Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[WBC]

Perhaps we should suspend the discussion (I mean mud flinging) and this thread until the plans come out. Otherwise, we are all rehashing the same thing over and over again.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by racc

If you bothered even doing just a bit of research, including reading previous posts or doing a quick Google, before posting, you would know the answer. It really is quite ridiculous that you don't even make the effort when it is really so easy with the Internet.

At the risk of boring the others on the forum with the obvious, the reason why the viaducts are being looked at now is because they are next to, in and around parcels of land that will be redeveloped soon both by Concord Pacific and due to the upgrade of BC Place. It makes sense to look at a comprehensive approach to the entire area before proceeding. By looking at the viaducts, the city could potentially gain tens of millions of benefits for the people of the city including social housing and parks while saving taxpayers money in the process. This is the financially prudent action for city council to do.

BC place isn't integrated into the Viaducts or obstructed by the viaducts at all. With or without the Viaducts, BC place would pretty much function just like it does now.

If they weren't there you would still have to climb up some stairs to get to the main level. And the BC Place is ready to go, it's going ahead ASAP, even if we start seriously looking at the Viaducts removal today, the first phase of the study won't be done until the renos on BC Place are finished.

In fact, it's easier to get to BC place with the Viaducts in place than without. You can walk out the lower exit of Stadium and across a rather unbusy Expo blvd and Griffiths Way to the stairs to BC place. Without the Viaducts you would need to cross what would become the busiest intersection (Georgia/Expo/Pacific) downtown west of Seymour.

But the city already owns much much more land around SEFC that sits barren. Developing the land next to Olympic Village will make the city much more money. Money can be made off building there, right away, and that money can be used to fund social housing. Why target functioning infrastructure for removal when we have empty lots under city ownership elsewhere?

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by WBC

Perhaps we should suspend the discussion (I mean mud flinging) and this thread until the plans come out. Otherwise, we are all rehashing the same thing over and over again.

It was Meggs who resurrected his pet waste of money in the media the other day

[cabotp]

In my opinion deciding to just tear down the viaducts based on what we have seen over the past two weeks would be fool hardy. I'm not saying it wouldn't be good or bad. Just we can't use the last two weeks as a measuring tool.

The biggest reason is that people were generally more patient for the simple fact that they knew it wouldn't be like this for ever.

Personally I feel that until there is a rapid transit line along Hastings. The viaducts should stay.

[racc]

Must admit, it was really great cycling over the car-free Viaducts today. Really great views of the city, mountains and False Creek. Maybe one should be kept as a linear park like the Highline in NYC.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by racc

Must admit, it was really great cycling over the car-free Viaducts today. Really great views of the city, mountains and False Creek. Maybe one should be kept as a linear park like the Highline in NYC.

Tear them down, tear them down!

[Metro-One]

Or we could keep one with 2 lanes of traffic (essentially for industrial, commercial, bus and emergency traffic), with proper noise barriers surrounding them, and have cycling/walking on the sides. We could even have vines growing up the sides of the noise barriers.

There are far many more creative ideas/solution with the ducts than the simple black and white thinking of "tear them down."

[hollywoodnorth]

they worked through out the day today to move the concrete barriers on the DUNSMUIR viaduct to the WEST side in preparation for the bike lane project.

[jlousa]

Did they use fossil fuel powered machines or organically fed wild horses to move the barricades?

Personally this (removing the viaducts) is so far down the list of items the city should be currently looking at. The city should work on the lowest fruit first before any mega items.

[Metro-One]

Also in response to what that councilor has been saying about the reduced traffic downtown and tearing down the viaducts, one does have to keep a few things in mind.

Many of the people coming downtown on transit were not doing so for work or school with a fixed schedual. Much of it was for a temporary fun time (as one witnesses during a fireworks night). That makes a huge difference. Many of the people I know who work downtown in the mining industry barely went to their offices during the 2 week olympic event (essentially, they avoided downtown). The Olympics were far from an average commuting day. That being said I do encourage more transit to be built in our city, but her findings are off center to say the least. Using her frame of experiment, one could also conclude the following:

During the Olympics cycling numbers were increased, despite the fact that several cycling routes were closed, so then I guess we do not need those cycling routes anymore.

During the last night of the Olympics buses were suspended from the downtown core, yet most people arrived by transit and created record crowds, so i guess we do not need those bus routes either, since most people decided to walk from the train stations.

