytrain
2) More stations than Skytrain
3) More capacity than Skytrain
4) Less cost than Skytrain
5) Less construction disruption than Skytrain

You can't have all those in 1 system. 1st and most obvious is you can't have a sytem that runs on a street with a speed limit based on safety, AND have more stations than Skytrain per KM, and have it run faster. There is no way that is physically possible.

Yes, some LRT systems do have an average speed higher than Skytrain, but those systems have fewer stops per km AND have an isolated ROW.

But he goes on to point out the fast systems to bash Skytrain, the brings up systems with lots of stops (that are actually really slow) to bash Skytrain in a different department. You can't have both.

Yes, some LRT systems are very cheap, but they are built on existing ROW, they don't involve completely reorganizing an entire street. With LRT on Broadway, the entire road, from the Property line of the building on the North side to the property line on the South side, all of it, including sidewalks will have to be removed, preplanned, and rebuilt. Most LRT systems don't have to deal with the relocation of major underground utilities. Even if it is done in stages, that still makes Broadway a non-through road, thus useless to more than travel to local shops, and difficult to get to the other side.

Yes, it will probably be cheaper, but not significantly for what we are giving up. Broadway will be a mess for years (more so than if we built subway under 10th) and still cost us well over a billion for the whole deal. And for what? A system people will probably be angry at. No one says "Stupid Skytrain, it's in my way!"

Zwei just cherry picks the best features from multiple different LRT implementations and rolls them up into what he proposes Broadway could be like. But it is impossible. Sure he also makes up facts about the subsidies to Skytrain (newsflash, LRT in the USA is HEAVILY subsidized and few lines come close to covering half their operating cost, let alone installation price) and makes it sound like people are "forced" on Skytrain, or transferring from local feeder buses is bad (when infact that is the whole point of a regional rail system).

Some people are just captivated by the pie in the sky ideal LRT systems in urban cores, but as soon as you see it on paper and what it would actually be like with Cost, Operating, Ridership, travel time comparisons, most people (IE the majority) will call for what's needed. Not to mention just show some models of LRT ROWs taking up most of the space on a road with no parking, and I'm sure people will be asking for Subway. And just wait until new, amazing, developments start popping up on the Canada Line. The tune will shift to "why is Cambie so lucky?"

[roleypolinde]

This is why I can't see them settling on anything but skytrain for the rest of the millenium line. What might be a very smart tactic though is to build it in stages so we gain some of the advantages early while disrupting only parts of the route given how much more busier the corridor in general is.

I would love an extension even just to city hall, half the b-line empties out at that stop in front of London Drugs to go downtown or to richmond or anywhere in that area. It's going to be a major hub in the future.

Where they -should- LRT or streetcar is on routes that are overcrowded or have a ROW already laid out for them. Running one down arbutus makes tons of sense as does one along 41st ave between Joyce and UBC, giving south vancouver more viable rail options where Skytrain just doesn't make sense

[cabotp]

I actually agree with the idea of LRT with limited stops along 41st. I live at 41st and Knight and would seriously welcome something like that. So long has it was quicker in time than taking the bus is now.

The only problems I see about that idea is the hill at Joyce and Kingsway is way too steep for a train. Also do you widen the road at Kerrisdale and east of Victoria.

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by squeezied

^ lol some are quite hard to tell.. this one however... you either have to be really retarded or joking:



another zwei bud or zwei friend

Probably Zwei himself or one of his alternate personalities, unfortunetly they all seem to be similar.

[mrjauk]

Originally Posted by cabotp

I actually agree with the idea of LRT with limited stops along 41st. I live at 41st and Knight and would seriously welcome something like that. So long has it was quicker in time than taking the bus is now.

The only problems I see about that idea is the hill at Joyce and Kingsway is way too steep for a train. Also do you widen the road at Kerrisdale and east of Victoria.

You could make the line elevated from Joyce Station to Kingsway.

[trofirhen]

WHY is this "Zwei" character and his cronies getting to people? As I said before ... TUNE HIM OUT. He seems to be a lunatic, so don't dignify his rantings with a response.

[Millennium2002]

trofirhen, I do realize... it might seem a little bizarre to have to respond to comments that seem as illogical as the ones put out by zwei; but on the other hand, if many people put these rebuttal comments on the forums, then at least we can give readers some good evidence to compare to when they read zwei's somewhat misleading claims.

[mezzanine]

WRT Zwei, as I said before he is very effective with getting his message out. He is very prolific with getting his message out, using examples of his own personal anecdotes to highlight how skytrain is so evil and a harbringer of bankruptcy and doom to metro vancouver. He writes ++letters to the editor in local papers, and if you follow the local papers and blogosphere, he uses many pseudonyms and it becomes esy to pick out his work. Even translink officials have written back to local papers to respond to his conspiracy theory letters.

Still, i admire the chutzpah of guy that uses *hearsay emails that he received 15 years ago from long-retired transit officials* as hard evidence and is able to get other people to believe it also. (Gerald Fox, anyone?)

It is great how everyone is exchanging ideas here (the PTV zip file was great reading), but remember we are preaching to the choir - get out into the blogosphere, local newspaper, go to the open houses, and let's get some grassroots going. IMO if evergreen goes thru as skytrain (and there is some chance that it will still fail/stall), then it will be very hard for officals not to build broadway as skytrain. In my own limited way, I attended the broadway corridor open house and look forward to more that are planned. We still have to push for evergreen to start after the olympics and things may still fall into place. once UBC to the tricities are done with skytrain, then let's plan those LRT corridors.

