Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[WBC]

Originally Posted by s211

The percentage of downtown workers that bailed for the two weeks is likely larger than we might first think.

Chatting to several people in my industry that work downtown, and overhearing conversations at Bentall's fitness centre, I came to the conclusion that the higher one is up the corporate ladder, the more likely one bailed, and those are the cats more likely to drive than take transit.

Exactly right - We had only 1 of our 10 partners in the office during the games. And these are people whose parking is paid by the company.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by osirisboy

This is exactly what I have always thought. A lot of people will disagree with me but i think sometimes building a highway is actually a good thing. It would return hastings and 1st ave etc back to local streets as apposed to having them as major thoroughfares. I picture something like The D'carie in montreal, you dont notice it yet it is able to efficiently move traffic without clogging up local streets.

Of course this will never happen in vancouver.

I agree with you. Just like there is a wrong and a right way to build mass transit in areas (for example, at grade LRT down Broadway - AKA wrong - Vs. M-Line extension of skytrain below Broadway - AKA right) there is a wrong way and a right way of building high volume road arteries (highways & freeways)

For an example of how not to build we look at the United States (large, surface grade, sprawling freeways surrounding downtown cores with extremely wide medians and large loops) but for an example of how to build freeways the right way in cities we look at nations such as Japan and those in Europe. Here, one primarily finds tight freeways, often elevated or tunneled, with no space wasting medians & large looping ramps, that are built into the urban fabric.

The Vancouver viaducts are able to be built as such into Vancouver's urban fabric, through all of the means previously shown on this thread.

Again going to Japan, when you are in the heart of downtown Osaka one is amazed at how little surface traffic there is on their roads for a metro area of 18 million, allowing many pedestrian and bike only roads to exist.

One wonders how this is done until they look up and see elevated toll highways running through the city (along with grade separated rail).

That is when it clicks is all of the industrial, commercial, emergency and unwanted surface traffic that kills the life along an urban surface road is funneled away from the people onto these highways.

Again, anyone who believes that all freeways are bad only sees in black and white, and they are no different from the individual who believes that all mass transit is bad. It is just to bad we have the US so close to us displaying how not to build freeways instead of having a European or East Asain nation close to us showing how to build freeways right.

[cabotp]

· The meeting participants generally felt that First Avenue should no longer be required to carry so many cars and that an alternate connection to Highway 1 should be built on some other arterial street (or in the Grandview Cut).

· Close the First Avenue access to Highway 1.....this neighbourhood has endured the traffic too long. It should go to other arterials, like Hastings Street or the Grandview Cut.

· The participants generally agreed that First Avenue should no longer be required to carry so many cars and that an alternate connection to Highway 1 should be built on some other arterial street.

· The City's policy of "no more highways" should be revoked.... and a new roadway should be built in the Grandview Cut.

Revoking the policy of "no more highways" Would be the stupidest decision they city ever made. The fact that there is practically no highway/freeway in the City of Vancouver is what makes the city it is today. To change that policy would mean we are just going back to the North American standard which I do not want to see.

Also while I do understand what the people along 1st avenue are going through. It seems to me all they want to do is move the traffic away and let it become someone else's problem.

What needs to happen is find out from the people who drive along 1st avenue are coming from, where they are going and why they don't take transit.

[hollywoodnorth]

THE GEORGIA STREET VIADUCT IS NOW OPEN!

BIKE LANE CONSTRUCTION IS ONGOING ON THE DUNSMUIR VIADUCT....looks to be opening later today.

[Metro-One]

When will people realize on this forum that not every profession in the world can use transit?

Many contractors, whether they be in construction, gardening, or even professions such as media, need to drive.

Use me for an example. When I can use transit, I will (especially if it is a train) but on many days I need to go to 3 or 4 different locations in the same day, often that I have never been to before (that alone would become a time consuming challenge to take several new transit patterns every day), then add on the fact that I often carrying up to 3 cameras, 3 tripods,steady cams, cables, etc... with me. There is no way I can carry all that on transit!

Many of my friends are in the same boat, they range from contract gardeners, welders, electricians, health and safety managers, etc... all whom need to go to many different far flung places in same day and carry large loads of equipment with them. Again, if we are going downtown simply for fun, we will use transit, but more often we are working and need our equipment (and yes, often we need to access dowtown)

This does not even include delivery services (everything from the beer you drink to the shoes you buy downtown) or freight services, emergency services, buses, or even those who work shift hours, often having to commute before decent transit service is operating.