The Cambie bridge was also closed for a couple days and the city survived, so I guess we do not need that bridge either.

Essentially people are willing to make major changes for short periods of time for very special events. Again, I do hope transit usage does climb in the Vancouver area because of the Olympic experience and that such projects as the Evergreen Line, the extension to UBC and the downtown streetcar are fast tracked and built, but to have a properly functioning city core in a growing metro area vehicles (such as freight commercial, emergency, buses, etc...) will still need decent access to downtown and this is what the viaducts potentially provide.

Essentially, turning the surrounding streets into more transit, pedestrian and cycling friendly areas will greatly benefit by having the ducts carry all of the heavier traffic (again, commercial, industrial, etc...) that will still need to service downtown.

We have shown time and again here how the viaducts can be beneficial and be properly encouraged into the urban fabric (the local road network can also be designed to ensure that heavier traffic uses this artery, instead of roads such as Hastings) Again below the ducts the streetcar OMC can be built, parks can be built, commercial shopping areas, towers can be built between the ducts near GM place, towers can be built alongside them, offering cheaper condos so middle and lower class families can live closer to downtown without the need of social assistance, bike paths sheltered from the rain can be built under, etc...

I think one of their largest benefits is they will offer a grade separated crossing of the new streetcar system and will make the taking away of suface traffic lanes for the streetcar and cycling lanes far more easier.

OK, sorry for the rant again. But the area could become a very interesting and unique neighborhood, such as Granville Island, instead of another cut out vacationer condo block.

As for pedestrian only streets, I do believe Granville should become a pedestrian only street, but only if the city allows more noise, vendors, lights, performers and events to occur along the strip to keep it active and desirable such as they have during the Olympics. (A good middle step could be to make it pedestrian only during the weekends)

The only other two streets I believe that should become pedestrian only are Hamilton and Mainland streets. Yaletown was wonderful over the last two weeks having more music, vendors, noise and life in it. Those two streets have real promise to become very hip and fun places if such a level of entertainment were to be common place, again at least during the weekends. (and the C-line station right on Mainland again makes them perfect to become pedestrian malls)

[cabotp]

One thing I did notice during the past two weeks. With the closure of the viaducts. A lot of the north south bus routes in Vancouver that go through the downtown core along pender and hastings. Had major problems with being delayed. Now I only caught them a few times. But most of the time the buses coming out of downtown seemed not to be on schedule. This could be attributed to the extra amount of people on transit, or the closure of the viaducts causing a bottleneck through the DTES. But it would probably be safe to say that it was caused by a bit of both.

So before they even consider knocking down the viaducts they need to build some kind of mass transit line along hastings. That way bus routes like the #3,#8,#20 and #20 would not have to enter downtown. They would just go to hasting and turn around. Thus avoiding the hastings corridor.

Or if they would like they need to have bus only lanes on hastings and probably pender with no parking most of the day.

[WBC]

Well based on my non-scientific observations from the morning Sky Train commute everything is back to normal. Transit is back to normal levels and everybody else is back in their cars.

Experiences from my office downtown are in line with what people have posted above (about 200 people in the office - average age probably around high 30s - low 40s):

- everybody that could avoid coming to the office did by working from home
- a lot of people took 2 weeks off
- people who normally commute by transit continued to do so
- as a result the office was a ghost-town during the games

So I would not derive any conclusions about traffic/transit patterns based on that 2 week period other then that if you make things free people will come. Well, doh!!!

[Metro-One]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that, the fact that with an Olympic ticket you were given free transit was a major incentive to use transit. I am sure if you made it free all the time the usage would skyrocket, as would anything if it were always free. ( For example, we had over a hundred thousand people come through the doors where I worked everyday for the Olympics, Yahoo Fancouver, simply because we had free pictures and hot chocolate, I am sure we would have had 50% or less of the same numbers if the photos and hot chocolate cost money.)

[s211]

Originally Posted by WBC

- a lot of people took 2 weeks off
- people who normally commute by transit continued to do so
- as a result the office was a ghost-town during the games

The percentage of downtown workers that bailed for the two weeks is likely larger than we might first think.

Chatting to several people in my industry that work downtown, and overhearing conversations at Bentall's fitness centre, I came to the conclusion that the higher one is up the corporate ladder, the more likely one bailed, and those are the cats more likely to drive than take transit.