And anybody know where I can get that skytrain lobby money that Zwei keeps talking about?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

trofirhen, I do realize... it might seem a little bizarre to have to respond to comments that seem as illogical as the ones put out by zwei; but on the other hand, if many people put these rebuttal comments on the forums, then at least we can give readers some good evidence to compare to when they read zwei's somewhat misleading claims.

Thanks Allan. That puts a new perspective on it for me

[jlousa]

Lots of good info in the following presentation. Definitely shows the need for skytrain and soon.

http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rt...UBCLinePrinciplesCouncilPresentation.pdf

[Alex Mackinnon]

So... I may have narrowed down who Zweisystem is a by a large margin.

There was a very zweiesque comments in the minutes of the Jan 18th consultation.

"But LRT or SkyTrain are Cadillac solutions. Implementing B-Line frequency for 84 and 43 should be done first. Downtown streetcar and Evergreen Line should be priorities! Also, Fraser Valley commuter train from Chilliwack to Pacific Central!"

It's in the comment response section.

And of coarse, the attendance sheet, also provided with said minutes.

PRESENT: (From the attendance sheets)

Nora Ayanian
Jingman Bahr, DVIC
Elizabeth Ballantyne, Vancouver City Planning Commission
Michelle Barile, Commercial Drive Business Society
Dennis Baxendale, Shaughnessy Heights Property Owners Association (SHPOA)
Jack Becker, VACC
Mathew Buchanan
John Boyle
Andrew Carne, UBC student (AMS Councillor, Engineering) (andcarne on here)
Maureen Charron
Yayen Chine
Timothy Chu, AMS (Vice President, External Affairs)
Tom Crean, Business Owner
Eric Doherty, Livable Region Coalition
Tome Durrie, Grandview Woodland Association
Jan Dwyner, Resident
Ron van der Eerden, Pacific Image Home Designs Ltd.
David Fleming, Kitsilano
Gerry Fuchs, Citizen (Pacific Spirit Park Society)
Sharen Fuchs, Citizen (Pacific Spirit Park Society)
Nell Gasiewicz
David Godin, Vancouver City Planning Commission
Jake Gossen, Hemmera Envirochem Ltd.
David Grigg
Robert Haines, Kitsilano Community Association
Ruth Hamilton, SHPOA
Maria Harris, Metro Vancouver
Alan Herbert, Vancouver City Planning Commission
Kari Hewett, Bicycle Advisory Committee
Helena Hill, UDI
Chris Van Hinger
Donna Dobo, WBBA
Dave Hood, BARSTA
Ned Jacobs, Neighbourhood for a Sustainable Vancouver
Rick Jelfs, Transport 2000 – BC
Shannon Kavanaugh
Sharman King, Book Warehouse/Downtown
Anton Kuipers, BARSTA
Mel Lehan, West Kitsilano Resident
Julia Lew
Alex Lougheed, UBC student (UBC AMS political hack)
Alexander MacKinnon, UBC
Bernie Magnan, Vancouver Board of Trade
McComb Marjanka, WISHS Co-Op Housing
Jeremy McElroy, UBC AMS
Ruth McLeod, WISHS Co-Op Housing
Geoff Meggs, Councillor, City of Vancouver
Paul Mendozy
Elizabeth Murphy, WPG Vision CLG
Neil Naiman
Mathew Naylor, AMS
Thorence Nichols, Pacific Spirit Park Society
Marguie Nordman, Upper Kitsilano Residents’ Association
Candace O’Connor, Homeowner/Individual
Harriet Permut, Real Estate Board of Greater Vancouver
Adam Policzer
Patrick Rault
Elizabeth Schultz
Randall Sharp
Stan Shawn, REBGU
Alan Simmons
Norman Smocia, GNBC
Bill Stott, West Broadway Business Association
Eileen Sullivan
Margaret Soulman, UBC
Heather Tremain
Wendy Turner
Rebecca Temmer, Resident
Petranella Vandervalk
Randall White
Mary Wong, AMS (Transit & U-Pass Commissioner)
Lynn Wood
Frances Zang-Gordon

ALSO PRESENT:

Michelle Babiuk, TransLink
Tracy Bains, UBC
Andrew Brooke, TransLink
Steve Brown, City of Vancouver
Jeff Busby, TransLink
Susan Campbell, Corporate Consulting, Recording Secretary
Andrew Curran, TransLink
Donna Day, TransLink
Jeff Deby, TransLink
Ian Druce, SDG
Richard Drudl, UBC
Elicia Elliott, TransLink
Ian Fisher, TransLink
John Forsdick, Context Research
Dan Freeman, TransLink
Doug Friesen, Context Research
Allan Jones, SDG
Lon Laclaire, City of Vancouver
Bonnie Ma, City of Vancouver
Kera McArthur, UBC
Debbie Parhar, Debbie Parhar Consulting
Randy Pecarski, City of Vancouver
Tamim Raad, TransLink
Kamala Rao, TransLink
Chris Robertson, City of Vancouver
Amelia Shaw, TransLink
Mike Shiffer, TransLink
Colleen Sondermann, TransLink
Ed Storm, Ministry of Transportation
Joe Stott, UBC
Margaret Wittgens, TransLink


Anyone know some of these peeps? It's kind of interesting to see who the players are in this game. Who knows, Zwei could be on there.

[mr.x]

UBC SkyTrain Group really needs a representative in these meetings...

[Alex Mackinnon]

I didn't think we're that big of a stakeholder stakeholder so I was repping UBC students. If anyone wants to show up at the next meeting though, that would certainly be doable.

[mr.x]

^ well, we do represent nearly 2,000 registered UBC SkyTrain Group Facebook members. :p