Also, some people have very busy lives where every minute saved counts. Only skytrain and WCE offer such services to compete with the car when it comes to time management, and even the most expansive system in the world still can not cover every inch of a city with such service.

In the most perfect world, there will still be people who need to drive, many of them.

I often feel that this forum contains many people who are simply white collar 9 to 5 workers or students going to university who are from white collar families and have no idea how all of the materials for their towers are delivered, how their local gardens are maintained, how their groceries make it to their shelves, or even how their local media is produced.

Again, I am not saying we need to build a freeway downtown, but a few more overpasses and better designed connection to the ducts would be welcomed, to properly funnel this necessary traffic off the local streets (making them more livable) and onto such structures (which we should not even be considering to tear down).

There is a wrong way to build freeways (look at America) and a right way to build road structures (look at Japan). And yes, the cities in Japan do contain many small 1 to 2 km long elevated structures (such as our ducts) simply to detour traffic away from pedestrian / cycling busy neighbourhoods (which the area under the ducts could easily become, for their is more than enough room in that area for condo, park and commercial development with them existing, it is only lazy planning and development that wants to tear them down).

Sigh, end rant.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Where would you fit the Millennium Line in this diagram? Are you suggesting we completely rebuild 4 km of 10-year-old SkyTrain guideway? IMO we have passed the time where it would be feasible to put a road down Grandview Cut, the decision to use the corridor for SkyTrain has put an end to that, and now we should only consider that corridor as potentially useful for commuter rail.

Even with the existing transportation infrastructure within the Grandview Cut corridor, there still appears to be ample ROW for a 3-lane EB free-flow corridor to Hwy 1 with a kink around the Commercial Dr. overpass, which does not preclude twinning the rail line through the cut.

Originally Posted by cabotp

What needs to happen is find out from the people who drive along 1st avenue are coming from, where they are going and why they don't take transit.

Pretty simple. The growing metro eastern region utilizes 1st Ave. to connect from Hwy 1 to the downtown core and other points westward.

[hollywoodnorth]

Originally Posted by hollywoodnorth

THE GEORGIA STREET VIADUCT IS NOW OPEN!

BIKE LANE CONSTRUCTION IS ONGOING ON THE DUNSMUIR VIADUCT....looks to be opening later today.

actually DUNSMUIR looks to be set to open tomorrow.......

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

When will people realize on this forum that not every profession in the world can use transit?

Many contractors, whether they be in construction, gardening, or even professions such as media, need to drive.

Use me for an example. When I can use transit, I will (especially if it is a train) but on many days I need to go to 3 or 4 different locations in the same day, often that I have never been to before (that alone would become a time consuming challenge to take several new transit patterns every day), then add on the fact that I often carrying up to 3 cameras, 3 tripods,steady cams, cables, etc... with me. There is no way I can carry all that on transit!

Many of my friends are in the same boat, they range from contract gardeners, welders, electricians, health and safety managers, etc... all whom need to go to many different far flung places in same day and carry large loads of equipment with them. Again, if we are going downtown simply for fun, we will use transit, but more often we are working and need our equipment (and yes, often we need to access dowtown)

This does not even include delivery services (everything from the beer you drink to the shoes you buy downtown) or freight services, emergency services, buses, or even those who work shift hours, often having to commute before decent transit service is operating.

Also, some people have very busy lives where every minute saved counts. Only skytrain and WCE offer such services to compete with the car when it comes to time management, and even the most expansive system in the world still can not cover every inch of a city with such service.

In the most perfect world, there will still be people who need to drive, many of them.

I often feel that this forum contains many people who are simply white collar 9 to 5 workers or students going to university who are from white collar families and have no idea how all of the materials for their towers are delivered, how their local gardens are maintained, how their groceries make it to their shelves, or even how their local media is produced.

Again, I am not saying we need to build a freeway downtown, but a few more overpasses and better designed connection to the ducts would be welcomed, to properly funnel this necessary traffic off the local streets (making them more livable) and onto such structures (which we should not even be considering to tear down).

There is a wrong way to build freeways (look at America) and a right way to build road structures (look at Japan). And yes, the cities in Japan do contain many small 1 to 2 km long elevated structures (such as our ducts) simply to detour traffic away from pedestrian / cycling busy neighbourhoods (which the area under the ducts could easily become, for their is more than enough room in that area for condo, park and commercial development with them existing, it is only lazy planning and development that wants to tear them down).

Sigh, end rant.