I was amazed at the proportion of people that bailed.

[sacrifice333]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that, the fact that with an Olympic ticket you were given free transit was a major incentive to use transit.

I was thinking that the City should mandate that all major entertainment tickets with audiences greater than X (hockey, concerts, large scale show, etc.) should be sold with transit inclusive in the price, just like the Olympic tix.

[Stingray2004]

And on the flip side of the coin:

1. Keep the Viaducts;

2. Enhance their efficiency with the construction of the Malkin Connector to provide better systems-wide transportation connectivity;

And further down the food chain, look at making 1st Ave. more liveable by listening to residents concerns as confirmed by this May 15, 2001 City of Vancouver administrative report entitled "East First Avenue Traffic Impact Mitigation":

Some residents along the street still feel that the impacts of traffic on their livability cannot be adequately addressed until their curb-side parking is restored by narrowing the center median between Nanaimo and Rupert Streets.

Other residents feel that the impacts of traffic on their livability cannot be adequately addressed until First Avenue is reduced to one lane of traffic in each direction, with the surplus demand being diverted to other new or existing streets.

· The meeting participants generally felt that First Avenue should no longer be required to carry so many cars and that an alternate connection to Highway 1 should be built on some other arterial street (or in the Grandview Cut).

· Close the First Avenue access to Highway 1.....this neighbourhood has endured the traffic too long. It should go to other arterials, like Hastings Street or the Grandview Cut.

· The participants generally agreed that First Avenue should no longer be required to carry so many cars and that an alternate connection to Highway 1 should be built on some other arterial street.

· The City's policy of "no more highways" should be revoked.... and a new roadway should be built in the Grandview Cut.

http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/010605/tt4.htm



Source: City of Vancouver, 1972 TCH 1 East Connector

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

The only other two streets I believe that should become pedestrian only are Hamilton and Mainland streets. Yaletown was wonderful over the last two weeks having more music, vendors, noise and life in it. Those two streets have real promise to become very hip and fun places if such a level of entertainment were to be common place, again at least during the weekends. (and the C-line station right on Mainland again makes them perfect to become pedestrian malls)

I totally agree!!! I couldnt help notice how amazing it was to be able to walk down those streets and actually hear music being played out on the sidewalks. Seriously, this city needs to allow music to be played on patios etc and learn to say 🞵🞵🞵🞵 off to all the losers that complain its too loud.

Correct me if im wrong but I thought the city was looking at changing that stupid bylaw, anyone know? (Jlousa)

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

And on the flip side of the coin:

1. Keep the Viaducts;

2. Enhance their efficiency with the construction of the Malkin Connector to provide better systems-wide transportation connectivity;

And further down the food chain, look at making 1st Ave. more liveable by listening to residents concerns as confirmed by this May 15, 2001 City of Vancouver administrative report entitled "East First Avenue Traffic Impact Mitigation":

This is exactly what I have always thought. A lot of people will disagree with me but i think sometimes building a highway is actually a good thing. It would return hastings and 1st ave etc back to local streets as apposed to having them as major thoroughfares. I picture something like The D'carie in montreal, you dont notice it yet it is able to efficiently move traffic without clogging up local streets.

Of course this will never happen in vancouver.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Where would you fit the Millennium Line in this diagram? Are you suggesting we completely rebuild 4 km of 10-year-old SkyTrain guideway? IMO we have passed the time where it would be feasible to put a road down Grandview Cut, the decision to use the corridor for SkyTrain has put an end to that, and now we should only consider that corridor as potentially useful for commuter rail.

[BCPhil]

If you built the Malkin Connector so that it had dual left turn lanes off of Clarke, there would be no need for a road down the Grandview cut. If traffic could easily turn on/off the Malkin Connector then traffic from Knight/Clarke, Grandview/12th, Lougheed/Broadway, and 1st would all have easy access to the Viaducts. It would be much more efficient than the mess that there is currently in the Main and Terminal area.

If there is space for anything in the cut, we should consider doubling the track and bringing WCE style service from the burbs south of Fraser through there (under the Malkin Connector to Waterfront) and increase VIA and Amtrak service. If the Skytrain system sees significant spikes in usage at peak times, it might be cheaper to introduce direct to downtown commuter service (at a premium ticket price) than spend billions to extend station platforms.