I understand what you are saying in regard to the fact that some people have to drive because of their job. I also do feel that a lot of people who do drive are only doing so because it probably is faster and cheaper for them.

Maybe what needs to happen is to have road congestion toll rings. That people have to pay as they drive towards the downtown core. I would also say that anyone who has a vehicle that is registered for commercial use would be exempt from such a toll.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Even with the existing transportation infrastructure within the Grandview Cut corridor, there still appears to be ample ROW for a 3-lane EB free-flow corridor to Hwy 1 with a kink around the Commercial Dr. overpass, which does not preclude twinning the rail line through the cut.



Pretty simple. The growing metro eastern region utilizes 1st Ave. to connect from Hwy 1 to the downtown core and other points westward.

Ok so would adding a park and ride at braid cause them to switch to skytrain. I realize that not everyone comes from the same area and goes to the same area. So there is no one size fits all solution. And some people are married to their cars. The thought of them separating would be the end of their life as they know it.

[tybuilding]

When I was in Brussels I thought this was a fantastic idea. They have numerous underpasses on thier inner ring road, very compact design. The main street dips under the crossing streets. Unfortuntely again they have the wide boulevard to work with.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=50.845625,4.368734&spn=0.00165,0.00339&t=h&z=18

You can see it better in Google Earth.

Lots of examples of layering in Brussels. Trains often go underground for short periods of time. There are subways all over and roads often dip under as well.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

When will people realize on this forum that not every profession in the world can use transit?

Of course, but our roads have enough capacity for people like you who must drive. Everyone else, who has a regular schedule and/or works at a single location, the 9-to-5'ers that you mentioned a little derisively, are all potential transit users that we should target. They represent the vast majority of the workforce. Very few of those people need to be in SOV's. We can change their habits.

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Of course, but our roads have enough capacity for people like you who must drive.

Yea, but now you have folks who suggest tearing down viaducts, shrinking already-existing route capacity, etc. If the current capacity is adequate for those who needs to drive vehicles, why does shrinking capacity while the total population increases (thusly more service-workers who need vehicles) make any sense?

Really, a census of everyone in the region should be done to figure out everyone's job, and what the average requirement is, to determine who needs or would otherwise be best served by a motor vehicle, and who could make use of transit. From there, figure out where every person goes during their workday, evenings off, weekends off, etc. And from there orientate transit development to serve the 9-5ers and recreational users, and orientate road and highway development for the service workers and bus transportation.

[s211]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

When will people realize on this forum that not every profession in the world can use transit?

<snip>
Also, some people have very busy lives where every minute saved counts. Only skytrain and WCE offer such services to compete with the car when it comes to time management, and even the most expansive system in the world still can not cover every inch of a city with such service.
<snip>
I often feel that this forum contains many people who are simply white collar 9 to 5 workers or students going to university who are from white collar families and have no idea how all of the materials for their towers are delivered, how their local gardens are maintained, how their groceries make it to their shelves, or even how their local media is produced.

Sigh, end rant.

I feel your pain, and your rant makes excellent points.

I think what you are alluding to is the "Richard Florida aura". There's a great article on the interweb about how all the people who get wet over his concepts are the same people he panders to.

It's a National Post article dated March 10, 2009 called "The problem with Richard Florida". In a nutshell:

"Richard Florida -- an American born scholar who now pontificates from a well-endowed perch at the University of Toronto -- may well be the world's most influential living urban theorist. But he should also be regarded as an expert on another subject: the art of becoming famous. His critically acclaimed theory about the rejuvenation of American cities is not only clever and original; by a wonderful coincidence, it also holds inherent appeal for the arty cultural gatekeepers who anoint public intellectuals."

It would be little stretch to say that planners are so enamoured with plans on paper that they never look up to see how the real world operates.

[AlexYVR]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

If the current capacity is adequate for those who needs to drive vehicles, why does shrinking capacity while the total population increases (thusly more service-workers who need vehicles) make any sense?

Because for the last few years in Vancouver proper, population has increased quite a bit while SOV use has been reduced. Not just in proportion to current number of residents/workers but in overall terms. It's a really cool statistic about downtown and the effects of density, I think. Tearing down the viaducts is simply removing (what will be in the next 5 to 10 years) excess capacity.

Say we turn one viaduct into a Vancouver Highline with Streetcar/LRT down the middle and tear the other down. We retain an emergency/ambulance ROW with the streetcar lane, which should alleviate some of MetroOne's (valid) issue with the removal of the viaducts. We regain some of the surface streets in the crosstown area and get a much more well-integrated transition between downtown, the stadiums, and the False Creek Flats area that we're all so eager to see developed. Spend the money the city earns on the land sale to refinish the street grid in that area, creating more access points and connections through the area.

Anything that is said now is said anecdotally which is our issue; HollywoodNorth was super excited to see what a clusterf*ck downtown access became with the viaducts closed, a few pages back here. "Just wait and see what they say then" was the sentiment, I believe. Turns out, not much did happen. There were crazy lineups during the Olympic games themselves and not much issue otherwise. This is a good sign for the integration of the viaduct traffic into surface streets/eventual retiring of the viaducts themselves.

On the other hand, MetroOne and HollywoodNorth do have a point - there are certain professions, and types of vehicles used by those professions, that will always need to be SOV/LOV. You really can't carry plywood on a Skytrain, and though I've brought a keg on the bus before, it's really not recommended for commercial use I just don't know that the surrounding streets won't be able to take the traffic.

What would be really great is if closing the viaducts pushed enough people out of their cars and into alternative transportation modes/walking (as did during the Olympics) that:

• Robson/Granville would have the critical mass of pedestrian capacity to keep those streets as (nearly) car-free
• Water street and Mainland would see a large increase in pedestrian/streetcar/Canada Line traffic to bolster the small businesses in the area
• The reduction in leisure/white collar traffic into Downtown (when combined with streetcar, improved bikelanes, improved transit service) would leave plenty of room on surface roads through the current viaduct area for commercial drivers to conduct business

Everyone would gain. Again, it's a combination of educated guessing and wishful thinking, but my guess is just as educated as yours I also agree with JLousa that this is a relatively low priority for the city, though it would be amazing to strike the death knell for even the POSSIBILITY of future highway expansion in Vancouver. That I will fight against tooth and nail (Jane and Jacobs) until this place is either a forest or a parking lot.

[racc]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

When will people realize on this forum that not every profession in the world can use transit?

Many contractors, whether they be in construction, gardening, or even professions such as media, need to drive.

Use me for an example. When I can use transit, I will (especially if it is a train) but on many days I need to go to 3 or 4 different locations in the same day, often that I have never been to before (that alone would become a time consuming challenge to take several new transit patterns every day), then add on the fact that I often carrying up to 3 cameras, 3 tripods,steady cams, cables, etc... with me. There is no way I can carry all that on transit!

Many of my friends are in the same boat, they range from contract gardeners, welders, electricians, health and safety managers, etc... all whom need to go to many different far flung places in same day and carry large loads of equipment with them. Again, if we are going downtown simply for fun, we will use transit, but more often we are working and need our equipment (and yes, often we need to access dowtown)

This does not even include delivery services (everything from the beer you drink to the shoes you buy downtown) or freight services, emergency services, buses, or even those who work shift hours, often having to commute before decent transit service is operating.

Also, some people have very busy lives where every minute saved counts. Only skytrain and WCE offer such services to compete with the car when it comes to time management, and even the most expansive system in the world still can not cover every inch of a city with such service.

In the most perfect world, there will still be people who need to drive, many of them.

I often feel that this forum contains many people who are simply white collar 9 to 5 workers or students going to university who are from white collar families and have no idea how all of the materials for their towers are delivered, how their local gardens are maintained, how their groceries make it to their shelves, or even how their local media is produced.

Again, I am not saying we need to build a freeway downtown, but a few more overpasses and better designed connection to the ducts would be welcomed, to properly funnel this necessary traffic off the local streets (making them more livable) and onto such structures (which we should not even be considering to tear down).

There is a wrong way to build freeways (look at America) and a right way to build road structures (look at Japan). And yes, the cities in Japan do contain many small 1 to 2 km long elevated structures (such as our ducts) simply to detour traffic away from pedestrian / cycling busy neighbourhoods (which the area under the ducts could easily become, for their is more than enough room in that area for condo, park and commercial development with them existing, it is only lazy planning and development that wants to tear them down).

Sigh, end rant.

This type of black and white thinking is really tiresome. No one has ever claimed that everyone can use transit. Just because a small portion of people can't use transit for one reason or another, that is no reason not to look at reducing excess road capacity. There are plenty of people who could use transit but don't just because they don't want to.

With a bit of creativity and a willingness to try something new, a lot of people who think they need to drive because they need tools or equipment can get around just fine. Check out:
http://www.bcbuildingtrades.org/pdf/TradeTalk/Winter%20TT%202009.pdf

Why spend million or even billions of dollars improving road connections when there is so much needed to be done to create a great transit system. Why forgo potentially tens of millions of dollars the city could earn or apply to parks, social housing or community facilities by allowing the land that the viaducts are on to be developed. For the fifth time, how about waiting to see what the city will propose before totally trashing the idea.

Sigh, end rant.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by racc

This type of black and white thinking is really tiresome. No one has ever claimed that everyone can use transit. Just because a small portion of people can't use transit for one reason or another, that is no reason not to look at reducing excess road capacity. There are plenty of people who could use transit but don't just because they don't want to.

With a bit of creativity and a willingness to try something new, a lot of people who think they need to drive because they need tools or equipment can get around just fine. Check out:
http://www.bcbuildingtrades.org/pdf/TradeTalk/Winter%20TT%202009.pdf

Why spend million or even billions of dollars improving road connections when there is so much needed to be done to create a great transit system. Why forgo potentially tens of millions of dollars the city could earn or apply to parks, social housing or community facilities by allowing the land that the viaducts are on to be developed. For the fifth time, how about waiting to see what the city will propose before totally trashing the idea.

Sigh, end rant.

I am sorry racc, but i think you are the last one to call anyone on here guilty of "Black and White" thinking.

Is there any highway project you support in our entire metro region?

Anyone on this forum knows that i am a huge supporter of skytrain expansions, increased WCE and new commuter rail developments, the introduction of the streetcar, pedestrian malls, etc...

But I also support some forms of highway development (again, proper non American style highway development) how does that make me a black and white thinker?

Let us look at your track record, you essentially want the viaducts gone, or at least no longer service cars, at all, you want no park and rides built along the skytrain network, etc...

If anyone is black and white it is you with your hate on vehicles.

Many on here have brought up good ideas, in fact I would even look into AlexYVR's interesting idea of keeping 1 duct, 1 lane each way and a tram line. At least there there is still a compromise and realization that there will still be demand to accommodate vehicles and it is best for all to take the commercial and emergency traffic off local neighbourhood streets, which the area around the ducts would become if many residential towers are built.

Also, it is much more than just a small percentage of people who work in industries that require them to drive, again not to mention delivery / freight traffic, heavy work vehicles, emergency vehicles and buses.

Honestly, if I had my way, there would a a direct link to downtown, primarily sub surface with some viaducts along its wester end, from the #1 to the where the ducts are now. It would be designed much like a Japanese highway, 4 lanes wide with a slim median (essentially only a concrete barrier) and would essentially service industrial and commercial areas. It would come with a hefty 5 to 10 dollar toll for non commercial vehicles, and would possibly be free for industrial vehicles. This way SOV drivers who could take transit (such as those that work 9 to 5 and do not need to carry materials) would not ant to pay upwards to 20 dollars a day to use it and would be inclined to use transit.

But at the same time it would take away all of the industrial and commercial traffic from such streets as first Ave and Hastings, allowing us to implement traffic calming measures along those streets, built more bike lanes and properly implement a streetcar network.

Also, it would help encourage business downtown because the few fat cats who still want to be SOV drivers still can to work, but they would likely only be the top of the top (a small percentage of commuters). There fore they would not be inclined to move their businesses out of the city core.

I know this idea makes you twist and turn, but it is not a black and white idea, for a black and white idea would be the following "lets build a surface 6 to 8 lane freeway directly to downtown with huge sprawling cloverleafs that is free for all commuters to use and completely encircles downtown"

But i know you will not be able to differentiate between the two.

Just like some people for some bizarre reason can not differentiate between at grade LRT down Broadway and underground skytrain as our needed mass transit along that route.

Essentially, keeping the viaducts, or at least one, allows us to retain decent vehicle capacity east/west into downtown, allowing us to easily reduce vehicle capacity along the surface roads, allowing the streetcar, more bike lanes, wider sidewalks all to be implemented seamlessly.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I am sorry rac, but i think you are the last one to call anyone on here guilty of "Black and White" thinking.

Is there any highway project you support in our entire metro region?

Anyone on this forum knows that i am a huge supporter of skytrain expansions, increased WCE and new commuter rail developments, the introduction of the streetcar, pedestrian malls, etc...

But I also support some forms of highway development (again, proper non American style highway development) how does that make me a black and white thinker?

Let us look at your track record, you essentially want the viaducts gone, or at least no longer service cars, at all, you want no park and rides built along the skytrain network, etc...

If anyone is black and white it is you with your hate on vehicles.

Many on here have brought up good ideas, in fact I would even look into AlexYVR's interesting idea of keeping 1 duct, 1 lane each way and a tram line. At least there there is still a compromise and realization that there will still be demand to accommodate vehicles and it is best for all to take the commercial and emergency traffic off local neighbourhood streets, which the area around the ducts would become if many residential towers are built.

Also, it is much more than just a small percentage of people who work in industries that require them to drive, again not to mention delivery / freight traffic, heavy work vehicles, emergency vehicles and buses.

Honestly, if I had my way, there would a a direct link to downtown, primarily sub surface with some viaducts along its wester end, from the #1 to the where the ducts are now. It would be designed much like a Japanese highway, 4 lanes wide with a slim median (essentially only a concrete barrier) and would essentially service industrial and commercial areas. It would come with a hefty 5 to 10 dollar toll for non commercial vehicles, and would possibly be free for industrial vehicles. This way SOV drivers who could take transit (such as those that work 9 to 5 and do not need to carry materials) would not ant to pay upwards to 20 dollars a day to use it and would be inclined to use transit.

But at the same time it would take away all of the industrial and commercial traffic from such streets as first Ave and Hastings, allowing us to implement traffic calming measures along those streets, built more bike lanes and properly implement a streetcar network.

Also, it would help encourage business downtown because the few fat cats who still want to be SOV drivers still can to work, but they would likely only be the top of the top (a small percentage of commuters). There fore they would not be inclined to move their businesses out of the city core.

I know this idea makes you twist and turn, but it is not a black and white idea, for a black and white idea would be the following "lets build a surface 6 to 8 lane freeway directly to downtown with huge sprawling cloverleafs that is free for all commuters to use and completely encircles downtown"

But i know you will not be able to differentiate between the two.

Just like some people for some bizarre reason can not differentiate between at grade LRT down Broadway and underground skytrain as our needed mass transit along that route.

I do understand what you are saying and in some ways I do support the idea of a viaduct style ring road that enables us to get commercial vehicles off the city streets.

But I do feel that one aspect that is lost when comparing this city to Asian and European cities. Is that we have no where near the metro rail infrastructure that they have. Until such a time I do feel the money should be spent on seriously expanding the skytrain system. And I'm not talking about just adding the Evergreen line and Broadway line. The need to have that line all the way out the maple ridge, all the way to langley and all the way to white rock. Plus a line along hastings. I'd say there also needs to be another east-west line along south vancouver. I realize this may never happen and is only a dream.

Like I said I'm not against what you propose. I just feel it is the wrong direction for funds at this point in time.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by cabotp

I do understand what you are saying and in some ways I do support the idea of a viaduct style ring road that enables us to get commercial vehicles off the city streets.

But I do feel that one aspect that is lost when comparing this city to Asian and European cities. Is that we have no where near the metro rail infrastructure that they have. Until such a time I do feel the money should be spent on seriously expanding the skytrain system. And I'm not talking about just adding the Evergreen line and Broadway line. The need to have that line all the way out the maple ridge, all the way to langley and all the way to white rock. Plus a line along hastings. I'd say there also needs to be another east-west line along south vancouver. I realize this may never happen and is only a dream.

Like I said I'm not against what you propose. I just feel it is the wrong direction for funds at this point in time.

This I respect and agree with.

But tearing down the viaducts to me seems like a waste of money that could be spent on the vancouver streetcar. And the viaducts could be used much more than they are now, therefore creating a better neighbourhood around them in the current.

Also, such a toll highway could possibly make money that could be spent on transit (but we will wait and see how the Golden Ears Bridge does).

[cabotp]

Oh I do agree that at this point in time we should not tear down the viaducts. The biggest reason being there is no skytrain line along hastings. That would need to be built first before even thinking of taking down the viaducts.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by AlexYVR

...Anything that is said now is said anecdotally which is our issue; HollywoodNorth was super excited to see what a clusterf*ck downtown access became with the viaducts closed, a few pages back here. "Just wait and see what they say then" was the sentiment, I believe. Turns out, not much did happen. There were crazy lineups during the Olympic games themselves and not much issue otherwise. This is a good sign for the integration of the viaduct traffic into surface streets/eventual retiring of the viaducts themselves ..

Wrong, you're making the mistake a lot of people warned against upthread:

The two weeks of the Olympics were not a typical period.

Lots of people took time off, cajoled the boss into letting them work from home etc. I'd be very curious to see how far those people advocating for tearing down the viaducts live from the downtown core. Being a single, urban male is not the majority demographic in Metro Vancouver.